Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

[shahidpak]

hey, I replied on the other thread

My thinking is that 12 o'clock is the 'purest' arm angle and if it comes naturally to you, great.

From your photo I would say - maybe you can straighten your front leg a bit more? It's also not clear but it looks as if your front foot might be pointing toward the slips which if so I think is too far round.

Thanks for your reply this delivery was very short and wide i only filmed this delivery i normally have an 11 oclock arm and m'y foot usually points towards leg slip i dont know why i pointed it that way and what do you mean by straightening m'y leg and why do you say 12 oclock is the purest ??

 

[Cleanprophet]

Thanks for your reply this delivery was very short and wide i only filmed this delivery i normally have an 11 oclock arm and m'y foot usually points towards leg slip i dont know why i pointed it that way and what do you mean by straightening m'y leg and why do you say 12 oclock is the purest ??

You should try to get your arm position consistent. If your arm is 12 o'clock then the line you bowl should be very accurate. This might be what boogiespinner may mean about it being a pure arm position. If you arm is 11'clock or 10 o'clock, then you have to time your release that much better. If you release the ball a fraction early then the ball will be legside. Release it a bit late and it will be down the offside. The upright 12 o'clock release ensures that releasing the ball early/late effects only the length rather than the length and line.

It is hard for some people to spin the ball hard with an upright action unless they tilt their head. Really, it all depends on how you are built and how big your shoulder is. If you are having trouble with control of line, then it is worth looking at having as upright an action as possible. If you don't have a problem with line, then just bowl in whatever way you find most comfortable whilst spinning the ball hard.

 

[leftie600]

To be honest, I never mentioned anything at all about turn off the pitch. SLA mentioned that. The talk was purely about the movement of the ball through the air, but SLA said that on a hard pitch backspin prevents the ball gripping. I replied that actually, more than anything, quicker and flatter deliveries inhibit spin and the Warne slider is quicker and flatter. That, more than anything else, is going to prevent the ball spinning.

It's besides the point anyway. My point was that backspin prevents the ball from dipping. The Warne slider does dip a little as well as drift a little.

That is also besides the point. My initial point was that a batter is deceived because he plays for the turn but the ball doesn't turn. SLA said that actually it is the drift that is the most deceptive because the batter believes it is a legspinner. Essentially, he argued my very point but came at it from the arse-end.

In your reply to SLA change your "Not really" to "Not always" and it will read the way you've said it is meant to be. Don't like being one of those people but that change will make it clearer.

 

[Cleanprophet]

In your reply to SLA change your "Not really" to "Not always" and it will read the way you've said it is meant to be. Don't like being one of those people but that change will make it clearer.

To be honest, when I said "not really", I meant that it's not really that simple to say a hard pitch means the backspin will be inhibited and it will skid on. The pace and trajectory also play a part. "Not always" would have worked, but I explained what I meant anyway so it didn't matter either way.

I just don't think the slider is 50:50 backspin/sidespin. The quicker it is bowled, the more likely that the fingers will drag a little down the back of the ball and create some backspin. I just don't think that video of Warne bowling it shows there is as much backspin as sidespin. But, I will accept that it may skid on a little bit more than a normal legspinning delivery, especially when bowled quickly, with low trajectory and on a pitch that offers minimal spin (hard and with little grass). My initial statement was that the batter sees a legspinner and plays for the legspinner. The little bit of drift on the ball, the release (with looks just like a legspinner), the lack of spin and, possibly, a bit of skid on the ball all works together to beat the batter.

I'll post a link to the video at some point where Nasser Hussein and Warne talk about it. Hussein just says that it looks like a legspinner, looks like it should turn but just goes straight on. He didn't mention anything about it skidding on at all and neither did Warne. We shouldn't overthink it. The batter is just beaten, as Stewart was, by playing the wrong line.

 

[shahidpak]

In legspin you should use the crease for different angles different spin angle variation could we use arm angle variation ?

 

[shahidpak]

We had a match today commemorating 100 years from the start of the 1 st world war we played against an english club Penn Street Cricket Club i bowled 3 overs i bowled all over the place but still got 3 wickets with top spinners i was even on a hat-trick but didnt get it "luck of the leg spinner" 3 0 17 3

 

[boogiespinner]

Thanks for your reply this delivery was very short and wide i only filmed this delivery i normally have an 11 oclock arm and m'y foot usually points towards leg slip i dont know why i pointed it that way and what do you mean by straightening m'y leg and why do you say 12 oclock is the purest ??

I believe that your front leg, at the point of release, should be straight and indeed braced. I think this is an important power generator - it's not a big movement, but these are the strongest muscles in the body - and if you let your front collapse you are losing pace and maybe spin too.

When I was last practising seam up bowling, I found that by 'pushing the ground forwards' (i.e., straightening the leg) just before and as I was releasing the ball resulted in a unmistakeable pace increase.

If you look at Shane Warne slow motion he certainly seems to have a straight front leg as he releases. I dare say this applies to any great bowler of any description.

With the arm at 12 o'clock or lower - I just don't think you should worry about this. You are releasing the ball in line with your front foot and I think that's really nice.

What would you like to improve about your bowling? What are you concerned about?

 

[boogiespinner]

If you look at Shane Warne slow motion he certainly seems to have a straight front leg as he releases. I dare say this applies to any great bowler of any description.

I've just checked out some footage of WI quicks and it is not true at all! Ambrose, Walsh, and Marshall all collapsed the front leg. However, Michael Holding has a beautifully braced front leg and he was the fastest out of them.

Out of Australians: DK Lillee - not braced. Jeff Thomson - braced. Brett Lee - braced.

I stand by my theory that bracing the front leg creates higher velocity.

Apologies for the diversion.

 

[Cleanprophet]

In legspin you should use the crease for different angles different spin angle variation could we use arm angle variation ?

You could do. I have tried it in the nets. Dropping the arm a bit and then bowling very upright. It will simply change the trajectory with some balls bouncing more than others. Legspin is tricky enough without messing about with that however. It's probably best to not mess around with your arm position.

We had a match today commemorating 100 years from the start of the 1 st world war we played against an english club Penn Street Cricket Club i bowled 3 overs i bowled all over the place but still got 3 wickets with top spinners i was even on a hat-trick but didnt get it "luck of the leg spinner" 3 0 17 3

Legspinners will always take wickets because you can produce that extra bit of spin. Topspinners will kick on nicely and catch a lot of batters out. Plus, many batters love to attack legspinners. You will have days when you go for runs and days when you take plenty of wickets, but you should always be in the wickets.

I've just checked out some footage of WI quicks and it is not true at all! Ambrose, Walsh, and Marshall all collapsed the front leg. However, Michael Holding has a beautifully braced front leg and he was the fastest out of them.

Out of Australians: DK Lillee - not braced. Jeff Thomson - braced. Brett Lee - braced.

I stand by my theory that bracing the front leg creates higher velocity.

Apologies for the diversion.

Lots of players don't brace their leg completely and some do collapse a little bit. There is no doubt that bracing the front leg generates more momentum through the crease. My leg doesn't brace fully. There is a slight bend, but it doesn't effect me negatively.

 

[Cleanprophet]

I bowled 6 overs in a game yesterday. The opposition were playing quite aggressively and our bowlers in the first 20 overs were pretty dire. As a result, the opposition were 114/3 after just 14 overs and that didn't improve much by the 20 over mark, when I came on (they were probably about 140/4). But, I managed to take 3 wickets, ending up with 25/3 from my overs. Bowled one that drifted into off-stump and the batter edged it to point. The second one bowled the batter around his legs and the final one was a stumping.

It took me a couple of overs to get into it. I have a problem of having very dry hands and this ground was a wide open ground with plenty of wind blowing across. I couldn't work up a sweat, so I was struggling to get moisture into my hands. I'm constantly licking my fingers, trying to get a bit of grip in my fingers. Most bowlers have the opposite problem of having hands that are too sweaty. With my loose grip, it is a problem. My third ball slipped out of my hand and was a nice juicey full toss on legstump that the batter pulled for six. By overs 5 and 6 I was finally ripping the ball and bowling quite nicely. Just a shame it was only 6 overs because my final wicket was the final wicket of the innings and they were all out in the 32nd over. I should have came on a lot earlier. They scored 188 and we couldn't chase it (finished about 145/8 after 40 overs - their seam bowling was far, far batter than ours).

 

[SLA]

I've just checked out some footage of WI quicks and it is not true at all! Ambrose, Walsh, and Marshall all collapsed the front leg. However, Michael Holding has a beautifully braced front leg and he was the fastest out of them.

Out of Australians: DK Lillee - not braced. Jeff Thomson - braced. Brett Lee - braced.

I stand by my theory that bracing the front leg creates higher velocity.

Apologies for the diversion.

That's certainly what Ian Pont argues in his fast bowling mechanics courses.

 

[SLA]

I bowled 6 overs in a game yesterday. The opposition were playing quite aggressively and our bowlers in the first 20 overs were pretty dire. As a result, the opposition were 114/3 after just 14 overs and that didn't improve much by the 20 over mark, when I came on (they were probably about 140/4). But, I managed to take 3 wickets, ending up with 25/3 from my overs. Bowled one that drifted into off-stump and the batter edged it to point. The second one bowled the batter around his legs and the final one was a stumping.

It took me a couple of overs to get into it. I have a problem of having very dry hands and this ground was a wide open ground with plenty of wind blowing across. I couldn't work up a sweat, so I was struggling to get moisture into my hands. I'm constantly licking my fingers, trying to get a bit of grip in my fingers. Most bowlers have the opposite problem of having hands that are too sweaty. With my loose grip, it is a problem. My third ball slipped out of my hand and was a nice juicey full toss on legstump that the batter pulled for six. By overs 5 and 6 I was finally ripping the ball and bowling quite nicely. Just a shame it was only 6 overs because my final wicket was the final wicket of the innings and they were all out in the 32nd over. I should have came on a lot earlier. They scored 188 and we couldn't chase it (finished about 145/8 after 40 overs - their seam bowling was far, far batter than ours).

Nicely bowled. I do the opposite as you say, I constantly rub my hands in the dirt to try and dry up the sweat.

I had an enjoyable day, we bowled first, I bowled the last 10 overs straight through from one end, with one set batsman and a few tailenders at the other end. My job was mainly to keep it tight and try and pick up wickets, I took 2-35, with a bowled and a caught and bowled, both top order batsmen.
Could have been better but there was a dropped catch at mid on and a couple of misfields that went for four. Also bowled one rank full toss that got hit for a massive six. It was my fault, I decided to bowl a slower topspinner at the very last minute and got it all wrong. Never change your mind half way through your action.

They finished on 147, we chased it down with an over to spare. I got 37 and then got an ugly top edge, which was gutting because I was 13 runs away from 4 consecutive 50s.

 

[Cleanprophet]

Never change your mind half way through your action.

Absolutely. Luckily, I've not done that in a match. I usually keep it very simple in matches. But I've changed my mind on a delivery quite a few times in the nets and I almost always mess it up. I always mention Warne and I'm going to do it again. He spoke about having a clear mind, about what you are trying to do, before you start your run up. But, more importantly, he stressed the importance to focusing hard and committing completely to each and every delivery. You could clearly see he always did. Every ball he bowled he put everything into it, energy, effort and focus.

One thing I've done a few times is carry on with a delivery when the ball has slipped a little in my hand. That's a big no no. All these little things are easily overlooked. Another thing Warne was great at, and it was all a part of his psychology as a bowler, was controlling the battle between himself and the batter. He'd make fielding changes that had virtually no impact. It was just all about making the batter wait a little bit longer. It was almost as if he saying to the batter "this is my domain and this is my enviroment. I control what happens here". It was easier for him to do of course because he was a top bowler and had a reputation that had a lot of batters fearful before they even faced him. But still, every bowler, at all levels, can dominate these things a lot more. One thing you see a lot from young bowlers is them rushing through the over if it isn't going well. It's not easy if you are not bowling well or if the batter is going after you, but if you can just slow things down a bit, count to ten (like MacGill would do), get your head clear and make the batter wait.

They finished on 147, we chased it down with an over to spare. I got 37 and then got an ugly top edge, which was gutting because I was 13 runs away from 4 consecutive 50s.

Nice. I'd love to spend a bit of time at the crease and get a few runs. I'm doing plenty of work on my batting, but I just need to be more dominant and aggressive when I bat. I haven't done a lot of batting in my time so I get a little tentative when I do bat, even in a friendly game. I often push out at the ball, feeling for it. I'm a long way from 3 consecutive 50s, nevermind 4 (I'm a long way from one 50 for that matter!). Makes your day all the more enjoyable, I'm sure, when you get a nice bowl and a few runs to boot. Even better when you have a close game. I'd probably rather have less success with the ball and have a close game than pick up 4 or 5 wickets and have a one-sided game.

 

[Cleanprophet]

That's certainly what Ian Pont argues in his fast bowling mechanics courses.

Here's a young kid bowling with a pretty good action, showing a fully braced front leg perfectly.

 

[boogiespinner]

I bowled 6 overs in a game yesterday. The opposition were playing quite aggressively and our bowlers in the first 20 overs were pretty dire. As a result, the opposition were 114/3 after just 14 overs and that didn't improve much by the 20 over mark, when I came on (they were probably about 140/4). But, I managed to take 3 wickets, ending up with 25/3 from my overs. Bowled one that drifted into off-stump and the batter edged it to point. The second one bowled the batter around his legs and the final one was a stumping.

It took me a couple of overs to get into it. I have a problem of having very dry hands and this ground was a wide open ground with plenty of wind blowing across. I couldn't work up a sweat, so I was struggling to get moisture into my hands. I'm constantly licking my fingers, trying to get a bit of grip in my fingers. Most bowlers have the opposite problem of having hands that are too sweaty. With my loose grip, it is a problem. My third ball slipped out of my hand and was a nice juicey full toss on legstump that the batter pulled for six. By overs 5 and 6 I was finally ripping the ball and bowling quite nicely. Just a shame it was only 6 overs because my final wicket was the final wicket of the innings and they were all out in the 32nd over. I should have came on a lot earlier. They scored 188 and we couldn't chase it (finished about 145/8 after 40 overs - their seam bowling was far, far batter than ours).

Well bowled, yes shame there is convention that you can't have spin until 20 overs have gone when legspin can really be attacking, wicket-taking bowling. Why not skittle them out?

 

[shahidpak]

You could do. I have tried it in the nets. Dropping the arm a bit and then bowling very upright. It will simply change the trajectory with some balls bouncing more than others. Legspin is tricky enough without messing about with that however. It's probably best to not mess around with your arm position.



Legspinners will always take wickets because you can produce that extra bit of spin. Topspinners will kick on nicely and catch a lot of batters out. Plus, many batters love to attack legspinners. You will have days when you go for runs and days when you take plenty of wickets, but you should always be in the wickets.



Lots of players don't brace their leg completely and some do collapse a little bit. There is no doubt that bracing the front leg generates more momentum through the crease. My leg doesn't brace fully. There is a slight bend, but it doesn't effect me negatively.

Ive heard a lot of leg spinners saying they bowled the Batsman around the legs but in my match i went around the wickets to a batsman who had a midlle off stump guard i could see his legstump but when i bowled trying to get him around his legs from around the wickets he hit me for 2 agressive 4s

 

[boogiespinner]

You could do. I have tried it in the nets. Dropping the arm a bit and then bowling very upright. It will simply change the trajectory with some balls bouncing more than others...

There is one other consideration. For balls that are not pure off or leg-spin, the spin axis will change, if the angle of the wrist with respect to the arm is preserved.

e.g. a pure flying saucer at 9 o'clock can be a pure topspinner at 12 o'clock!

 

[boogiespinner]

Here's a young kid bowling with a pretty good action, showing a fully braced front leg perfectly.

I think this concept has filtered to the ECB coaching, Anderson / Stokes / Broad all seem pretty straight.

But I would take it further. This youngster is coming down pretty straight and staying pretty straight. Aside from the huge peak force that shocks through the knee and back, I think there is pace to be gained (and safety) by collapsing on impact, then straightening through the release. The force the leg can generated there is massive.

 

[Billywhizz]

Hey Dave! Whats happening with the blog? We're waiting for the next installment. Are you still captain?

 

[Cleanprophet]

Well bowled, yes shame there is convention that you can't have spin until 20 overs have gone when legspin can really be attacking, wicket-taking bowling. Why not skittle them out?

It's just our friedly XI captain. He likes to give people a bowl to keep them interested, whether they can bowl or not. I do usually come on first change (either 13th or 15th over), but I didn't come on until after 20 overs this time. A bit too long a wait for me really. I hope/suspect it is a bit of a one-off.

Ive heard a lot of leg spinners saying they bowled the Batsman around the legs but in my match i went around the wickets to a batsman who had a midlle off stump guard i could see his legstump but when i bowled trying to get him around his legs from around the wickets he hit me for 2 agressive 4s

Usually, if you put anything on legstump or outside legstump (you will have to pitch it outside legstump to bowl most batters around their legs), the batter will swing hard against the spin. Too full and he will sweep it square or behind squar. Too short and he will slog sweep, possibly for a maximum. In general, you shouldn't try to bowl a batter around his legs because that line of attack is not the line you should look to bowl. If the ball is spinning plenty, then you can bowl that line but you have to get your length perfect. The batter I got was actually taking a legstump guard but then stepping right across his stumps (so much so that our keeper was struggling to see the ball). He was an ideal candidate for pushing one down legside. The main aim was to try and get him stumped, but it span back sharply and bowled him.

There is one other consideration. For balls that are not pure off or leg-spin, the spin axis will change, if the angle of the wrist with respect to the arm is preserved.

e.g. a pure flying saucer at 9 o'clock can be a pure topspinner at 12 o'clock!

That is true. I usually bowl the ball with an upright seam, so a more round arm action means the ball won't land on the seam. It will not turn as much, but will skid on a bit more.

I think this concept has filtered to the ECB coaching, Anderson / Stokes / Broad all seem pretty straight.

But I would take it further. This youngster is coming down pretty straight and staying pretty straight. Aside from the huge peak force that shocks through the knee and back, I think there is pace to be gained (and safety) by collapsing on impact, then straightening through the release. The force the leg can generated there is massive.

It always looks like a lot of strain is going through that knee. It is, but the knee can take it. Bones and joints can take a hell of a lot of strain (a thigh bone can take over a tonne of weight). The knee can take that strain quite easily.

That said, I did my medial ligament a couple of years ago. I didn't get any treatment for it and I think there's a bit of cartilage missing too. In other words, it's still a bit dodgy so I wouldn't want to brace my knee fully (it might be better to fully brace, but I'm comfortable with a little bend in the knee). Just as well I bowl spin and not seam. I bowl a bit of seam in the nets and there's no doubt I would add a yard of pace if I braced the knee fully.