Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

[someblokecalleddave]

Thanks for the insight. I'm a pretty bad batsmen, I willingly bat last at the nets. By the time i come on all my team mates who are in their late 20s and earlu 30s are tired so most of theme switch to Off spin bowling. I used to hate facing spin because it requires lot of footworks and wrist work. After facing lot off break bowlers and learning how seam affects spin, drift and dip I have become a good player of spin. Even if I don't play a particular ball well I'll know exactly where the ball will land and how much it will turn. Does scrambled seam dip more ? If yes how much compared to a Top-spin leg break ? I have very short, skinny fingers and I always find it difficult to grip when attempting to scramble the seem. I adjust the amount of turn I get by simply pointing the seam either towards the batsmen or away towards slips, gully and etc. Here comes the issue, when I bowl with the seam pointing towards 1st slip or in between 1st and WK, the ball dips more, which i totally understand. When I bowl with the seam facing towards third man, or more across the ball drifts in towards the righty much more than I wanted and turns big. My question is, is it normal to spin big with ball also drifting big or is there away to make the ball not drift but get big turn ?

You're showing off now! For me it's rare to get the ball to drift, I'd like to know how you do it and whether you can choose to drift or not drift and if you answer yes you can - what is you do that makes it drift?

 

[Thivagar]

You're showing off now! For me it's rare to get the ball to drift, I'd like to know how you do it and whether you can choose to drift or not drift and if you answer yes you can - what is you do that makes it drift?

My accuracy and speed sucks big time though . So it is pretty much useless as of now. Well I used to bowl wobbly leg spin for my school's indoor B team with very little revs . I'd pick up wickets, get selected for outdoor and wouldn't get the chance to bowl; I probably would have gotten smashed anyway. So I'd go home, grab my cricket ball, lock my self in my room and just spin the ball hard as I can from one hand to the other. Every year of my 4 years in highschool was like this. So all I did was spin the ball hard I could in my room. So it's been like 6-7 years since I started just spinning the ball from my right hand to my left hand. I believe the revs I put is one of the biggest reason for my drift and my dip. I get my drift depends on where I point my seem. I get my biggest drift If I point my seam across(180 degrees), the straighter I point, lesser the drift I get. When I point the seam at 45* degree, I get half the drift I'd get from my biggest drift at the same time i'll get decent amount of dip as well. If i point my seam straight towards the batsmen I get no drift but maximum dip(Top spin) and of course no side spin. I simply cannot bowl my biggest leg break without drifting unless the ball is in the worst condition possible. I too would like to know how I can bowl without drifting. BTW I spin with all my fingers except my pinky. When it comes to my Leg Break, 50% of my effort comes from my 4th finger, 40% comes from my thumb and 10% from my index and middle finger. When I bowl my Top Spin, I use 60% of my thumb and 35% of my 4th finger and 5% of my index and middle finger. For my wrong un, I mostly use my 4th finger, but for my bigger wrongun I use my thumb more than my 4th finger. I use thumb for my slider and I don't have a flipper.

 

[Cleanprophet]

Thanks for the insight. I'm a pretty bad batsmen, I willingly bat last at the nets. By the time i come on all my team mates who are in their late 20s and earlu 30s are tired so most of theme switch to Off spin bowling. I used to hate facing spin because it requires lot of footworks and wrist work. After facing lot off break bowlers and learning how seam affects spin, drift and dip I have become a good player of spin. Even if I don't play a particular ball well I'll know exactly where the ball will land and how much it will turn. Does scrambled seam dip more ? If yes how much compared to a Top-spin leg break ? I have very short, skinny fingers and I always find it difficult to grip when attempting to scramble the seem. I adjust the amount of turn I get by simply pointing the seam either towards the batsmen or away towards slips, gully and etc. Here comes the issue, when I bowl with the seam pointing towards 1st slip or in between 1st and WK, the ball dips more, which i totally understand. When I bowl with the seam facing towards third man, or more across the ball drifts in towards the righty much more than I wanted and turns big. My question is, is it normal to spin big with ball also drifting big or is there away to make the ball not drift but get big turn ?

Essentially, the direction of the spin will determine in which direction the ball moves through the air. In science-speak, it's called the Magnus Effect. If the spin is towards the batter, the spin creates a vacuum that pushed the ball down - hence the dip. If the spin is directly to the left, the force on the ball is to the right and, naturally, spin to the right creates drift to the left. If you can bowl a backspinner (most often the backspinner is bowled in the form of the flipper or a seam bowler's release), then the ball will carry to a slightly fuller length. Ideally, a legspin bowler will try to spin the ball towards 1st/2nd slip so as to get both dip and drift.

Can you get the ball to not drift but still turn big. In short, no you can't. The revs that make the ball spin are the very same revs that create the drift. To be honest, you should want to keep the ball drifting. Decent batters will get accustomed to the drift, so it is important to vary the direction of the spin. If you want to reduce the amount of drift you get, you should aim to put much more topspin on the ball. That archetypal legspinner is 50% sidespin and 50% topspin. If you bowled a ball that was 100% sidespin, it would drift more than any other delivery. Equally, if you bowl a ball with 100% topspin it will dip more than any other delivery. If you bowl a ball that is about 80%-90% topsin and 10%-20% sidespin, then that would be a good ball to bowl as a change up delivery. It will drift less, dip more, still turn but get a bit more bounce. Ultimately, you should always look to vary what you do with the ball. Vary the pace and vary the balance between topspin and sidespin.

As for accuracy, that will always suffer the more you try to spin the ball. You have two options:

1) Spin it less and get more accuracy or

2) Keep working on control

 

[Thivagar]

Essentially, the direction of the spin will determine in which direction the ball moves through the air. In science-speak, it's called the Magnus Effect. If the spin is towards the batter, the spin creates a vacuum that pushed the ball down - hence the dip. If the spin is directly to the left, the force on the ball is to the right and, naturally, spin to the right creates drift to the left. If you can bowl a backspinner (most often the backspinner is bowled in the form of the flipper or a seam bowler's release), then the ball will carry to a slightly fuller length. Ideally, a legspin bowler will try to spin the ball towards 1st/2nd slip so as to get both dip and drift.

Can you get the ball to not drift but still turn big. In short, no you can't. The revs that make the ball spin are the very same revs that create the drift. To be honest, you should want to keep the ball drifting. Decent batters will get accustomed to the drift, so it is important to vary the direction of the spin. If you want to reduce the amount of drift you get, you should aim to put much more topspin on the ball. That archetypal legspinner is 50% sidespin and 50% topspin. If you bowled a ball that was 100% sidespin, it would drift more than any other delivery. Equally, if you bowl a ball with 100% topspin it will dip more than any other delivery. If you bowl a ball that is about 80%-90% topsin and 10%-20% sidespin, then that would be a good ball to bowl as a change up delivery. It will drift less, dip more, still turn but get a bit more bounce. Ultimately, you should always look to vary what you do with the ball. Vary the pace and vary the balance between topspin and sidespin.

As for accuracy, that will always suffer the more you try to spin the ball. You have two options:

1) Spin it less and get more accuracy or

2) Keep working on control

Thank you, yup it is kind of clear that now I must adapt to the drift and aim for outside off stump to get the ball to land where I want to(middle stump). Since my spin is something that a lot of people do not have and since big spin gives batsmen lesser time to time the ball, I'll work on my control and speed. My control and speed are way behind than it should be. It requires lot of practice, couldn't practice in winter now the weather is better but I've caught a bad cold. I'm also very lazy .

 

[boogiespinner]

I'd love to have the problem of trying to bowl without drift!

The factor which affects drift is the elevation of the seam angle. If the spin axis is tilted upwards, then the ball will tend to drift towards leg more. If it is tilted downwards, then it will tend to not drift or maybe even drift towards the off.

 

[Cleanprophet]

Thank you, yup it is kind of clear that now I must adapt to the drift and aim for outside off stump to get the ball to land where I want to(middle stump). Since my spin is something that a lot of people do not have and since big spin gives batsmen lesser time to time the ball, I'll work on my control and speed. My control and speed are way behind than it should be. It requires lot of practice, couldn't practice in winter now the weather is better but I've caught a bad cold. I'm also very lazy .

I get plenty of spin and a nice bit of drift too. I don't think at all about the drift other than wanting as much drift as possible. The main thing, if you get plenty of spin, is to try to get the ball to land on the line of the stumps. If you land it outside off-stump, you will find that many bats will simply play and miss. Get it on the stumps and give the batter the chance to edge it to the keeper and the slips. I see it many, many times. Most batters you face in amateur cricket will simply not be able to get their bat on the ball if it is outside off-stump and turning away sharply. Decent batters will play for the spin and play with the spin and they will often also use their feet to get to the pitch of the ball to take the spin out of the equation. For all other batters, get it reasonably full and on off-stump/middle-stump and you will get a load of wickets caught by keeper/slip.

As for the drift. Yes, if you are getting consistent drift and a good amount of drift, aim outside off-stump and drift it onto off/middle.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

 

[Thivagar]

You can counter drift and still bowl a heavily spun side spinner. Just lower your arm and focus more on bowling the ball from the leg side to the off side. If you consciously try to lessen drift you should be able to. All you have to do is create an angle that inhibits lots of drift.

I'm already 5.6, i can't lower my angle and bowl leg spin without landing it short .

 

[Thivagar]

I'd love to have the problem of trying to bowl without drift!

The factor which affects drift is the elevation of the seam angle. If the spin axis is tilted upwards, then the ball will tend to drift towards leg more. If it is tilted downwards, then it will tend to not drift or maybe even drift towards the off.

Interesting, that means not gripping the seem right ?

 

[Thivagar]

I get plenty of spin and a nice bit of drift too. I don't think at all about the drift other than wanting as much drift as possible. The main thing, if you get plenty of spin, is to try to get the ball to land on the line of the stumps. If you land it outside off-stump, you will find that many bats will simply play and miss. Get it on the stumps and give the batter the chance to edge it to the keeper and the slips. I see it many, many times. Most batters you face in amateur cricket will simply not be able to get their bat on the ball if it is outside off-stump and turning away sharply. Decent batters will play for the spin and play with the spin and they will often also use their feet to get to the pitch of the ball to take the spin out of the equation. For all other batters, get it reasonably full and on off-stump/middle-stump and you will get a load of wickets caught by keeper/slip.

As for the drift. Yes, if you are getting consistent drift and a good amount of drift, aim outside off-stump and drift it onto off/middle.

Yup hat is what I've noticed it too. It is either good-full on off or good-short on the middle. Only after reading The Art of Wrist Spin bowling that i've understood about the use of Top Spin. Now I know that I must have at least some amount of dip so when the batsmen uses his feet, the ball lands much further away from him, causing him to miss-time the shot.

 

[Thivagar]

Whats wrong Dave ?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Whats wrong Dave ?

I rarely get the ball to drift and can't figure out how to and yet loads of people do it easily.

 

[Thivagar]

I rarely get the ball to drift and can't figure out how to and yet loads of people do it easily.

How often have you been practicing ? Maybe you aren't putting a lot of revs on the ball? I've noticed that I give less revs when bowling in the game compared to practicing hand to hand. I've been flicking it from my right hand to left hand for about 5-6 years now, more aggressively in the last 2 years, almost everyday for about an hour or less. I recorded my revs by placing a red tape on the ball, recording it with my Samsung S4 at 1/8 seconds and I'm getting around 26 revs per seconds (1560 RPM) on average. This is just hand to hand and I bowl probably around 55 km/h during the game with probably half the RPM. I got no idea how these monsters like Warne and Swann rip 3000RPM at 90Km/H.



Have you seen this lad bowl ? He gets a lot of drift ? He seem to be around your age as well, so it is definitely couldn't be the age.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

How often have you been practicing ? Maybe you aren't putting a lot of revs on the ball? I've noticed that I give less revs when bowling in the game compared to practicing hand to hand. I've been flicking it from my right hand to left hand for about 5-6 years now, more aggressively in the last 2 years, almost everyday for about an hour or less. I recorded my revs by placing a red tape on the ball, recording it with my Samsung S4 at 1/8 seconds and I'm getting around 26 revs per seconds (1560 RPM) on average. This is just hand to hand and I bowl probably around 55 km/h during the game with probably half the RPM. I got no idea how these monsters like Warne and Swann rip 3000RPM at 90Km/H.



Have you seen this lad bowl ? He gets a lot of drift ? He seem to be around your age as well, so it is definitely couldn't be the age.

That's interesting to see, he uses his fingers a lot and has no real movement through the crease. The way he uses his fingers is how I bowl my Top-Spinner and Googly, but Leg Break is bowled very differently. I practice all the time - tonight an hour, yesterday an hour and a bit, Monday an hour or so, Sunday a couple of hours and I'm always flicking the ball from hand to hand. I get loads of turn off the wicket, just very little drift. One bloke said it's possibly down to the fact that I bowl with a high arm action.

 

[Billywhizz]

That second video- He's bowling legbreaks that are drifting right to left. Usually a legbreak if it is going to move would drift left to right. Unusual!!

 

[someblokecalleddave]

That second video- He's bowling legbreaks that are drifting right to left. Usually a legbreak if it is going to move would drift left to right. Unusual!!

Says it's swing bowling so he may be dragging his fingers down the back of the ball somehow. But, if you look at his other vids he bowls Carrom Balls so it may be some kind of off-spinner with drift the other way???

 

[boogiespinner]

Interesting, that means not gripping the seem right ?

No, that shouldn't matter much as to the direction of drift. To take the extreme case, a 'flying saucer' ball bowled rotating clockwise as seen overhead looking down will drift to leg. The opposite flying saucer ball will drift to the off.

In between these two extremes, it is somewhat confusing. The 'pure' leg break will drift slightly to the off when it is travelling up and somewhat more to leg on the way down if bowled at a reasonable pace as it goes down more than up (this is a simplified explanation).

Changing the angle of the spin in direction of the 'flying saucers' will enhance the leg-drift or off-drift respectively.

There might also be swing considerations if the ball is bowled fast enough to swing. I think a 55mph ball bowled into a 10mph wind may very well swing and there is, I believe, a seam angle around 60-70 degrees (ie a leg break with a little topspin) where the swing can reverse. I wonder if this was Shane Warne's secret to exceptional drift.

 

[boogiespinner]

How often have you been practicing ? Maybe you aren't putting a lot of revs on the ball? I've noticed that I give less revs when bowling in the game compared to practicing hand to hand. I've been flicking it from my right hand to left hand for about 5-6 years now, more aggressively in the last 2 years, almost everyday for about an hour or less. I recorded my revs by placing a red tape on the ball, recording it with my Samsung S4 at 1/8 seconds and I'm getting around 26 revs per seconds (1560 RPM) on average. This is just hand to hand and I bowl probably around 55 km/h during the game with probably half the RPM. I got no idea how these monsters like Warne and Swann rip 3000RPM at 90Km/H.

That looks impressive hand-to-hand. I have a Samsung S4 and didn't know about the video facility. I just did some one-handed spin and catch with the other holding the camera, and I think got a modest 15-16 rev/s. (9-10 revs in 4.8s of 1/8 footage) As my main challenge there was filming the thing with one hand though (I got one throw in shot), I reckon I might have a touch more.

I think I know what is going on with the crazy spin rates of Warne/Swann. I don't think if you found them spinning a ball hand-to-hand, you'd see 50 revs/s. I think they wouldn't be far off us mortals. I think what happens is that the whole action combines so that spin is also generated from the pace of the delivery. A synergy. If you imagine a ball wrapped in string, you could throw it and as the string unravelled it would spin like crazy, the faster you throw the more it spins. I think that's kind of what is going on, and if you read the Philpott book he talks about 'ripping your fingers over the top of the ball'. This advice was given to me by Cleanprophet I think when I first posted on here and it was a revelation.

The ball I have always managed to really turn a stupendous amount is not the legbreak but the googly. Actually I am just realising typing this post that the secret of that is not a 'tweak' but very much the way it rolls off the fingers as it leaves the hand. In fact, I'd suggest to anyone trying to bowl a big turning googly - after warning them that they are on a path to madness - to try not tweaking the fingers actively at all.

 

[Cleanprophet]

Says it's swing bowling so he may be dragging his fingers down the back of the ball somehow. But, if you look at his other vids he bowls Carrom Balls so it may be some kind of off-spinner with drift the other way???

I was just going to post to say that the second one is pure out swing. Some people (those who don't know much about spin bowling) say that swing and drift are the same thing. They absolutely are not. As we've said many times in thise thread. Big spin causes a vacuum on the ball and the ball will drift. Swing is quite simply about seam position.

It was something I was looking into earlier this year. The seam position for a legspinner is the seam position for out-swing (especially if the the legspinner has lots of topspin so that the seam is angled towards 1st slip). However, if you spin the ball hard, the in-drift will over power the out-swing. I was thinking about this in conjuction with reverse swing. If the ball is reverse swinging, then that out-swing seam position then becomes an in-swing seam position and would simply add to the in-drift. I did mess about with a few balls to try and get them into a reverse swinging condition, but I don't know whether it increased in-drift or not.

Ultimately, the key to swing is seam position. In those videos, the bowler has a cleanly presented seam. That's not important for drift. The swing in the second video is totally dependant on the seam being upright and cleanly presented. It is very interesting though as I've not seen a legspin bowler get that out-swing in a Test match.

 

[Cleanprophet]

There might also be swing considerations if the ball is bowled fast enough to swing. I think a 55mph ball bowled into a 10mph wind may very well swing and there is, I believe, a seam angle around 60-70 degrees (ie a leg break with a little topspin) where the swing can reverse. I wonder if this was Shane Warne's secret to exceptional drift.

I think you've hit upon the same conclusion as me. I was thinking about this a few months back and considered that an older ball that is scuffed up on one side (ie looked after in preparation for reverse swing) then that seam position for a legspinner that has plenty of topspin on it and is bowled with an perfectly clean seam will probably gain movement into the right-handed batter through both drift and reverse in-swing.

The wind factor is most likely important too. The atmospheric conditions such as humidity and the wind/breeze will affect resistance - either helping or harming the movement. If the ball is reverse swinging a little bit, the seam position is pointed towards 1st slip and cleanly presented and the wind is helping, then you will get that huge drift that Warne sometimes achieved.