Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

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boogiespinner said:
I'm still waiting for a net. The first net was cancelled, no-one told me! But I haven't been able to make the other two - 10am on a Sunday is just really hard for me as I have erratic sleep patterns and it's really hard to break them. I'm thinking of changing to a team that has evening nets and might even give me a bit more of a bowl in the summer. I think I bowled less than 10 overs last one. :-(
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I only bowled 23 overs last year in 8 games and my figures were pretty good. I've been netting with my old club and a prospective new club for the past month. Going to the new club would mean dropping down the divisions but the new club are friendly and short of spinners and I want to bowl more, my bowling is the best its ever been at the moment. Truth is I should have left my old club last year, as there are many cliques going on, with a culture of: if you're over a certain age or not big chums with the top teams you have no chance of moving up regardless of performance.
I would try some winter nets with other teams. You might be surprised and all the extra bowling will be beneficial. I've been to about 3-4 hours nets a week and and I'm loving the challenge of bowling to new people.
 
Billywhizz said:
I only bowled 23 overs last year in 8 games and my figures were pretty good. I've been netting with my old club and a prospective new club for the past month. Going to the new club would mean dropping down the divisions but the new club are friendly and short of spinners and I want to bowl more, my bowling is the best its ever been at the moment. Truth is I should have left my old club last year, as there are many cliques going on, with a culture of: if you're over a certain age or not big chums with the top teams you have no chance of moving up regardless of performance.
I would try some winter nets with other teams. You might be surprised and all the extra bowling will be beneficial. I've been to about 3-4 hours nets a week and and I'm loving the challenge of bowling to new people.
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Sounds good mate, I'd be more than tempted to go to the club with the lack of spinners, especially if they've not got the whole clique thing going on. I don't know what it is you have to do at a club for the 'Super Human Crew' to at least acknowledge you - I kind of think it's a batsman thing, I've seen it at clubs where people/kids that are primarily bowlers, or just simply quiet kids, modest kids, blokes who just want a game of cricket, they're just treated wholly differently to batsmen and all-rounders.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
2nd Net session tonight, went exceptionally well. I'm getting far more creative and able to come up with solutions to problems when batsmen start to do specific things. I think it's also down to increasing accuracy and the fact that I am spinning the ball harder I believe and able to change the angle of the seam at the release point at will. I had a particularly good batsman today in my net and had to adapt and I realised his un-doing would be a top-spinner. My conventional grip top-spinner has faded into a half decent leg break these days and the only thing I could think of was to bowl it in a really fingery leg -break grip. First attempt would have had him stumped and then twice more I got him with the toppie mixed in with Leg breaks. The Leg Breaks he could deal with, but the top-spinner amongst them had him done. Good feeling so early in the year, looks very promising.
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That's the key to bowling well - knowing your own game really well and sussing out the batter's technique. That side of the game takes a long time to develop I've found. It just sort of sneaks up on you. Your bowling and just thinking, naturally, how you can take advantage of a batter's technique.

Change of pace is the biggest way to cause a batter problems. I've been bowling some really quick and flat leggies in the nets that are turning a good amount. But, once I bowl 2 or 3 in a row, the batter starts using the pace on the ball. It's a good change up ball and not something you want to bowl too often.

I had our keeper behind the stumps and I was communicating to him (subtely) my plans to a batter and I was very happy with the control and variation (variation between leg spinner, top spinner and googly, but mostly variation on pace, flight and line). Feeling positive for the season ahead.
 
Chino#21 said:
Sounds like good bowling! How do you use the top spinner to get wickets usually? I find it almost impossible to get a dismissal with it, (never mind bowling the thing that always seems to come out as a weird almost non-spinning leg break) perhaps it's because it bounces over the stumps even off a full length but it still feels like a weak delivery in comparison with the backspinner. In my experience most batsmen aren't fooled by the fact that it just stays straight and aren't particularly troubled by the bounce either. I think I should try to get more dip then, but that still seems fruitless since a dipping leg break is more dangerous.
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To be honest it's a bit ropey in that the way I bowl it, it's very different to my leg breaks. My leg breaks have the ball snuggled into the palm of my hand with my spinning finger nestled along the seam. last year I used to move the wrist a little to get more over-spin on the ball and it would work, but still break a little away from the bat, never go dead straight. In the nets we've got a bloke who plays in the 1st or 2nd XI and for some reason he hangs out in our net, but he bats very well hitting the ball deftly with good timing. With my leg breaks, I tried all the moving around the crease, varying the speed and flight, more or less spin, but for the most part he was always getting to the ball with ease, either waiting late, or coming down the wicket to hit it as it pitches. But I had the sense that for the most part he'd already made his mind up the ball was going to break and that he was always playing for the spin.

Previously I've tried these top-spinners against my sons and they work well in the short term and then they get the measure of it and negate it, but I didn't try them last year at all. In order that the ball has a pure over-spinning seam I have to bowl with a completely different grip which is far more 'fingery'. Like you it's very weak in comparison with the leg breaks and it takes a lot more effort trying to bowl it and get the spin on it. It comes out a lot more flighted than my leg breaks, but with a decent bit of over-spin it does dip and with the ball having more flight it seems as though that in itself causes a mis-calculation in length, but then the batsman then has to think about the expected break and they play for that and the balls not there! They edge it and knock it onto the stumps or just miss it and they also think it's gone the other way (Googly) and just get into a right mess! I let them believe it's a Googly and they buy into it because it's so different to the leg breaks! I then go back to the leg breaks varying them big turn and little turn and then just as they're thinking they've got the measure of me again I chuck up the top spinner. I'm going to work on it over the coming months because it could be so much better if I could bowl it faster with more spin, but as it is it seems okay.

Going back to your original question, it would create catches behind for the keeper or 1st slip who I usually have quite close in to the keeper, or the play through the ball early and it creates bowled and caught opportunities or catches at mid on and mid off if they're up. The ball comes off the top of the bat near the handle because of the steeper bounce.
 
Cleanprophet said:
That's the key to bowling well - knowing your own game really well and sussing out the batter's technique. That side of the game takes a long time to develop I've found. It just sort of sneaks up on you. Your bowling and just thinking, naturally, how you can take advantage of a batter's technique.

Change of pace is the biggest way to cause a batter problems. I've been bowling some really quick and flat leggies in the nets that are turning a good amount. But, once I bowl 2 or 3 in a row, the batter starts using the pace on the ball. It's a good change up ball and not something you want to bowl too often.

I had our keeper behind the stumps and I was communicating to him (subtely) my plans to a batter and I was very happy with the control and variation (variation between leg spinner, top spinner and googly, but mostly variation on pace, flight and line). Feeling positive for the season ahead.
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When I was at Grays I bowled with a young keeper who liked my bowling (I was in his fantasy cricket team at the club) and because he liked it, it did seem as though he knew what I was doing and he just seemed far more interested in getting a result off of my bowling than any other wicket keeper. I don't recall that he ever practiced with me as a keeper, but he used to bat against me when we were mucking about waiting to go in and bat. My current keeper's okay, but he's an adult, so that same enthusiasm doesn't seem be there and yet he lives a 5 minute walk from where I live and the paddock, but he has got a little kid to be fair. But it does seem to almost be the perfect situation where he could come round and practice?
 
someblokecalleddave said:
... it's very weak in comparison with the leg breaks and it takes a lot more effort trying to bowl it and get the spin on it. It comes out a lot more flighted than my leg breaks, but with a decent bit of over-spin it does dip and with the ball having more flight it seems as though that in itself causes a mis-calculation in length, but then the batsman then has to think about the expected break and they play for that and the balls not there! They edge it and knock it onto the stumps or just miss it and they also think it's gone the other way (Googly) and just get into a right mess! I let them believe it's a Googly and they buy into it because it's so different to the leg breaks!
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"The emperor's new ball" ;)
 
boogiespinner said:
"The emperor's new ball" ;)
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Yeah so far it's working, it'll be interesting to see if this same bloke gets the measure of it over the remaining sessions. There's another bloke, our wicket keeper who has an aggressive unorthodox approach to his batting and he does very much the same thing with my leg breaks, I don't think I used it against him, so I'll try it out on him as well, but yeah you're right - at the moment it's almost a nothing ball, but the bloke's convinced himself it's something it's not!
 
someblokecalleddave said:
When I was at Grays I bowled with a young keeper who liked my bowling (I was in his fantasy cricket team at the club) and because he liked it, it did seem as though he knew what I was doing and he just seemed far more interested in getting a result off of my bowling than any other wicket keeper. I don't recall that he ever practiced with me as a keeper, but he used to bat against me when we were mucking about waiting to go in and bat. My current keeper's okay, but he's an adult, so that same enthusiasm doesn't seem be there and yet he lives a 5 minute walk from where I live and the paddock, but he has got a little kid to be fair. But it does seem to almost be the perfect situation where he could come round and practice?
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That relationship with the keeper is vital. He has to know your bowling really well. Especially if you are bowling with lots of variety (in delivery as well as in flight and line). I bowl a lot of my keeper (when he is batting) and he has a good instinct for my bowling. After a couple of years of facing my bowling, he can pick up the quicker ball quite easily. I asked him how he is able to read it and he didn't really know. That's a sign of someone who has seen A LOT of your bowling. They can pick up variation on instinct. I suspect I probably do some subtley different things when bowling the quicker one and as he has faced it many, many times, he picks up the difference without really thinking about.

If you can, you should get the keeper in the nets as often as possible and bowl to him - with his bat or his keeping gloves. I bowl to my keeper when he is batting, but around this time of the pre-season I like to bowl to him when he is keeping (especially with a batter, but if not, just me and him). Obviously, he likes to do some keeping work too.

If you have a keeper who knows your bowling well, you will pick up a lot more wickets - especially stumpings.

That question about the topspinner and how you get batters out with the topspinner is also linked to this. For me, the number one way to use a topspinner is against crossbat players. You often get these club batters who compulsively sweep. The topspinner is ideal against these types of sloggers (they are often little more than sloggers who have taken to slogsweeping as they simply cannot read the bowling or, more accurately, they can't use their feet against spin). The top edge is the no.1 way to get them out with the topspinner. But, as mentioned above, the length is crucial. You have to get it nice and full to get them sweeping. A little too short and it will sit up to be hit - plus, it will most likely bounce over the stumps if the batter misses it. This is where a good understanding with the keeper is crucial. As you mention Dave, a topspinner can easily hit high on the bat (often the shoulder of the bat or the gloves) and lob up to the keeper or the slips. If your keeper is reading the bowling or expecting the topspinner, he is ready for that ball that lifts more than normal.

There is nothing more frustrating than having a plan to a batter, executing the plan and inducing the error only for the catch to not be taken. Therefore, you really should do everything you can to ensure that doesn't happen. This isn't just about the keeper, but also about putting your best fielders in those positions you think you are most likely to get the batter hitting to and, just as importantly, speaking to those fielders about your plans (keep them feeling a part of the plans and interested).
 
Chino#21 said:
If I'm going to bowl the googly / backspinner I scratch the top of my run-up with my spikes and that usually helps the keeper.
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I use some hand signals but make sure they are subtle and that, obviously, the batter isn't looking when I do. It can be tricky because you have to make sure the keeper is watching but the batter isn't. Essentially, when I'm going to bowl a leggie, I just roll my hand from right to left (as in a legspin action). When bowling the googly, I just move my hand from outside off and into the keeper (indicating the bowl will come in). For a quicker ball, I push my hand forward with the palm facing the ground (indicating that the ball will shoot through quicker). I will also indicate if the quicker ball will be full by pushing the hand forward and then pushing it down towards my feet (indicating quicker and towards the batter's toes).

Chino#21 said:
On the videos and links thread there's an Ish Sodhi masterclass where he discusses the importance of a top spinner when batsmen are looking to hit you.
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Warne was talking about the googly in a World Cup match today. Pretty much, he said what we all know but it is worth repeating. If a lower order batter is playing aggressively, it's probably not worth bowling the googly because he will most likely be looking to slog to the legside anyway. The googly will probably help him a bit. That said, the googly and the topspinner are useful against these legside sloggers because that extra bounce will get a few top edges.

As for the batters moving forward/backward. For sure, it is much easier to have that forward press and push back from that if the ball is short than it is to hold back on the backfoot and then try to push forward if the ball is full. It is much better for a spinner to bowl too full than too short. Short balls are a real killer for a spin bowler. This is why overpsin and dip are huge, huge weapons
 
Had a good bowl tonight, went to the kids session and bowled on my own with a set of stumps with a bit of A4 on the floor moving it around and trying to get the ball to land on it and turn. Because I was on my own I bowled really well, hitting the bit of paper and spinning the ball hard. It makes such a difference to bowl ball after ball with out having to wait your turn with 4 or 5 other blokes! The top spinner was coming out beautifully - dead straight and on target. All looks very promising so far, I just need to work on overall fitness, but with 2 weeks off at Easter (FE lecturer) I'll hopefully catch up with quite easily, just need the weather.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
In the nets we've got a bloke who plays in the 1st or 2nd XI and for some reason he hangs out in our net, but he bats very well hitting the ball deftly with good timing. With my leg breaks, I tried all the moving around the crease, varying the speed and flight, more or less spin, but for the most part he was always getting to the ball with ease, either waiting late, or coming down the wicket to hit it as it pitches
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There are two factors that are at play when a batter is getting to the ball with ease (either one, the other or both happening at the same time). They are, essentially, a lack of pace and a lack of movement on the ball through the air.

Really, if you are bowling the ball at 45mph or slower, then a decent batter will be able to get to the pitch of the ball. He will premeditate his attack and set off as you are in your delivery stride or just as you are about to release the ball. If you drop it short, he will have ample opportunity to stop, rock back and cut/pull.

You can bowl it at 45mph but you have to have very good control of length and you probably need a bit of movement through the air. Just a touch of drift and a touch of dip is all you need against most decent club batters. If you are bowling it at 45mph, with no real drift or dip, then you will be too easy to hit - even with very good control of line and length.

The other issue is bowling spin in the nets. Really, a spin bowler in the nets is little more than a net bowler. A major part of your armoury, as a spinner, is pressure. A quicker bowler can beat a batter with pace in the nets and out in the middle. As a spinner, you are trying to build pressure on a batter and induce an error. One mistake and his innings is over. He knows that and you know that and this will effect shot selection. In the nets, there is no pressure and so a significant aspect of a spin bowler's ability is removed. Batters will dance down the pitch and swing with impunity. Something they would not do very often in a match. This is something every spinner should keep in mind when bowling in the nets. Don't get dismayed if a batter is all over you in the nets because it is simply not a reflection of genuine match cricket.

One thing I sometimes like to do is talk a bit to a batter in the nets. Tell him that I'm going to clean bowl him, bowl him around is legs, get him to hit one up in the air etc etc. Just try to make him feel like he doesn't want me to get the better of him. That way, you can create at atmosphere that is a little more like a match situation.
 
Basically you are bowling too slow if the batsman is able to charge you after you've released the ball and get to the ball on the full (assuming you are landing the ball on a good length). The speed gets quicker as you go up the grades as the batsmen can react quicker, have better techniques and are just plain faster on their feet.
 
boogiespinner said:
45mph is just off world class though. erk!
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It can be a bit misleading to just talk about the pace of the delivery. You can bowl 45mph and cause the batter problems, but if you bowl every ball at 45mph, then the batter will almost certainly start using his feet and coming at you. If you bowl 50mph-55mph and the batter is not giving you the charge, you will probably be able to throw a 45mph ball in every now and then. But also, as I said above, if you can get drift and dip then you might quite like seeing the batter use his feet.

A good tactic is to bowl a few balls around 45mph and see if the batter wants to start using his feet. If he does, you can fire in a quicker and flatter one in. Some pitches are best suited to 45mph-50mph speed and that gives the batter the chance to use his feet. In that instance, you have to bowl one or two balls an over that are quicker and flatter, just to try and discourage the batter from using his feet.

leftie600 said:
Basically you are bowling too slow if the batsman is able to charge you after you've released the ball and get to the ball on the full (assuming you are landing the ball on a good length). The speed gets quicker as you go up the grades as the batsmen can react quicker, have better techniques and are just plain faster on their feet.
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Very true. If you watch spinners from low club level to high club level and then to pro standard, the thing that will really stick out is the pace of the bowling. The pro at our club doesn't usually bowl much quicker than 50mph but his understanding of spin bowling and, subsequently, variation in pace, line and length means that very few batters are able to get after him - even very good club batters and the occaisonal pro batter.

You will see some amateur spinners watch pro spinners bowling at 55mph and they look to copy the speed. They bowl it at 55mph but are getting very few revs on the ball at all. The technique comes first and the pace comes second. Any young spinner needs to focus on mastering the technique and then simply repeat that technique with a quicker and quicker arm. Ultimately, it is about being able to produce that technique with as quick an arm as you can. No point in having a quick arm (that bowls it at 55mph-60mph) if you are not able to actually put plenty of spin on the ball. This is where the real skill is and why pro's are pro's. They work very hard at being able to spin the ball hard with as quick an arm as possible (it's usually around 55mph because that tends to be the quickest most spinners can bowl the ball whilst getting lots of revs on the ball). In club cricket, you usually see two types of spinner:

1) The bloke who does genuinely spin the ball. He has a nice action, gets drift, maybe some dip and turn off the pitch. But, he bowls it no quicker than 45mph and is often around 40mph.

2) The bloke who bowls it 55mph-60mph and gets very little spin on the ball. Essentially, he is a slow-medium pace cutter. The ball doesn't drift or dip and will mostly go straight on. On a really poor pitch that is offering lots of turn, these bowlers can be a real handful because they will get movement off the pitch even with very few revs. On a decent pitch (basically, anything that a pro will play on), he is a 'fill your boots' type of bowler who can be plundered for runs.
 
boogiespinner said:
I've been wondering how to accurately measure bowling speed. Looked at radar guns but I think you have to pay something huge to get anything accurate.

This is probably an accurate way to measure a delivery, but you would need to keep fetching the thing though. http://www.sportsballshop.co.uk/aca...et-Ball.html?gclid=CLW3msbr5cQCFcuWtAodiQQAoQ
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I'd quite like to see the pace I bowl at too. I looked at radar guns and the decent ones are 300GBP+. The ones that are 60GBP or so are probably not very accurate. This ball looks interesting. It probably works in the same way vehicles (like planes) do by measuring the speed of the air passing into the ball.

Some of the reviews I've read suggest the ball is pretty much useless.
 
Cleanprophet said:
There are two factors that are at play when a batter is getting to the ball with ease (either one, the other or both happening at the same time). They are, essentially, a lack of pace and a lack of movement on the ball through the air.

Really, if you are bowling the ball at 45mph or slower, then a decent batter will be able to get to the pitch of the ball. He will premeditate his attack and set off as you are in your delivery stride or just as you are about to release the ball. If you drop it short, he will have ample opportunity to stop, rock back and cut/pull.

You can bowl it at 45mph but you have to have very good control of length and you probably need a bit of movement through the air. Just a touch of drift and a touch of dip is all you need against most decent club batters. If you are bowling it at 45mph, with no real drift or dip, then you will be too easy to hit - even with very good control of line and length.

The other issue is bowling spin in the nets. Really, a spin bowler in the nets is little more than a net bowler. A major part of your armoury, as a spinner, is pressure. A quicker bowler can beat a batter with pace in the nets and out in the middle. As a spinner, you are trying to build pressure on a batter and induce an error. One mistake and his innings is over. He knows that and you know that and this will effect shot selection. In the nets, there is no pressure and so a significant aspect of a spin bowler's ability is removed. Batters will dance down the pitch and swing with impunity. Something they would not do very often in a match. This is something every spinner should keep in mind when bowling in the nets. Don't get dismayed if a batter is all over you in the nets because it is simply not a reflection of genuine match cricket.

One thing I sometimes like to do is talk a bit to a batter in the nets. Tell him that I'm going to clean bowl him, bowl him around is legs, get him to hit one up in the air etc etc. Just try to make him feel like he doesn't want me to get the better of him. That way, you can create at atmosphere that is a little more like a match situation.
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So how do you explain Majid Huq's success - probably the slowest bowler in the world...
 
someblokecalleddave said:
So how do you explain Majid Huq's success - probably the slowest bowler in the world...
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I did think about him when I was posting. He is very accurate with his line and length. That certainly helps. When I saw him bowl (and I watched him bowl a couple of times), the batters showed him more respect than they should have done. I remember David Lloyd being quite bemused by England's batters failure to go after him.

One factor in a slow bowler's favour is the fact that the batters have to generate all the pace on the ball. Majid Haq certainly benefits from this. A lot of the batters I saw against him actually got frustrated at the lack of pace on the ball. It's also worth pointing out that he would tend to bowl around 70kph but he did bowl a few balls around 85kph.

Jeremy Snape had great success bowling 70kph moon balls. It can be done, but you have to be very good at it and you have to be prepared for those days when the batters get hold of you.
 
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