Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah - close in fielders is a bit much to ask I reckon unless you're doing so well that you've got them totally tied down. Other than that people are gonna end up in hospital and a lot of people are self employed these days and that's never a good thing! I generally have a captain who knows how I bowl and he sets my field and adapts it as the overs roll over, but recently the new bloke who asks me what I want, he doesn't seem so confident in setting my field hence the request from me to make the decisions.

I'd have blokes at

1. Slips
2. Gully
3. Point
4. Extra cover
5. Long Off
6. Mid Wicket
7. Square Leg
8. Deep Square Leg
9. Fine Leg

How's that sound or is that a pile of twaddle? That's what I'd do for starters and see how it goes with bowling line on the off-stump looking to turn it away from the bat.

my idea of a "perfect" field is...

1. Slip - about 6 feet wide of the wicket keeper, and 6 feet from the stumps. more at 45 degs than a conventional slip
2. Silly point (or a close gully if no-one feels brave)
3. Point
4. Cover
5. Long-on
6. Mid wicket
7. Deep forward square leg
8. Short fine leg
9. Short mid-on

basically gifting the batsman a 4 through the mid-off region if he wants to take me on. forcing anything square on the off side to be hit high to clear fielders or along the floor for a single. and defending the leg side quite rigorously.

in reality im not yet accurate enough to justify the field though. and nobody ever wants to field at silly point. so id probably put the silly point out on the offside boundary (deep cover point maybe), the short mid-on at normal mid-on, the long-on at long-off, and the slip at square leg.

with regards people being scared/worried about fielding in close, i actually dont mind it. i offered my services there at the weekend but nobody was bothered about having a close fielder. im not sure the close fielder will ever take a catch at club level unless it loops up off a top edge or bat pad. but its a deterrent and a distraction for the batsman to play reckless shots. silly mid-on is probably a safer proposition at club level. either way a helmet is essential, and quick enough reactions to jump out of the way the second the batsman raises his blade lol.

 

[shrek]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah - close in fielders is a bit much to ask I reckon unless you're doing so well that you've got them totally tied down. Other than that people are gonna end up in hospital and a lot of people are self employed these days and that's never a good thing! I generally have a captain who knows how I bowl and he sets my field and adapts it as the overs roll over, but recently the new bloke who asks me what I want, he doesn't seem so confident in setting my field hence the request from me to make the decisions.

I'd have blokes at

1. Slips
2. Gully
3. Point
4. Extra cover
5. Long Off
6. Mid Wicket
7. Square Leg
8. Deep Square Leg
9. Fine Leg

How's that sound or is that a pile of twaddle? That's what I'd do for starters and see how it goes with bowling line on the off-stump looking to turn it away from the bat.

Why use a square leg when you have a deep square leg ? And having no protection whatsoever at long on/ mid on seems a little off to me. If I'm falling short of fielders , I'd much rather leave the midwicket region vacant - so that the batsman has to play with a closed face against the spin (chances of leading edge) than leave the mid on region open, where he just needs to drive straight.

My field is something like this: when I start off -
(Boundary) sweeper cover, long off, long on, deep square leg, deep midwicket,
(In circle fielders) wide slip, point, cover, midwicket

Once I get a semblance of control, and depending on the amount of spin I'm getting, I bring in the sweeper cover to extra cover in the circle making the batsman try to hit me over the infield to get those runs. My fielders within the circle are there to trap the batsman on strike and dry up the runs. And most of the batsman I've encountered were also confident and attacking types who would go after the spinner. If I'm getting good spin and bounce, I leave the deep midwicket region open asking the batsman to slog against the spin - (although ive seen batsman do it successfully, it is a high-risk shot),

Short fine leg is optional - depending on whether the batsmen are playing sweep a lot - in which case he;s liable to get a topedge from the extra bounce that i generate. Otherwise , I leave that region open, as I rarely stray down the legside.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

my idea of a "perfect" field is...

1. Slip - about 6 feet wide of the wicket keeper, and 6 feet from the stumps. more at 45 degs than a conventional slip
2. Silly point (or a close gully if no-one feels brave)
3. Point
4. Cover
5. Long-on
6. Mid wicket
7. Deep forward square leg
8. Short fine leg
9. Short mid-on

basically gifting the batsman a 4 through the mid-off region if he wants to take me on. forcing anything square on the off side to be hit high to clear fielders or along the floor for a single. and defending the leg side quite rigorously.

in reality im not yet accurate enough to justify the field though. and nobody ever wants to field at silly point. so id probably put the silly point out on the offside boundary (deep cover point maybe), the short mid-on at normal mid-on, the long-on at long-off, and the slip at square leg.

with regards people being scared/worried about fielding in close, i actually dont mind it. i offered my services there at the weekend but nobody was bothered about having a close fielder. im not sure the close fielder will ever take a catch at club level unless it loops up off a top edge or bat pad. but its a deterrent and a distraction for the batsman to play reckless shots. silly mid-on is probably a safer proposition at club level. either way a helmet is essential, and quick enough reactions to jump out of the way the second the batsman raises his blade lol.

I'll draw that out and have a look at it and see if it makes any sense to me. You bat as well Shrek don't you?

 

[Paulinho]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I think the leg spin field found on this page is a good place to start

Field placings for spinners | Cricket coaching, fitness and tips

I don't think I've even had a batsman straight drive me or glace me down to fine leg so I find fine leg and mid off redundant. I like to start with a ring field on the off side saving the singles and the men in the deep on the leg side if they fancy a slog, maybe bring these deep fielders in if I'm bowling well.

with any field you set bowling in the right areas is obviously massivly important so with this field I'll try and bowl a middle and off line and try a build pressure and maybe beat the bat a few times. hopefully the batsman will get frustrated and try and hit into the leg side against the spin and make a mistake. This can all change of course depending on how strong a leg side player the batsman is or if I'm having a shocker.

I've always though that giving the batsman an area he can score in that will eventually be his down fall is one of the keys to taking wickets. one problem is that many of your team mates or even captain will not understand why you have asked for an area to be exposed as part of your grand plan.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Macca,

Have you read the book 'Cricket - The Australian Way' by Jack Pollard. I've come across a link on the internet that explains....

"Years later came the flipper, a bosey or wrong-un which hastens off the pitch with top spin. Very few, probably not more than half a dozen, have been able to bowl it and all who acquired it did so only after years of practice. Bruce Dooland says in this book that the flipper was invented by wrist spinner Clarrie Grimmett in Grimmett’s fortieth year. Richie Benaud bowled it when he was in his prime, and was the only bowler in the world then using it.

Benaud learnt the flipper from Dooland, during his term at Nottingham frequently mesmerised English batsman with it. Nothing bowled in English cricket at that time could so completely surprise a batsman such as the flipper".

The interesting thing here is that the Flipper is described as a Top-Spinner and then it goes on to suggest that several other people bowled the Top-Spinning Flipper including Benuad. I always thought that Benaud bowled the back-spinning Flipper? Can you throw any light on these claims especially the claim that the Top-Spinning Flipper was one of Benauds balls. I thought that the Top-Spinner variant was unique to Grimmett and that it was pretty much lost to history and only described in Grimmetts old books?

Here's a good article about Warne written by Mike Atherton http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/cricket/article1560273.ece

 

[Paulinho]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Macca,

Have you read the book 'Cricket - The Australian Way' by Jack Pollard. I've come across a link on the internet that explains....

"Years later came the flipper, a bosey or wrong-un which hastens off the pitch with top spin. Very few, probably not more than half a dozen, have been able to bowl it and all who acquired it did so only after years of practice. Bruce Dooland says in this book that the flipper was invented by wrist spinner Clarrie Grimmett in Grimmett’s fortieth year. Richie Benaud bowled it when he was in his prime, and was the only bowler in the world then using it.

Benaud learnt the flipper from Dooland, during his term at Nottingham frequently mesmerised English batsman with it. Nothing bowled in English cricket at that time could so completely surprise a batsman such as the flipper".

The interesting thing here is that the Flipper is described as a Top-Spinner and then it goes on to suggest that several other people bowled the Top-Spinning Flipper including Benuad. I always thought that Benaud bowled the back-spinning Flipper? Can you throw any light on these claims especially the claim that the Top-Spinning Flipper was one of Benauds balls. I thought that the Top-Spinner variant was unique to Grimmett and that it was pretty much lost to history and only described in Grimmetts old books?

I saw benaud bowl an odd delivery on an MCC coaching video years ago. it was a ball with the seam spinning horizontally to the ground so the ball landed on the smooth surface of the ball rather than the seam. He called it a flipper at the time. I've never seem an instructional vid featuring this before or since. does anyone bowl this? it reminds me of your decriptions of grimmet although I don't know much about the man other than what I have read here and his profile on cricinfo.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I saw benaud bowl an odd delivery on an MCC coaching video years ago. it was a ball with the seam spinning horizontally to the ground so the ball landed on the smooth surface of the ball rather than the seam. He called it a flipper at the time. I've never seem an instructional vid featuring this before or since. does anyone bowl this? it reminds me of your decriptions of grimmet although I don't know much about the man other than what I have read here and his profile on cricinfo.

Yeah The Flipper is shrouded in complete mystery, I've always been under the impression that Benaud bowled the Flipper in the style of Terry Jenner and Shane Warne - clicked from beneath the hand with back-spin (See the vids on youtube). But this new info suggests that Benaud bowled it as a Top-Spinner as Grimmett did - till now I was under the impression that it was only Grimmett that ever bowled the Top-Spinning Flipper. All that I've ever read about Benaud and stuff that I've read by Benaud on the internet it's always been in the context of a back-spinning flipper.

Did he really bowl the Top-Spinning Flipper?

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

i still think that professional leg spinners like to wind everyone up by changing their definitions of everything all of the time. Warne has described his slider in about 5 different ways over the years, he raved about his "zooter" in his early years, which he then completely removed from his armoury, seemingly, and has never mentioned since. then youve got Benaud talking about flippers as both back spinners and top spinners (ive heard him refer to a flipper as a straight delivery that zips through and stays low, so thats a backspinner in my mind, no 2 ways about it). i think they do it just to prove to themselves how completely mesmerised everyone is by it all.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

i still think that professional leg spinners like to wind everyone up by changing their definitions of everything all of the time. Warne has described his slider in about 5 different ways over the years, he raved about his "zooter" in his early years, which he then completely removed from his armoury, seemingly, and has never mentioned since. then youve got Benaud talking about flippers as both back spinners and top spinners (ive heard him refer to a flipper as a straight delivery that zips through and stays low, so thats a backspinner in my mind, no 2 ways about it). i think they do it just to prove to themselves how completely mesmerised everyone is by it all.

I think we can safely say that the only people on the planet that have ever bowled the Top-Spinning Flipper are.....

Clarrie Grimmett
Gundalf
Saddo aka Sad Spinner
Me

LOL! Anyone else claim they can? Or more important does anyone else know of any first class cricketers that claim to bowl it?

PS Why are we writing this in this un-official wrist Spin Thread?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I should correct this he didn't bowl it himself but it's what he was demonstating as the flipper to some young fella.

I might buy this as it's cheap and clear up this issue maybe?

 

[GoldenArm]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Hey everyone, new to this forum business. finally some people i can discuss leg spin with! i actually used to own that MCC coaching video but it has sadly disappeared. my granddad bought it for me and it was the first time i was introduced to leg spin, i can credit it with instilling the passion for leggies in me at a young age. i still have the accompanying book on my bookshelf right at this moment.Just reading through it now Benaud mentions the flipper:

'the flipper is actually bowled from beneath the wrist and is squeezed out of the fingers so that it is spinning around its own axis all the way down the pitch'

which sounds like the traditional flipper you click out a la the Jenner BBC videos. but he goes on to say:

'the effect is that it will skid straight through or sometimes move off the pitch from off to leg once it hits the surface'

its this part i find odd. i only started bowling the flipper in games this season after spending many hours simply clicking a ball from hand to hand in the same way i learnt to put revs on my leg break. When i bowl it it either skids straight and low or i accidently don't release the seam straight and it becomes a strange variation on a leg break which turns a bit but drags and slows off the pitch.rather like the one in the Jenner video. it can go horribly wrong and get tonked or sometimes completely catches the batsman unaware! Never have i seen one turn like a wrong 'un. This part does make it sound like Clarrie's wrong wrong 'un but the method he describes doesn't fit. very strange. also anyone here had any success with the slider? its the one delivery i just can't seem to get the gist of.

i've also got an even older MCC coaching manual from the fifties (if anyone is interested) where the leg spin section is written by none other than C.V Grimmett himself. i've spent many happy hours going through them both as well as Getting Wickets. i'll take some photos and put them on my blog if people show some interest.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I might buy this as it's cheap and clear up this issue maybe?

I have not seen the video, it could clear something up if he gets into the " flipper loop" . i have read the benaud chapter in the mcc book. There benaud gives much the same advice as he does in other books.

Benaud comes out of the whole flipper story the worst i am afraid. Remember I found stories of Grimmett as an old man ( Age newspaper 1976 for example) concerned Benaud was taking credit for inventing the flipper. Benaud kept the flipper secret more than anyone.

Benaud never really gives much beyond the basics of legspin, unlike Grimmett and Philpott, who gave us the old and new testament of legbreak bowling. Armed with their bible you dont need benuads threadbare advise.

His advise is basically legspin is so hard and the flipper in particular so difficult to bowl, unless you are extremely talented , try something else.

Benaud was not an inventive bowler but he probably worked out how to bowl the topspinning flipper, I even seem to remember him talking about it on tv. H e could not though work out what jack potter was bowling in the mid 60's up close and in the nets. this ball was probably grimmetts " off-break flipper".Cec Pepper also bowled this one.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Hey everyone, new to this forum business. finally some people i can discuss leg spin with! i actually used to own that MCC coaching video but it has sadly disappeared. my granddad bought it for me and it was the first time i was introduced to leg spin, i can credit it with instilling the passion for leggies in me at a young age. i still have the accompanying book on my bookshelf right at this moment.Just reading through it now Benaud mentions the flipper:

'the flipper is actually bowled from beneath the wrist and is squeezed out of the fingers so that it is spinning around its own axis all the way down the pitch'

which sounds like the traditional flipper you click out a la the Jenner BBC videos. but he goes on to say:

'the effect is that it will skid straight through or sometimes move off the pitch from off to leg once it hits the surface'

its this part i find odd. i only started bowling the flipper in games this season after spending many hours simply clicking a ball from hand to hand in the same way i learnt to put revs on my leg break. When i bowl it it either skids straight and low or i accidently don't release the seam straight and it becomes a strange variation on a leg break which turns a bit but drags and slows off the pitch.rather like the one in the Jenner video. it can go horribly wrong and get tonked or sometimes completely catches the batsman unaware! Never have i seen one turn like a wrong 'un. This part does make it sound like Clarrie's wrong wrong 'un but the method he describes doesn't fit. very strange. also anyone here had any success with the slider? its the one delivery i just can't seem to get the gist of.

i've also got an even older MCC coaching manual from the fifties (if anyone is interested) where the leg spin section is written by none other than C.V Grimmett himself. i've spent many happy hours going through them both as well as Getting Wickets. i'll take some photos and put them on my blog if people show some interest.

What you describe is how the correct backspinning flipper goes for most(?). In theory anyway.

Grimmetts wrong wrongun is daves gipper. the flipper is bowled out of the back of the hand and spins like a legbreak. a double bluff ball.

Mate, you are going to fit in here well. It is all legspin here.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

pitch from off to leg once it hits the surface'

also anyone here had any success with the slider? its the one delivery i just can't seem to get the gist of.

QUOTE]

We have been talking about several "sliders" here. The inside of the hand backspinner ( Jenner video) and several outside of the hand ones.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

'the effect is that it will skid straight through or sometimes move off the pitch from off to leg once it hits the surface

i've also got an even older MCC coaching manual from the fifties (if anyone is interested) where the leg spin section is written by none other than C.V Grimmett himself. i've spent many happy hours going through them both as well as Getting Wickets. i'll take some photos and put them on my blog if people show some interest.

Welcome first of all.

Mine usually goes like an offbreak and keeps low. As we discussed before it is due to the wrist position on release. I think if your arm is vertical it is easier to get it to go straight or move leg to off.

About the 50's manual it sounds promising, if you could share a few of grimmetts tips with us, we would be really happy.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

pitch from off to leg once it hits the surface'

also anyone here had any success with the slider? its the one delivery i just can't seem to get the gist of.

QUOTE]

We have been talking about several "sliders" here. The inside of the hand backspinner ( Jenner video) and several outside of the hand ones.

yeah - welcome to Golden Arm - hope to see you on here a lot.

I had a go at the 2 up 2 down grip conventional leg break grip and then let the ball come out of the hand with the 2 fingers sliding down the back of it putting back-spin on it so the seam is spinning over itself 90 degrees to the pitch version. The one where it can land on the smooth side or on the seam - like a seamers delivery with the seam across. That's my slider and I'm happy with that.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

MCC Cricket Masterclass - Vol. 1 - Batting, Bowling And Captaincy [1994] [VHS]: Tony Lewis, Viv Richards, Geoff Boycott, David Gower, Richie Benaud, Mike Brearley: Amazon.co.uk: Video

this is the video I've seen Benaud bowl the horizontal seam "flipper"

I had seen this on amazon about a year ago, but sadly disposed of my video player. Unfortunately, they do not seem to have a dvd of it.

But as Macca said, Benaud does not seem to say much about legspin on the sources I have seen. He just goes on the basics of the legbreak(without reference to big or small legbreaks), the googly and the flipper. He states that you have to land them regularly on a coin, which I think is hogwash. I doubt that even the worlds best leggies would manage this. Grimmett states on a handkerchief , jenner says a big target area, philpott middle and off to a righthander, and warne that you have to have a plan and not think of landing ball after ball on the same spot.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Hey everyone, new to this forum business. finally some people i can discuss leg spin with! i actually used to own that MCC coaching video but it has sadly disappeared. my granddad bought it for me and it was the first time i was introduced to leg spin, i can credit it with instilling the passion for leggies in me at a young age. i still have the accompanying book on my bookshelf right at this moment.Just reading through it now Benaud mentions the flipper:

'the flipper is actually bowled from beneath the wrist and is squeezed out of the fingers so that it is spinning around its own axis all the way down the pitch'

which sounds like the traditional flipper you click out a la the Jenner BBC videos. but he goes on to say:

'the effect is that it will skid straight through or sometimes move off the pitch from off to leg once it hits the surface'

its this part i find odd. i only started bowling the flipper in games this season after spending many hours simply clicking a ball from hand to hand in the same way i learnt to put revs on my leg break. When i bowl it it either skids straight and low or i accidently don't release the seam straight and it becomes a strange variation on a leg break which turns a bit but drags and slows off the pitch.rather like the one in the Jenner video. it can go horribly wrong and get tonked or sometimes completely catches the batsman unaware! Never have i seen one turn like a wrong 'un. This part does make it sound like Clarrie's wrong wrong 'un but the method he describes doesn't fit. very strange. also anyone here had any success with the slider? its the one delivery i just can't seem to get the gist of.

i've also got an even older MCC coaching manual from the fifties (if anyone is interested) where the leg spin section is written by none other than C.V Grimmett himself. i've spent many happy hours going through them both as well as Getting Wickets. i'll take some photos and put them on my blog if people show some interest.

Yeah definitely post up the Grimmett stuff from the 50's!

 

[GoldenArm]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

i think you're dead right about Benaud. His maudlin and thin explanation of leg spin is ok for getting you intrigued but its not a patch on The Art of Wrist Spin Bowling or Getting Wickets. Judging from that Bruce Dooland story he tells the flipper had suddenly become a big secret in the 60's which is a bit odd. Slider-wise, i'm talking about the one Jenner or Warne specifically called THE slider. as in the one released between the 3rd and 4th finger. The one which is explained far, far better in Philpotts book. the theory makes perfect sense to me but i just cannot fathom how the hell you are supposed to bowl it! i think this may be the only one to elude me without someone to show it to me in person. there's only so much you can teach yourself from books.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

yeah - welcome to Golden Arm - hope to see you on here a lot.

I had a go at the 2 up 2 down grip conventional leg break grip and then let the ball come out of the hand with the 2 fingers sliding down the back of it putting back-spin on it so the seam is spinning over itself 90 degrees to the pitch version. The one where it can land on the smooth side or on the seam - like a seamers delivery with the seam across. That's my slider and I'm happy with that.

That is a classic slider. Former test spinners Mc Gill and Mathews on the recent ashes coverage where calling that slider "the richie benaud topspinner" and had a great laugh about it.

Swanee got Katich a beauty with the offspinners version in one test.