someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
It does feel like it is getting better slowly, I noticed this evening I was walking around the house feeling normal and today I've been playing football again, it's the stairs that get me.
Back-Spinning Deliveries
- Thread starter someblokecalleddave
- Start date
It does feel like it is getting better slowly, I noticed this evening I was walking around the house feeling normal and today I've been playing football again, it's the stairs that get me.
Kiran Rajkumar
Member
Have a look at this beautiful slider Warne bowls to Jayasuriya.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNRYpJ4nwzY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNRYpJ4nwzY&feature=related
thats a leg break that just didn't turn, you can see theres loads of sidespin revs on it. the seam doesn't look scrambled enough to be entirely on purpose either. Jayasuriya just plays a lazy shot expecting it to turn a little, and it doesnt. the beauty of natural variations in spin. sometimes they just dont turn, but thats as good as if they do!
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Yeah I'm with Jim on this it looks like a Leg Break that's come out with a scrambled seam and it's landed on the smooth stuff and gone straight on. The term 'Slider' is a bit contentious anyway.
Kiran Rajkumar
Member
It's the same delivery that Danish Kaneria demonstrates as a flipper in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tigGj3Uh2j4.
Warne bowled it in the first match against KKR. It looks very similar to the big legbreak but instead of flicking it, it is pushed through. Mr.Muhammad Haroon's second course on leg spin bowling in pitchvision.com has instructions on how to bowl it. He too calls it a flipper.
What you describe is indeed the Warne slider, where he drags his fingers down the back of the ball and pushes it through, giving it a little backspin, and it skids on and goes straight. I bowl this delivery myself and it's the easiest of all my variations by far.
However the delivery in that video isn't the slider. You can see the close up slow motion of the hand, and he clearly imparts side-spin on it. The seam comes out scrambled (presumably by accident because it looks like it isn't far off-axis to begin with) and thats why it skids on. It's just a natural variation caused by the ball coming out ever so slightly wrong, rather than a deliberate slider in my opinion.
Warne does use his slider a lot though, it was his go-to variation towards the end of his international career after all of his surgery. He pretty much lost his wrong'un, and his flipper too for a while I think? He just had leg breaks, the top spinner, and his trusty slider. It accounted for Ian Bell on about 5 occasions I think over the course of 2 Ashes series!!! Now he's back in IPL he seems to have found some of the variations again, probably as a result of playing a lot less cricket and taking a bit of pace and effort off the ball.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Tell us more about the mysterious Mr Haroons definition of a Flipper, does he demonstrate how the spin is imparted if so how? If it’s pushed out of the front of the hand with little or no spin, that sounds like one of Warnes balls (as Jim explained) that he devised at the end of his career amongst all lot of psychological propaganda trying to under-mine the England team during the last couple of Ashes series. But if its pushed out of the hand it’s not a Flipper, none of the Flippers are ‘Pushed’ out of the hand they are all ‘Flicked’ using the thumb, index, middle and ring fingers and are explicitly described in Clarrie Grimmets book ‘Getting Wickets’ back in 1930. If you look for explanations as to how the spin in imparted for a Flipper look at Warnes videos, Terry Jenners, Mine and the question cricket blokes on Youtube, none of which resemble Kaneria’s confused explanation of a Flipper. Maybe in the case of Kaneria’s delivery it is a legitimate ball and maybe he uses it in matches and takes wickets, but he needs to name the delivery and not call it a Flipper by my reckoning.
The ball in the video could be one of Warne’s later variations, indeed the one that he pushes straight through with little or no spin, and this ball is pretty well documented by one of his coaches, but I would argue that it’s a delivery that as yet hasn’t actually been assigned a definitive name, some people call it a ‘Slider’ and others refer to it as a ‘Zooter’, Warne in his psychological games of deceit and bluff refers to it at different times as both as far as I can remember?
macca
Active Member
Warne has said if he bowled the odd accidental straight one he might play it up as something it wasn't and the commentators often didn't pick up what he had bowled.
But Warne is a deadset bullshit artist, that's why we love him, like overnight he just said he hasn't had botox or a facelift, its exercise and healthy eating that is giving him that strange glowing waxlike cartoon appearance of his. Michael Slater just said on the radio he toured with Warne for 8 years and all he ate was pizza and chips,toasted cheese sangas and spag' bog washed down with coke.
Edit...Slats just had an email from a listener reminding him of warnes love of baked beans which slater then described as addiction.
But Warne is a deadset bullshit artist, that's why we love him, like overnight he just said he hasn't had botox or a facelift, its exercise and healthy eating that is giving him that strange glowing waxlike cartoon appearance of his. Michael Slater just said on the radio he toured with Warne for 8 years and all he ate was pizza and chips,toasted cheese sangas and spag' bog washed down with coke.
Edit...Slats just had an email from a listener reminding him of warnes love of baked beans which slater then described as addiction.
Kiran Rajkumar
Member
The delivery that Kaneria and Mr.Haroon describes as flipper definitely isn't one. It is the same delivery that Warne called as the slider. It is released with the palm facing the batsman but instead of flicking it out like all the round the loop variations it is 'pushed through'.
It is hard to describe it accurately in words. Interestingly Warne himself describes it as a flipper in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tObCnRsIY1U. This delivery is extremely effective if bowled after a few big legbreaks. It very hard for a for a batsman to pick as the seam position looks a lot like a legbreak with a wobbling seam. It doesn't keep low like the OBS as it does not have backspin on it, it just goes straight on.
I can generate quite a lot of backspin on mine, so it tends to skid on lower than it should as well. Rather than just pushing it out I drag my hand down the back of it, which also means it comes out with less flight. To the batsman it would look like a drag down long-hop, but it carries fuller, stays lower, and loses less pace off the wicket. If you flight it more then you can disguise it as a normal leg break like you say and then it becomes a ball that just goes straight on. But I can do that with a scrambled seam leg break and taking some revs off and thats even more convincing (seeing as it is actually a leg break that is just going to go straight on).
Straight deliveries disguised as leg breaks will only work if your leg break is turning consistently though, and ideally turning quite big. Otherwise the batsman will be playing too straight in the first place and you won't catch them off guard enough.
Straight deliveries disguised as leg breaks will only work if your leg break is turning consistently though, and ideally turning quite big. Otherwise the batsman will be playing too straight in the first place and you won't catch them off guard enough.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
That's a good ball that one the dragged hand down the back version (Fingers in my case) cross seamed with the 50/50 chance that it's going to hit the seam on pitching and then do something weird, much faster than my usual delivery and skids in low when it lands on the smooth bit, but as Jim says - use as a variation in amongst your stock ball.
Kiran Rajkumar
Member
My stock delivery is the big legbreak(pure sidespin) and my variations are the overspinning legbreak, backspinning legbreak, topspinner and the orthodox backspinner. I use the OBS more than the toppie. I've asked a few good batsmen if they could pick and they said that they couldn't pick it of the hand but they could pick it of the seam. Any tips on how i could conceal it?
macca
Active Member
I dont know if you can disguise it as such. Do these batsmen detect the backspin or just the straight seam of the delivery ?
If there's one golden rule, its to ignore what the commentators tell you the ball was (even Richie Benaud gets its wrong more than he gets it right) and just watch the spin on the ball yourself. If I had a pound for everytime a slider was called a flipper or a flipper was called a topspinner or a topspinner was called a zooter...
I'd have at least £30.
I'd have at least £30.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Here's my tuppenceworth:
I think an "orthodox backspinner" is exactly that - the ball is simply released with backspin in the most orthodox manner possible - the fingers just roll down the back of the ball. It's not a particularly exciting delivery. I've never seen a spinner bowl it other than as a quicker straight ball.
I think the slider is a 50-50 mixture of sidespin and backspin. Both wristspinners and fingerspinners use this delivery as a skiddy kind of quicker ball. Its bowled by flexing the wrist as the ball is released, allowing the fingers to mix in a little backspin with the sidespin. Its called a slider because it slides on low and quickly. The backspin also inhibits grip and prevents the ball from turning as much. Shane Warne bowled this delivery with great effect, as does Shahid Afridi, as do a lot of offspinners, including Graeme Swann.
While we're on the topic - the offspin variation the "undercutter" is similar to a slider, expect instead of backspin the ball is released with flying saucer type spin - this means that it drifts like an offspinner but doesn't turn - a more subtle modern version of an armball basically.
Going back to legspin, I think a zooter is either completely made up piece of mind-trickery, or just another name for one of the above.
I think the "further around the loop spinner" discussed by Philpott is basically just another way of bowling the slider, but very difficult to do, and hence the reason I've never seen anyone ever do it in a game. This might be the zooter, but if so its not a particularly exciting delivery either.
A flipper is squeezed out between thumb and finger with the arm pronated. This normally produces backspin. The flick of the fingers also adds a little extra velocity. Warne genuinely used to bowl this. I haven't seen many other legspinners pull it off - most of the time commentators say its a flipper its actually a slider or a quick, flat topspinner.
Apparently some people say you can bowl a flipper with topspin, but I can't for the life of me picture how that would work. Is the arm supinated? Surely this would look like you were trying to bowl a doosra?
I think an "orthodox backspinner" is exactly that - the ball is simply released with backspin in the most orthodox manner possible - the fingers just roll down the back of the ball. It's not a particularly exciting delivery. I've never seen a spinner bowl it other than as a quicker straight ball.
I think the slider is a 50-50 mixture of sidespin and backspin. Both wristspinners and fingerspinners use this delivery as a skiddy kind of quicker ball. Its bowled by flexing the wrist as the ball is released, allowing the fingers to mix in a little backspin with the sidespin. Its called a slider because it slides on low and quickly. The backspin also inhibits grip and prevents the ball from turning as much. Shane Warne bowled this delivery with great effect, as does Shahid Afridi, as do a lot of offspinners, including Graeme Swann.
While we're on the topic - the offspin variation the "undercutter" is similar to a slider, expect instead of backspin the ball is released with flying saucer type spin - this means that it drifts like an offspinner but doesn't turn - a more subtle modern version of an armball basically.
Going back to legspin, I think a zooter is either completely made up piece of mind-trickery, or just another name for one of the above.
I think the "further around the loop spinner" discussed by Philpott is basically just another way of bowling the slider, but very difficult to do, and hence the reason I've never seen anyone ever do it in a game. This might be the zooter, but if so its not a particularly exciting delivery either.
A flipper is squeezed out between thumb and finger with the arm pronated. This normally produces backspin. The flick of the fingers also adds a little extra velocity. Warne genuinely used to bowl this. I haven't seen many other legspinners pull it off - most of the time commentators say its a flipper its actually a slider or a quick, flat topspinner.
Apparently some people say you can bowl a flipper with topspin, but I can't for the life of me picture how that would work. Is the arm supinated? Surely this would look like you were trying to bowl a doosra?