someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
I can't see any of this, it just looks far to indistinct! I couldn't even say it looks as though it's got any back-spin on it and that's with my glasses on!!!!
Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)
- Thread starter Richard the Third
- Start date
boogiespinner
Active Member
Is that not a slider?
Cleanprophet
Active Member
From what I've seen of the rpm reader in games, I think a normal wrist spinner gets about 2500-2600 rpm and a normal finger spinner gets about 2000 rpm. We've never seen Warne on the rpm reader, so we don't really know how many revs he used to get. But, I'd guess he would be pushing 3000 rpm at the most. I've seen finger spinners (Swann/Lyon) get up to 2400 rpm. A left-arm finger spinner like Herath was around 2000 rpm and he would bowl a fair few just under 2000 rpm.
Swann would get a little bit of drift and dip on most of his deliveries, so I'm guessing that you need to get 2300+ rpm to get movement on the ball through the air (in most conditions). I can't imagine Warne would get more than 1500 rpm on that backspinner. However, I would bet that his flipper would be up above 2000 rpm.
Cleanprophet
Active Member
Well, essentially, the slider would have very little spin on it and whatever spin there is would be sidespin. This one is a bit different.
boogiespinner
Active Member
Everything's gone green around here. Is that because of the Irish victory?
Cleanprophet
Active Member
I don't know, but I like the colour change. I also enjoyed the Irish victory too.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Half term holiday, younger son and I have been out and about having a bat and a bowl in the cold and damp. My batting looks to be a little better, but the boy knows my bowling and does okay against me, keeps me on my toes though and sets me a challenge of getting him out. I reckon most of the time it's going to be through catches though, I'm rarely getting the ball past him, but I did get him round the back of his legs with a lower arm leg break, that was sweet! Bowling loads of Flippers and changing the angle of my wrist with them, so I've got 3 ways of bowling it, it's not that obvious that each variation differs massively, but there is a tiny bit of difference, the out of the front of the hand one which is supposed break to the off, hardly does, but when looking for a ball that turns away and bounces, one that doesn't bounce and at worse just goes straight on looks promising. 3 months to go to get it all working right...
Cleanprophet
Active Member
I've pretty much given up with the flipper. Haven't bowled it or tried to for a long time. I used to bowl it at decent pace and it reacted nicely off the pitch with slight changes of wrist position. The problem is, I can't bowl it with a normal wrist position. I approach the crease with a completely straight wrist, so it is very, very easy for the batter to know what I am doing. When I try to bend the wrist, like a normal delivery, I can't really bowl the flipper at all and I'm not really prepared to spend any time on it, at the moment.
Our club did a net session last Sunday. The indoor nets were off, so we all went to the outdoor nets. The weather was actually quite mild and it was interesting to have a full club net two months before outdoor nets start proper.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
My first nets are Tuesday coming, it'll be interesting to see how I go against the adults and the lads that play in the 4ths. I'm hoping that my batting is going to improve a little too. Not so sure on my fitness levels, been quite lazy so far, so need to get on that and do some work.
Cleanprophet
Active Member
I'm looking to improve on my batting as well. Last season I wasn't really getting into line enough. Too often my front foot was not getting me into line and I was leaving the gate open a lot. I think almost everytime I got out it was with that problem. I also was playing too straight to balls outside off, instead of hitting them through the off-side. So, I've done a fair bit of work over the winter to improve these areas. Just makes the game much more enjoyable if you can score some runs as well as bowl.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
If I could just average 10 runs a game that would be a massive improvement for me. But having said that - just watching what's just happened in New Zealand, it's obvious that it's not that easy. I know last season what with moving up a league and then not having any of the league winning players in that team, all being replaced with very young boys, every game we played felt and looked like last nights NZ v England game, we were always out-played by far superior teams. I think there's talk of a new league this season and maybe slightly better matched teams?
When you bat do you think in terms of your foot getting to the pitch of the ball, or is the priority to get your head in line with the ball with the idea that your foot will follow your head and end up in the right place? Do you also do the practicing in front of a mirror drills to get a sense of how close your bat comes down in relation to your body, I know I leave a massive gap much of the time.
Cleanprophet
Active Member
It is mainly about getting my entire movement into line (feet and head). I always look to move my foot into line and, obviously, my head/body will follow. I am naturally back-footed, so I had a natural inclination to not get on the front foot. I found myself not moving that front foot into line at all when the ball was fuller and so my head wasn't in line and, more importantly, I didn't have a nice strong set position - either to spring back from for a short ball or to meet the ball if it is more of a full delivery. I had a few balls move a little and clean bowl me because that front foot was too open, leaving the gate wide open too.
Essentially, I am looking to have lower and more compact position (I am too upright and want to get my head lower for a more compact and powerful position). I like the movement of looking to get on the front foot. It's not something I do naturally, but I know I can develop it and against bowlers who are 70mph and slower, it really is something I should be doing. A more compact position allows me to spring back onto the backfoot for balls that drop short. I practiced that a fair bit on the bowling machine at the end of last season. More upright, as I was, means I can't really get into the ball if it is full or react quick enough if it is short.
So, it is about getting lower and moving that front foot into line. It just takes time to develop these changes. In short, my technique last season was awful and I have to retrain my brain out of that technique. Not to mention, the better you bat and know about batting, the more you can read into batters you are bowling too and the more overall confidence you will have in your cricket.
The issue of the strength of the team is a big one. If your team is struggling, it makes like so much more difficult for you as a batter and a bowler. Equally, if you get 2 or 3 decent batters in there and get partnerships going, it makes life so much easier. The issue I have at my club is simply that not enough players work on their batting/bowling. You just cannot hope to do well if you don't have one or two stints of nets a week. I see, maybe, 75%+ of our club's players do zero training and then turn up for a game at the weekend. We're not pro's, but all the same, that is just a poor effort. If you play the game, it is because you enjoy it. If you do a little bit of netting, you will improve, play better and enjoy it more. I just don't understand why people would bother giving up one of their weekend days for a game they are highly likely to fail in.
Cleanprophet has given his bit and you will get different replies for this as we're all different.
My advice doesn't answer your questions but hopefully is of some help.
I have poor eyesight, because of that I spent most of my life at 11 and received next to no batting coaching. Thankfully when I went up through the grades I started to receive some essential advice for a duffer like me that seems to work:
Stance and basic footwork
1. Feet in your stance are slightly wider than your shoulders but no more. Can be different for some but as I learnt in boxing this gives me the best balance for going back and forward.
2. Crouch so that you are balanced with your head over your toes
3. Bat and hands are below the head, if they are inside you will play around your body, if they are outside you will bring your hands in and fall over to the offside.
4. Initial motion is toward the bowler's bowling shoulder. Why? because this means you are protecting the stumps. Also, as a tailender my role wasn't to punish the short stuff but to not get out, this means getting forward to protect the stumps, ducking the short stuff or turning balls aimed at the ribs to fine leg.
Mindset
i. Remember that runs from a lower order player raise the morale of your team and can deflate even the best opposition.
ii. Be patient! Remind yourself of the situation not what you feel needs to be done. An unnecessary shot or attempting shots that you can't play is what normally gets tailenders out.
Cleanprophet
Active Member
On a lot of the pitches I play on, that movement into line is crucial. Most bowlers will pitch it up (unless they fancy themselves as quick enough to bowl short - in fairness, you do get a few seamers who are full of themselves and bowl short a lot as if they were genuinely quick), so that movement into line and onto the front foot is crucial to protect the stumps - first and foremost. This is the area most lower order batters struggle because your instinct is to not move into the line of a hard ball being bowled at a reasonable pace. In particular, young players really struggle with getting into line because you are likely to wear a few balls, but you are also more able to read the line and length of the ball and play it well - and so avoid wearing a few. Of course, the odd one will catch you out and you will get hit. That's just part and parcel of the game. You have to accept that or you will never really get into line with the conviction you need.
Mindset is another massive part of batting and lower order mindset is really big too. Absolutely spot on, lower order runs are really debilitating. We've all been there, I'm sure, when the opposition's last 2 or 3 wickets bat for a long time and put on 100+ runs. It seriously does depress the mood. That other part of mindset (knowing your game, your scoring areas and staying within your limits) is huge, for all batters. It's something that can only really be developed out in the middle. You often see older blokes who have been playing club cricket for 20+ years and they have a well worn gameplan. They know their game inside and out and stick to it 100%.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Yeah we played in a game at the end of the season last year against a bloke that looked as though he was well into his 70's, you could sense that he had years and years of experience behind him, I think he stayed the whole 50 overs and put on nearly 150 runs on his own. He just looked in control of everything that was thrown at him, nothing extravagant just a very basic approach that was wholly sound, but oozing confidence. I think I still have an issue of fear going forwards to bowlers that bowl fast and change the length subtly and frequently. I'd be in mind to go forwards and then find the ball pitched in at pace a lot shorter and as you've said I'd end up wearing it.
Cleanprophet
Active Member
That's what holds most batters back, the fear of getting hit. Those who don't think about it or those who don't worry about being hit are the ones who play most freely and naturally. I remember one of our better first team batters saying something along the lines of "you are going to get hit. When you do get hit, you realise it's not as bad as you fear. Sometimes it's best to get hit early on in your batting development, get it over and done with and move on". Of course, I've been hit in the nets plenty of times. I've had a couple hit me full on the forearm. They really don't hurt that much. The worst ones are often the fuller ones (when you jam one onto your foot) or sometimes a slow ball can just catch you and it hurts more than wearing a quicker one.
If you are playing against a bowler who can bowl it 80mph+ and he is bowling short stuff, then you have good reason to be fearful. But, those normal club bowlers, who are 70mph and slower, should never have you fearful. If you fear getting hurt by them, then you are simply giving their bowling more respect than it deserves (and I'm talking to myself as well anyone else because I am as guilty as anyone of not getting into line against bowlers who really are not quick at all). I used to face the bowling machine on 80mph, just to get used to bowling quicker than anything I would face in a match. It did definitely help and I will do it again once the season starts.
I was batting quite well today in the nets, albeit against mostly spin bowling. Still, I was using my front foot well and getting right into line.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
My older son bowls fast, aggressively and varies his length and has a ball that's like a ridiculously fast off-spinner (Off-cutter). In addition he lets go a loose one every now and then especially when he's trying to bowl even faster and I've ended up on the floor before now cut and bleeding with concussion, so I can't concur with the 'Oh - when you get hit it doesn't hurt' line! Bowling machine time might be an idea, but it'll never happen, as it's always reserved for the kids and the better batsmen. I'll just have to see how it goes on Tuesday and let you know. I think we might have to move this conversation to the batting section as well.
We'll ease this back to legspin shall we?
Batted out the end of the day so we could get a winning draw on Saturday. We had a significant 1st innings lead but our batsmen proceeded to go down like fresh pies, came in to put the draw beyond doubt by using my technique and mindset I take into every game (9* off 32 balls, including a cover drive for 4 off their left arm quick
).
To the spin part, in the last couple of overs they gave their opening bat a go with his part-time leg breaks. I didn't really face him while the 10 hogged the strike but what I noticed was the classic learner leg spinner's mistakes:
).
Had a very brief bowl myself into a howling gale that sprung up while there were some passing showers. Managed to test and cure a problem I've had in Wellington's famously string winds. To get through them I'm now almost hunched over in my run up (walk) and only get tall when I hit my jump (skip), worked like a charm after one dodgy over. Got their last wicket who was their 5 on 47* with a stumping from a big indrifting legbreak that yorked him when he went on the charge.
Batted out the end of the day so we could get a winning draw on Saturday. We had a significant 1st innings lead but our batsmen proceeded to go down like fresh pies, came in to put the draw beyond doubt by using my technique and mindset I take into every game (9* off 32 balls, including a cover drive for 4 off their left arm quick
).To the spin part, in the last couple of overs they gave their opening bat a go with his part-time leg breaks. I didn't really face him while the 10 hogged the strike but what I noticed was the classic learner leg spinner's mistakes:
- Massive delivery stride
- Cocked wrist that doesn't release
).Had a very brief bowl myself into a howling gale that sprung up while there were some passing showers. Managed to test and cure a problem I've had in Wellington's famously string winds. To get through them I'm now almost hunched over in my run up (walk) and only get tall when I hit my jump (skip), worked like a charm after one dodgy over. Got their last wicket who was their 5 on 47* with a stumping from a big indrifting legbreak that yorked him when he went on the charge.
AngryRanga
Member
What does this refer to, and how is it fixed? Think this might be my issue.
Cleanprophet
Active Member
Essentially, you just don't get the flick of the wrist that is fundamental to getting good revs on the ball. You are also highly prone to the drag down.
You often see leg spinners with a wrist that doesn't release and you also see those leg spinners who's wrist releases too early (resulting in the full toss on leg stump). It's a bloody hard technique, as we all know. Timing the release is what all that practice is about.
How is it fixed? If it was me, I would just get down to the nets and video my bowling action, focusing on flicking the wrist plenty. You will be able to tell just by watching the ball off the pitch. As leftie says, without the release of the wrist, the ball has very few revs, doesn't drift and turns very little. Your aim is to get that ball drifting, dipping and turning. You will only be able to do that with a good wrist position/wrist flick.