AngryRanga
Member
Funky music.
Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)
- Thread starter Richard the Third
- Start date
Funky music.
boogiespinner
Active Member
Mate I'm loving this! I know the direction and length is erratic but to me that suggests you are making spin your priority. Stick with it!
Cleanprophet
Active Member
Did some more work on this 'Googly Syndrome' problem I've been having. I spotted something Dave spoke about in the past as part of his remedy for the problem and I gave that a go. It was that 'karate chop' thing he speaks about. It looks odd and doesn't look like it would help at all as it's not really akin to a legspin action at all. However, I found it worked and worked really well. In a way, it is like undoing the googly. It is doing something quite different from the googly and trying to unpick that instinct to bowl it when trying to bowl with sidespin.
Here's a slow motion (1/2 speed) of me using a hand technique along the lines of that 'karate chop' technique that Dave spoke about in one of his videos. As you can see, from a standing start, I follow that straight up with a ball that has lots of sidespin on it. It's bowled a little slower than a normal delivery, but not by much, and it turns a large amount.
Two other factors to consider are the line of my arm right through the bowling action. One thing I've spoken about in the past is getting that bowling arm outside the line of my body. Too often, my bowling arm ends up behind my right hip and then the arm has to come up and get into the line I want to bowl it. That doesn't help my bowling at all and I suspect that when I try to bowl flat out, that bowling arm really does end up behind me (almost like Jeff Thomson when he bowled his quick stuff way back in the day). It doesn't help with accuracy and I suspect it also makes the legspinner harder to bowl. In this video, my arm is much better than it has been in recent times.
The other thing is the importance of being relaxed. MacGill mentioned flopping your wrist about a bit and making sure the wrist is nice and loose so that you can get that whip of the wrist happening. If you are too tense, you are quite likely to run into problems. If you are suffering from 'googly syndrome' then the chances are that you are not going to be relaxed when trying to bowl. It could well be that this messing about with my hand/wrist before bowling is simply helping me feel a bit looser in my action.
Here's a slow motion (1/2 speed) of me using a hand technique along the lines of that 'karate chop' technique that Dave spoke about in one of his videos. As you can see, from a standing start, I follow that straight up with a ball that has lots of sidespin on it. It's bowled a little slower than a normal delivery, but not by much, and it turns a large amount.
Two other factors to consider are the line of my arm right through the bowling action. One thing I've spoken about in the past is getting that bowling arm outside the line of my body. Too often, my bowling arm ends up behind my right hip and then the arm has to come up and get into the line I want to bowl it. That doesn't help my bowling at all and I suspect that when I try to bowl flat out, that bowling arm really does end up behind me (almost like Jeff Thomson when he bowled his quick stuff way back in the day). It doesn't help with accuracy and I suspect it also makes the legspinner harder to bowl. In this video, my arm is much better than it has been in recent times.
The other thing is the importance of being relaxed. MacGill mentioned flopping your wrist about a bit and making sure the wrist is nice and loose so that you can get that whip of the wrist happening. If you are too tense, you are quite likely to run into problems. If you are suffering from 'googly syndrome' then the chances are that you are not going to be relaxed when trying to bowl. It could well be that this messing about with my hand/wrist before bowling is simply helping me feel a bit looser in my action.
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boogiespinner
Active Member
Had a nice if short net session today. I was doing solo practice but a guy came over and asked if I could bowl to him. He wasn't adept at playing spin and I was getting a lot past the outside edge and lost of mishits. I've definitely improved a lot.
I've had a technical revelation re: pivoting. It now seems natural I think! This came from
TomBowler97
asking if it is correct to go up on the toes. So I watched the feet of Warne et al as they released the ball. My conclusion is that the front foot is flat on the ground until the ball is released, after which the heel lifts and the twirl on the toe happens. Simple! But I was trying to power through the pivot while on the toes before. But you can't really do that because you can't generate much turning force from just the toe area of the shoe. Imagine if someone was trying to turn you in the other direction, you can resist if you have the foot flat on the ground but not otherwise.
So my thinking now is that the front foot should be flat on the ground to generate the pivot and should remain there until the ball is released. There is another reason for this which is that if the front foot is up on the toes then the chest drive will be somewhat weakened.
Warne/MacGill/Qadir all seem to plant their front foot at an angle rather than straight down and this seems to work best for the pivot.
I've had a technical revelation re: pivoting. It now seems natural I think! This came from
TomBowler97
asking if it is correct to go up on the toes. So I watched the feet of Warne et al as they released the ball. My conclusion is that the front foot is flat on the ground until the ball is released, after which the heel lifts and the twirl on the toe happens. Simple! But I was trying to power through the pivot while on the toes before. But you can't really do that because you can't generate much turning force from just the toe area of the shoe. Imagine if someone was trying to turn you in the other direction, you can resist if you have the foot flat on the ground but not otherwise.So my thinking now is that the front foot should be flat on the ground to generate the pivot and should remain there until the ball is released. There is another reason for this which is that if the front foot is up on the toes then the chest drive will be somewhat weakened.
Warne/MacGill/Qadir all seem to plant their front foot at an angle rather than straight down and this seems to work best for the pivot.
Cleanprophet
Active Member
What you will find happens is that as your body weight moves forward (your head should be over your front leg as the ball is about to be released) you will naturally move up onto your toes. Then, from that position, you will also naturally rotate as your right side moves 180 degrees. If your foot is flat, then you are probably not getting into the delivery and you will struggle to rotate on a flat foot simply because it is far too much of a frictional block to that movement. It will actually feel quite uncomfortable on your leg.
Cleanprophet
Active Member
I've discovered something about my bowling that has always been there and I've always been partly aware of and it is quite likely the cause of all my current problems. It's all about that arm position and it's something I've spoken about on here before. I've mentioned in the past about getting that bowling arm outside the line of the body and then getting the arm rotation completely upright all the way. Essentially, once your hand and the ball are at they're lowest point you want them to stay on the line they are on right through the upswing of the arm and into the the delivery position. I've been pulling the arm in behind my hip and then pushing the arm back out into the delivery line, so that the direction of the arm as it is coming into the delivery position is towards the legside. Obviously, the wrist flick is towards the offside so if the arm is moving legside, it makes that wrist flick very, very difficult. The quicker your arm is moving, the more likely it is that this wrist flick will simply flick down the wicket and produce overspin.
Every legspinner you see will get that arm direction straight down the pitch or towards legside (Ish Sodhi's arm moves towards the offside). To bowl the googly, you are often advised to drop the left shoulder and get a more vertical bowling arm. This is simply because the wrist flick that produces overspin is much easier to obtain with that body/arm position. If you look at bowlers like Samuel Badree, he bowls always with a dropped left shoulder and vertical arm. As a result, his legspinner is quite weak because his arm is often moving slightly to the legside. That's great for topspinners and googlys. On the other hand, Warne never really dropped his left shoulder or bowled with a vertical arm when bowling the topspinner or googly. They were not potent weapons of his because he never altered his normal bowling action to make them very effective and, in fact, he often bowled a legspinner when trying to bowl a topspinner. It meant that his legspinner was never compromised and remained a really potent weapon.
Bowlers like Mushtaq Ahmed and Imran Tahir always bowl with a very upright arm and, as a result, are very effective bowlers of the googly without bowling really good legspinners. In the case of Mushtaq Ahmed, he bowled googlys maybe 3 or 4 times and over and pretty much became a googly bowler with the legspinner as the change up delivery.
As you can see, this is something I've been thinking about a lot in the last day or two in relation to my problems. The aim should be to have that bowling arm pointing towards mid-on when it gets to shoulder height and then it will stay on the line you eventually bowl it on or even move slightly to the offside. All of that makes the legspin wrist flick much more easy to obtain. All the times that I have bowled a legspinner, that arm moves straight down the pitch. As soon as that arm pulls behind my hip and the arm moves towards legside, the release is topspin/googly. So, it seems fairly obvious to me now what I need to do to fix the problem.
TomBowler97
Member
Had a nice if short net session today. I was doing solo practice but a guy came over and asked if I could bowl to him. He wasn't adept at playing spin and I was getting a lot past the outside edge and lost of mishits. I've definitely improved a lot.
I've had a technical revelation re: pivoting. It now seems natural I think! This came from
So my thinking now is that the front foot should be flat on the ground to generate the pivot and should remain there until the ball is released. There is another reason for this which is that if the front foot is up on the toes then the chest drive will be somewhat weakened.
Warne/MacGill/Qadir all seem to plant their front foot at an angle rather than straight down and this seems to work best for the pivot.
Thanks for this boogiespinner!
boogiespinner
Active Member
Cleanprophet
Active Member
A good still. As you can see there, his head is right over his front leg because his weight is obviously moving forward. Without looking at the video of that delivery, I know that in the next still he will start to move up to his toes and as he rotates his momentum then moves into that rotation. Without being on your toes, the rotation wouldn't happen properly and you would probably then fall to your left almost as if being tripped up.
boogiespinner
Active Member
I think we are in agreement CP? Perhaps for someone that's done the pivot naturally there's nothing surprising in my post. But I was stunned when I saw that side on shot of Warne! (it's not a common angle so glad I was on the look out). I was trying to pivot before release of the ball from momentum generated by the back leg, but couldn't get it to feel right at all.
boogiespinner
Active Member
Here's a MacGill still which I think also shows the same. It's hard to pick this up from full speed video, as CP says a fraction of a second later he's on his toes and starting to pivot.boogiespinner
Active Member
Qadir
(click for full-size)
(click for full-size)
Cleanprophet
Active Member
This is the problem with wrist spin. There's loads of info on the internet about how to bowl it, but it's all fairly superficial and basic. To get into detail, you need more info. It can lead people down the wrong path if they don't read into what is being said as it is intended. The rotation is a good example of that. You hear a lot about how the rotation is key and how that is where the energy and subsequent revs comes from. I can see why some people would naturally think that you rotate and at the end of the rotation comes the release of the ball. In fact, the ball is released in the middle of the rotation. Think of a golf swing. The swing is about 270 degrees or so. Yet, you don't hit the ball at the end of the swing but halfway through the swing because that is the point at which the club head is at its optimum speed. It is the same with bowling legspin. The ball is released about halfway through the rotation and this is when the pace, power and overall energy is at its optimum level. The pivot on the toes is simply enabling the second half of the rotation to happen and that happens after the ball is released. If you don't pivot on your toes, you will struggle to get the first half of the rotation happening with control and balance. Again, golf has a great example of this and it is the bunker shot. You need to hit the ball so that it comes out with a high trajectory to avoid the lip of the bunker. The follow through of the shot is absolutely fundamental - even though the ball will have already been struck at that point.
TomBowler97
Member
I never have my foot flat on the ground as I always land on my toes, which is because of my very high arm ( You will see on my youtube videos It is neaely behind my head) This means less rotation for me, however this has its advantages like a well disguised top spinner and my googly.
Tomorrow I will be netting for a couple of hours and videoing what goes on, I am going to try and bowl at 45' instead of 90' which I am at now. I should land on my foot then once the ball is released push onto the toes and rotate, hopefully this improves my balance. It will be a hard adjustment but I hope it benefits me. At 17 I want to find something that finally works, this is only my 3rd season as a leggie!
Tomorrow I will be netting for a couple of hours and videoing what goes on, I am going to try and bowl at 45' instead of 90' which I am at now. I should land on my foot then once the ball is released push onto the toes and rotate, hopefully this improves my balance. It will be a hard adjustment but I hope it benefits me. At 17 I want to find something that finally works, this is only my 3rd season as a leggie!
TomBowler97
Member
I also love to watch videos from people like Robelinda, legbreakgoogly etc, there are two videos simply called Warne and Macgill which shows all views of their bowling, its also nice to watch 52 mins of a Warne spell on his channel, shows that Warnie didnt bowl a magical ball every ball and does bowl full tosses and drag downs, shows he is human I guess!
I also wondered what peoples opinions are about the late Terry Jenner's advice, he says that you should bowl with an angle but not an angle outside of the width of the crease. What are your opinions on this and is it really important, I believe my angle is outside the width of the crease
I also wondered what peoples opinions are about the late Terry Jenner's advice, he says that you should bowl with an angle but not an angle outside of the width of the crease. What are your opinions on this and is it really important, I believe my angle is outside the width of the crease
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Cleanprophet
Active Member
Yeah, a high arm is perfect for topspinners and googlys. You will have a slightly less effective legspinner, but I don't think you can have all of those things at a high standard. You have to make compromises somewhere.
Do you mean the angle that your run into the crease with? Imran Tahir runs in from quite a way outside the width of the crease. I don't think it matters unless you are having problems with your line or release. Generally, a straighter run will make it easier with accuracy because you will have more balance. But as I say, you can approach from a wide angle and still have very good balance. It's all down to the individual. For people trying to get more rotation into their delivery, approaching from quite wide can help with that.
boogiespinner
Active Member
I wish we had seen more of Warne and MacGill together. I could not understand why in the 2005 Ashes series why MacGill couldn't get past twelfth man. Warne took 40 wickets in that series at a tidy average but their seamers did poorly and Australia lost. There seems to be a feeling of, well you can have any number of seamers in a side but more than one spinner is no good. I don't understand this. Two strike bowlers for the new ball and two spinners and that bowling attack can go all day, and what could be wrong with having Warne from both ends?
TomBowler97
Member
Just created a blog guys, just to be able to show you whats happening with my cricket.
Please check it out and let me know what you think!
http://mylegspinjourney.blogspot.co.uk/
Please check it out and let me know what you think!
http://mylegspinjourney.blogspot.co.uk/
Looks good mate. Hope it goes well for you!
Cleanprophet
Active Member
Good blog. I'd agree with everything I read about bowling to a keeper and club batters not watching for the arm angle.
The problem with bowling to most batters in the nets is that they don't play as they would in a match. They're often much mroe aggressive and fearless as they don't have to worry about getting out and their innings being over. I've watched our club's pro spinner getting hit out of the nets many times and it seriously infuriates him. Fortunately for me, I bowl a lot to a batter who is working a lot on proper technique (ie playing straight and in the V) and bats like he does in a match. It's not all bad practice because you will come up against a LOT of sloggers in club cricket, especially when you bowl legspin. But in terms of developing your technique, if you can't bowl to a proper batter it is better to bowl to just a set of stumps or a keeper.
That arm angle is a good thing to work on. A vertical arm is good for bowling all the variations, but you won't bowl a really good legspinner with a fully vertical arm (12 o'clock, if you think about it as a clock face). Getting your arm around 1 o'clock is ideal.
You also need to make sure you don't do what I have been doing which is taking your arm back behind you. As long as the ball in your hand moves backwards on a straight line and then comes up to shoulder height (with the arm pointing towards mid-on/long-on) and then moves straight down the wicket, towards the batter (or very slightly to the off-side of the batter), then you are spot on.
That issue you mention about having much better figures a couple of years ago, when you were a fair bit shorter, is an interesting one too. I was watching a young legspinner yesterday and he was probably only about 5"2 or so. Every young, small leggie I see tends to drop the ball very short (a good few yards short of the length they need) and they also bowl it quite slow (about 35mph-40mph). As a result, the ball turns a lot and it's not that easy to hit the ball, even when you are on your backfoot and waiting for that short ball. Really, the only option is to use your feet, get to the pitch of the ball and smash it. A decent batter will do that and do it every time. But most of the batters young small leggies bowl to in club cricket don't have the courage to use their feet. As a result, these young lads tend to do very well. As soon as they come up against a decent batter, they get smashed. Also, as they get older and taller, they get the ball on a better fuller length. This just brings the sloggers into the game and they go for more runs. This is part of the process of development. What is needed at that point is more pace on the ball and more experience bowling to all types of batters. A lot of leggies either give up legspin at that point (because they can't handle going for runs when they've never gone for runs in the past) or that start darting the ball in and bowling quicker - losing the focus of what legspin is all about.