Wrist Spin Bowling

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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;348881 said:
So Jenners description of this ball is the "Finger flicking Googly" Top spin and breaks like an off-spin ball. The continuing issue here is one of semantics when Jenner says Flicking are we to assume he really means 'Clicking'?

How on earth did you get Jenners email address?

You'll be emailing Warne next Macca?!
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Jenners email address is on his blogsite, and he answered me in less than 24 hours. If Jenner were to study Grimmetts book he would work it out and probably would bring it up in his next conversation with Warnie, I am surprised that I got such quick and sincere response from both men, Mallett in particular was influenced by Bradman, who tried to answer all his mail, even though he recieved on average hunreds of letters a day! The post master had to set up a virtual seperate post office in Bradmans area just to handle his mail.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

What exactly do you mean by the traffic cop sign. They usaully have lots of them. A diagram would do very fine thank you.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I was going to mention how I know of a couple of blokes who have managed to bowl it, dave and gundalf, but I was trying to be brief, but will mention it if I hear from him again.
Have you got a clip of you bowling it Dave? I could have linked it to my question, I sent both men plate 14 but maybe they did not open the file. The photo is conclusive ,it was either an overspinner or a giant hoax. Grimmetts training as a signwriter ( man of letters in a sense) would have seen him cast a keen eye over the final draft so I rule out it being a mistake.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I just used traffic cop to describe the forced and exaggerated position I get my young bloke to assume with his hand in practise against the wall to make sure he is legspinning the ball, the other deliveries we also do this also, I suppose the backspinner could be a sort of karate chop, but dave has already claimed that description for the reverse flipper.

When he is not exaggerating and bowling proper, I would describe his hand position just after release as a bit like how a lady is supposed to hold a cup of tea or someone giving an AOK sign, with the 4th finger sort of sticking out. I think that is what Philpott means when he said he and Johnny Martin ( leftarm wristspinner) when they bowled together could tell each other were both bowling well when their 4th fingers looked like that.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

If you give me a week or so to recover from the last attempts at bowling it because I think it's pulled muscles or tendons in my arm. Turning your wrist inwards like that and bringing the arm over in that manner seemingly uses muscles that are not used ever it seems! But in the name of wrist spin experimentation if I recover I'll try it. I'm not surprised that Jenner says he could only do it over a short distance! Gundalf could you do this - you're the young 'un on here with the flexible muscles and a faster recovery potential!

On another earlier subject with EOW here's my footfall positions through my rotation roatation+2.jpg (image) for an explanation have a look at my blog Wrist Spin Bowling but I think you were on about something else - maybe the foot at the initial position 'A'?

I just looked at Jenners blog and the email link - I can't believe I missed that!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

i've managed to have a practice this evening and had a go at bowling the topspinning flipper the grimmett way. It was awkward to bowl at first but at first they were all turning like off spinners with some top spin which seems to be a useful variation in its own right. Bowling with a high arm it seems nigh on impossible to bowl but once I switched to a more grimmettesque round arm action and 15 mins later with a bit of practice I found it is possible. It really does spit onto the batsman if you can get it right and stay low mostly. Accuracy wasn't great but it definitely has the potential to be a really useful ball for leggies.
On a weird note though a couple really dug in like a crazy topspinner and bounced really high though i'm not sure why as most kept lowish.
I'll try and upload the footage once i've edited out the wides.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

If you look at Grimmetts arm in plate 14 he has developed what looks like to me strong muscles and ligaments in his forearms and wrists. Maybe building it up over 12 years developed this. Maybe it was pain like daves that made Pepper; Dooland etc bowl the "easier" backspinner?

There is one shot of him playing golf with Bradman and though both were short , Grimmett looked more wiry and muscular than Bradman in the wrists and forearms. Imagine when they were still friends and played tennis, Bradman beat most of the Wimbledon champions of the thirties at tennis! and would have won Wimbledon if he had stuck to tennis, and Grimmett was the master of spinning a tennis ball with a racket as well as the cricket ball! We are talking of two of the greatest ball players of all time.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I've got tennis elbow it seems and I'm going to have to rest up and it seems more than likely it's been caused by the leg breaks rather than the flippers. I tried bowling the leg breaks tonight and it's obvious the new wrist action is the cause of the problem. I've just been looking up different medical websites and their description fits the symptoms and the general advice is to rest it. So I'm resting.

I like Macca's description of the ladies holding the cups of tea - that's a classic! My interpretation of Macca's traffic cop is the hand held up straight pointed at the batsman in a 'Stop' kind of manner.

I'm just in the process of uploading a clip of my feet position coming into and leaving my rotation so that EOW can have a look. It'll be a while though.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;348877 said:
What I am surprised at though as you say, is the fact that your countries top legspinners would have never analysed, read and reread , studied and practiced what grimmett says. He got all this through hours of experimentation and observation. But if he did not perfect it over all those years, I doubt how many will manage. On the other hand Warne would tell you he 'only' had is legbreak and flipper and non spinning leg break/zooter/slider and took bucket loads.......But the bottom line is as you say is the fact that they never seem to have read these books. It is comparing this to becoming a doctor without ever having seen a patient (the most classic of textbooks).
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It does not surprise me really, even though when I was a kid every library had coaching manuals by the great players, it was not the Australian way to learn cricket from books, the cricket culture was so strong 40 years ago nearly every kid aquired good technique more by osmosis or direct instruction, so books were not really necessary and seemed like schoolwork to a lot of youngsters.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I never even thought of taking Grimmetts round arm into account like gundalf said . That has to be considered. Jenner said he could only bowl those two balls he described in his email with a low arm action.

Grimmett maintained his roundarm was a bit of an illusion and when he released the ball his arm is up there in a pretty normal position.

From what the spindoctor said in his email he has not even thought about trying the reverse flipper and does not even think it possible. I would have a hard time convincing anyone if they knew Mallett and Jenner thought what I was telling them was crap. I mean who am I?. The only people in the world who get it are the few people on this thread it seems. To me the whole thing is unbelievable. They may think I am crazy or badly mistaken but really they are calling Grimmett a liar or a hoax in his 1948 book, which neither seems to have read.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah I've got scrawny arms in comparison. I've just sat here clicking my fingers to see if that creates any sense of discomfort and it doesn't, But what does though is the pressing of the middle and third fingers with a straight arm and wrist as in my new Leg Break! So maybe this current pain hasn't been caused by the Grimmett mystery ball after all?

Macca when either you or your son (or anyone else) bowl your leg breaks especially anything that's incorporating the flick of the wrist does the flick and the whip off the 3rd finger make a click/snap sound similar to the flipper click?

I've also come across an intermediate way of getting the ball to spin which is really affective. With the Googly syndrome if I've tried to bowl the ball with the cocked wrist it's still always ended up being a wrong un. But your recent description of the 'Traffic cops hand' has been the catalyst to a big step forward for me. Somewhere along the way for whatever reason I tried bowling my leg break starting with the cocked wrist but then just as you reach the point when you release the ball unfurl the wrist to assume the 'Traffic Cop position' at the point of the release and this at the minute is working a treat producing a lovely Leg Break better than I've ever had. Even when done ridiculously slow over a few yards you can see that the ball leaves the hand spinning at right angles to the direction of flight. I can only assume that the unfurling is akin to a slow or medium flick of the wrist? Whatever it is - it's working for me so cheers for that 'Traffic Cop' analogy!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

yeah dave i'll try and give the ball a go next time I have a practice, probablly in the next couple of days weather dependant.

I get a fair clicking when I bowl the leg break its louder the more you give the ball a rip generally
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;349118 said:
I never even thought of taking Grimmetts round arm into account like gundalf said . That has to be considered. Jenner said he could only bowl those two balls he described in his email with a low arm action.

Grimmett maintained his roundarm was a bit of an illusion and when he released the ball his arm is up there in a pretty normal position.

From what the spindoctor said in his email he has not even thought about trying the reverse flipper and does not even think it possible. I would have a hard time convincing anyone if they knew Mallett and Jenner thought what I was telling them was crap. I mean who am I?. The only people in the world who get it are the few people on this thread it seems. To me the whole thing is unbelievable. They may think I am crazy or badly mistaken but really they are calling Grimmett a liar or a hoax in his 1948 book, which neither seems to have read.
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See now there's a challenge for us and this quantifies what I've said in the past or alluded to that most wrist spinners don't go beyond bowling Leg Breaks, Toppies and wrong Uns. Maybe this is something to do with the coaching they all get and they're encouraged to focus on a limited range of deliveries? It also reinforces your belief that Grimmett was a cricket genius or had OCD!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The reading of books as I said yesterday is alien to most youngsters, more so even today than it was years ago. The internet is the way forward. Our thread here gets a lot of hits and it may encourage people to read further? But I'm not surprised that Grimmetts book is so obscure. Are you still having trouble getting a copy of Philpotts book?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;349119 said:
Here it is have a look - what am I doing wrong - what should be where?

YouTube - rotation analysis 001
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Looks very smooth. I think, as long as your bowling shoulder faces the batsman you are ok. From what i see, you have that unorthodox way of crossing your legs on getting into a side on position, and your non bowling arm is not tucked close into your ribs. But who am I to comment.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

gundalf7;348905 said:
yeah dave i'll try and give the ball a go next time I have a practice, probablly in the next couple of days weather dependant.

I get a fair clicking when I bowl the leg break its louder the more you give the ball a rip generally
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Ah - it sounds as though I'm finally getting this right, all I need now is to get the line and length sorted. Gundalf have a look at the post that's back a bit regarding the cocked wrist to the straight hand position - what do reckon to that theory/technique?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;349118 said:
I never even thought of taking Grimmetts round arm into account like gundalf said . That has to be considered. Jenner said he could only bowl those two balls he described in his email with a low arm action

From what the spindoctor said in his email he has not even thought about trying the reverse flipper and does not even think it possible. I would have a hard time convincing anyone if they knew Mallett and Jenner thought what I was telling them was crap. I mean who am I?. The only people in the world who get it are the few people on this thread it seems. To me the whole thing is unbelievable. They may think I am crazy or badly mistaken but really they are calling Grimmett a liar or a hoax in his 1948 book, which neither seems to have read.
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Yes, I find it strange that a strange lot like legspinners, who practice more than other bowlers I presume, do not experiment with different deliveries and strategies. Maybe what they think is they prefer sticking to basics and being sure that they can reproduce these perfectly when in match conditions, than attempt deliveries they are not confident with. Once again I think it is a shame that certain books/classics remain out of print.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

the cocked wrist really seems to add that bit more rip if your bowling a bit more round arm as it adds that little bit more to the flick than the straight hand position as coming completely over the top is easier.

As for the hand to hand thing its hard to tell as pivoting while releasing the ball does add extra spin, so it may not look the same.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;349117 said:
I've got tennis elbow it seems and I'm going to have to rest up and it seems more than likely it's been caused by the leg breaks rather than the flippers. I tried bowling the leg breaks tonight and it's obvious the new wrist action is the cause of the problem. I've just been looking up different medical websites and their description fits the symptoms and the general advice is to rest it.
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Could it be you are gripping the ball too tightly and thus putting too much tension on your forearm extensors. Torsional movements eg repetitively opening/closing tight taps/doornobs or similar actions can cause your epicondylitis.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I think I've made a massive break through with this description that EOW and Macca came up with a couple of weeks ago (Traffic Cop). That and being able to get the Leg Break with the big flick down the track 22 yards. With both of these deliveries all I've got to do is tighten up the line and length and I reckon I'm there. Give it a month or so and I reckon I may have cracked it and hopefully this'll be reflected in my wicket taking and stats? But more importantly my general confidence I will at last be a Leg Spinner maybe?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;349112 said:
I just used traffic cop to describe the forced and exaggerated position I get my young bloke to assume with his hand in practise against the wall to make sure he is legspinning the ball, the other deliveries we also do this also, I suppose the backspinner could be a sort of karate chop, but dave has already claimed that description for the reverse flipper.

When he is not exaggerating and bowling proper, I would describe his hand position just after release as a bit like how a lady is supposed to hold a cup of tea or someone giving an AOK sign, with the 4th finger sort of sticking out. I think that is what Philpott means when he said he and Johnny Martin ( leftarm wristspinner) when they bowled together could tell each other were both bowling well when their 4th fingers looked like that.
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When you said before, that you bowl into the wall
1 How far away from a wall would you stay
2 Do you bowl against the wall ie you do not let it bounce onto the floor before the wall I presume.
3 Do you include any run up or is it a standstill release?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;348899 said:
On another earlier subject with EOW here's my footfall positions through my rotation roatation+2.jpg (image) for an explanation have a look at my blog Wrist Spin Bowling but I think you were on about something else - maybe the foot at the initial position 'A'?
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Nope, that's exactly what I was talking about. Your front-land lands in line with your back-foot, it should be landing to the right of it.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

yeah dave eow is right, this is why you see alot of leggies approach at a slight angle so that the pivot is slightly longer, your front foot after the pivot looks alright though. You don't want the following through foot landing completely side on like I do though as you end up falling over your ankle and it could cause a pretty bad ankle injury, something i'm working on solving atm.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The Edge Of Willow;348912 said:
Nope, that's exactly what I was talking about. Your front-land lands in line with your back-foot, it should be landing to the right of it.
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So where my foot A comes over and round the pivoting foot and ends up underneath the line in the diagram you're saying that it should stay above the line?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

yeah, I was surprised when I looked back at the video footage as it felt really awkward but it doesn't look to bad though the off break type ball looks slightly similar to the googly, though its released from slightly under the wrist its hard to tell the difference on the vid.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;348915 said:
So where my foot A comes over and round the pivoting foot and ends up underneath the line in the diagram you're saying that it should stay above the line?
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No, this is about where foot B lands. Sorry my last post was very ambiguous.
Foot B should land above the line.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

gundalf7;349132 said:
yeah, I was surprised when I looked back at the video footage as it felt really awkward but it doesn't look to bad though the off break type ball looks slightly similar to the googly, though its released under the wrist its hard to tell the difference on the vid.
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When I tried it it came out as a googly/offbreak with some topspin that was slightly faster off the pitch than the conventional toppie. But i have the impression that I tend to straighten the arm ie i think I chuck it.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

yeah i had the same feeling that maybe it was border on chucking, thinking about it there is some similarity to murali's off break if you think about it except spun by the thumb rather than the index finger
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Just something I missed on that last image: Foot A should be at about 90 degrees to the stumps for a side on action. It's position in the image is a midway action.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

gundalf7;349134 said:
yeah i had the same feeling that maybe it was border on chucking, thinking about it there is some similarity to murali's off break if you think about it except spun by the thumb rather than the index finger
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Yes that is true. In fact I thought the action is like a doosra but it turns the other way. It turns more than my mis guided googly.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

It's a difficult thing to film any bowling delivery without the right kind of gear. I reckon I'm probably in a better position than most to do this stuff and I'm quite liking the angle/perspective on todays video clip because the camera is on a big tripod above and behind me and you're able to see the whole of my action including the grip and release almost.

The reason the delivery is slows is that it was done slowly in order that the ball didn't disappear down the road. This was just a test to see if the angle was good and whethet I needed to change the focal length and zoom in slightly to bring the stumps into view/closer so you can see where the ball pitches and whether it spins.

Yeah - loads of people mention my cross over leg to enable me to get side on, I reckon I'm stuck with it for the time being though. The only real criticism is that it slows me down, but I can bowl at 47mph doing it relatively easy.
 
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