Back-Spinning Deliveries

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someblokecalleddave said:
Do it from a standing position - just rip the ball out of the hand in front of you and let go forwards and see it spin back like a flipper - but only better! As Jim says, if you get the Orthodox Back-Spinner slightly wrong it then has the capacity to be a big leg break, or if the seams scrambled then it becomes a 'Slider'? But yeah - flick it inwards but project it forward slightly over a short distance - it's bloody hard as you're suspecting when bowled over a distance with some oomph!
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As beginners practise you can also stand there and spin a legbreak hand to hand then turn your body 90 degrees right and try and keep spinning the same way but having the ball spinning back to you. sort of coming at it a bit different.

Bit of a lucky dip type of ball for me, sometimes it grips and kicks a bit tennis ballish especially slightly damp matting, sometimes it's a deadset mullygrubber. Sometimes a big but slowish legbreak.
 
I think we've pretty much got to the bottom of this now, I think I'm fairly certain what's happened with regards the names of the deliveries. I don't know about you - but I'm kind of amazed at how little credible evidence there is out there both in books and on the internet - especially the internet with regards these deleveries. For instance if you look up Zooter it's not long before you'll come across Jim, making him one of the top ten internet officianados in the world on the Zooter! I'm pretty sure that once I update my blog with all this new stuff I'll maintain the top spot for 'legspin' bowling for the forseeable future keeping Wikipedia at bay most days! I reckon I'll soon taking the top spot for 'Orthodox back-spinner' as well and putting the world to rights with regards it's righful name!
 
So, what do we call the one where you hold the ball 2 fingers up and 2 fingers down and bowl it without the wrist flick or use of the 3rd finger. Just simply dragging/flicking the 2 'Up' fingers down the back of the ball like a seam bowler so that the ball is released cross seam or badly scrambled?
 
the method i'm going to use is like a ************** child of the slider and the orthodox back spinner. i grip it two up two down, then rather than flicking it out the back of the hand or pushing it out of the front I whip the heel of the my hand downward (karate chop? but its the palm rather than the knife blade of my hand) pulling back very strongly on the ball with my spinning finger. what effect this will produce on the ball over 22 yards i shall report back when i know... in theory the seam should be scrambled because from that position the shiny side of the ball will be pointed at the target. all it is is a big leg break bowled from under the hand rather than from the side. i do know its harder to control hand to hand than it is to do it just standing up bowling it in my lounge with a soft ball, because the whipping action is both pulling the ball towards myself then whipping it away again very quickly. it also makes an enormous click as my 3rd finger snaps around the ball! this may be a better variation to use than my flipper if i can get it right, the flipper is so difficult to land accurately. the only problem i have with it is that it is so similar to a leg break it might interfere. i like to have my delivery methods very cleanly ordered in my head so i don't suffer from anything like googly syndrome. its taken me years to understand the mechanics of what i was doing then put them into practice. i think i've actually had OBSS (orthodox back-spinner syndrome lol) in the past when ive been trying to achieve the big flick. a couple of years ago i kept losing my turn and couldn't work out for the life of me why because it felt like i was putting loads of action on the ball.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
I think we've pretty much got to the bottom of this now, I think I'm fairly certain what's happened with regards the names of the deliveries. I don't know about you - but I'm kind of amazed at how little credible evidence there is out there both in books and on the internet - especially the internet with regards these deleveries. For instance if you look up Zooter it's not long before you'll come across Jim, making him one of the top ten internet officianados in the world on the Zooter! I'm pretty sure that once I update my blog with all this new stuff I'll maintain the top spot for 'legspin' bowling for the forseeable future keeping Wikipedia at bay most days! I reckon I'll soon taking the top spot for 'Orthodox back-spinner' as well and putting the world to rights with regards it's righful name!
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Jim convinced me months ago that the zooter is the backspinner.
But when i saw that piece by bob simpson where he definately says it was philpotts backspinning toppie= zooter made it definate for me. Simpson played and coached with philpott for yonks and is an expert legspin coach.
Then there is that other piece where bob holland said he bowled the backspinning toppie and today it would be called a zooter.
 
i find the zooter easier to bowl hand to hand than across 22 yards. simply because your arm is bent hand to hand, and its way easier to get the wrist around. once you try to propel it the arm is much straighter, and you cant twist it as much, so its harder to get pure backspin. if i get time later il make a video of me bowling it between hands to demonstrate. as Dave says, its easiest if you propel the ball in front of you, but once you grasp it you wont need to, youll be able to twist the wrist enough to do it into your other hand, but still propelling it forwards.

GA - your description of chopping with the palm rather than the blade of the hand makes perfect sense, i can replicate it myself from that description. but you wont get clean backspin that way unless your elbow is double jointed. as you say, youll basically bowl an underhand leg break. it really is the blade of the hand that has to chop forwards, pivoting around the palm at the wrist.

think of it this way.... stand in front of a closed door with a round turn knob on it. place your left shoulder against the door, and face perpendicular to it. now put your right hand on the door so your palm is flat on the handle, and turn it. thats the wrist action. but you also have to use the fingers as if bowling a leg break to impart the spin.

now for my next trick - the backspun wrong'un.... ive been working on this for ages, and i havent got there yet, but it will come!! :D
 
macca said:
Jim convinced me months ago that the zooter is the backspinner.
But when i saw that piece by bob simpson where he definately says it was philpotts backspinning toppie= zooter made it definate for me. Simpson played and coached with philpott for yonks and is an expert legspin coach.
Then there is that other piece where bob holland said he bowled the backspinning toppie and today it would be called a zooter.
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Pretty much confirms then, that the OBS and the Zooter are one and the same and that all those explanations about pushing it out of the front of the hand with no spin are nonesense?

Back-spinning wrong un - got that over a short distance standing still - piece of cake. 22 yards I'd say is nigh on impossible, I'm pretty convinced that most mortals find the OBS impossible.
 
Dont know if anyone else seen it but the zooter got a lot of mentions in warnies new tv show last night.

Then james packer straight out asked him what was the difference between his mystery ball, his zooter and his zinger. By that stage warne was laughing his head off and he said there was no difference, they were all the same delivery they all went straight on.

But the funniest part of the show is how they have crossed the billy birmingham 12th man stuff with the muppets.
 
Sounds like a Zooter to me, the one that doesn't spin that much which is pushed out of the plam of the hand - which is a Warne description. It's all Smoke and mirrors.
 
Who knows? It may be the leg break grip one, with the fingers slid down the back to put a bit of back-spin on it and no flick, so come out with the scrambled seam, if hits the smooth part of the ball it skids on, if it hits the seam it bounces weird.
 
GoldenArm said:
crackerjack! just the job seeing it slowed down like this.
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I've only looked quickly, I'll try and look again at home, but that looks like the one I call the Mickey Mouse slider as you say bowled out of the front of the hand with the fingers dragged down the ball, but it didn't even look as though he did that much so this maybe a Zooter? It certainly isn't an Orthodox Back Spinner. I think the people that have worked with Warne refer to the ball that is palmed out of the hand as a Zooter. Before the argument erupts again as to what is what, when it comes to slider, Zooters and the Orthodox Back-Spinner take a look at the ECB's spin DVD featuring Terry Jenner, he has an interesting take on the naming scenario and then goes and bowls an Orthodox Back Spinner beautifully and he just refers to it as The Back Spinner.
 
Kiran Rajkumar said:
In this video Shane Warne talks about his variations with replays from matches showing their release. The back spinner looks like it is palmed out with very little spin. This is probably the delivery that he later called as a zooter or a slider. Have a look http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM9425Mq_1k.
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Thats a great video. The first one Ive seen in such detail at the point of release from the hand. It would be great if we could get that detail on our videos.
 
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