Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

[Cleanprophet]

I don't think Warne's front foot position at the crease helped this either. In the last couple of weeks I've been changing my front foot position from across my body (with a big twist around the front foot) to aligned just to the left of my back foot (with more of a step-over). It seems to have made the googly much easier. I hardly have a good one, since I've never really tried it, but I'm getting the wrist into a much better position to bowl it. It actually coming out with side-spin rather than just being a top-spinner.

To me a decent googly seems almost impossible to bowl with the front foot landing across the body, at least without compromising other parts of an action need for a good leg-spinner. The need to rotate so far at the moment of release seems to prevent bringing over the arm in position for a half-decent googly.

The thing with the googly is that you need it to be well disguised. For some people, myself included, you can only bowl the googly by having a high arm, a lower left shoulder and an earlier release point. That's ok against a lot of batters. Once you get to a decent standard, it is a big give away. At Test level, you simply wouldn't get away with it. You would need consistency in position at the crease and consistency in the release point. Adil Rashid and the ECB have been doing some videos recently (not very good videos, I should add), but you see Rashid talk about having the same release point in this little video:



This works for Rashid because he has a relatively earlier release point for his legspinner. The likes of Warne released the ball at a 60 degree angle. Rashid is somwhere around the 75 degree angle, which is not far from the vertical. He's been working with Warne this week and I wonder if Warne is encouraging Rashid to release the ball a bit later?

The front foot position is always an interesting one. Traditionally, the advice was to have the heel of the front foot on the same line as the toe of the back foot, but Warne's front foot was often a good bit wider than that. This gives you more rotation but also makes it slightly more difficult to bowl. I'm sure it impacts on the googly also.

 

[James513]

James, tell me how you bowl your 'Slider'.

I bowl my slider just out the front of the hand, rolling my palm and fingers under the ball creating underspin just like a normal medium pace delivery but slower. I will try and post a video of it in the coming days.

 

[TomBowler97]

C Cleanprophet would you say that me leaning forward more in my action, means a lower shoulder? Because leaning forward improves my bowling massively, however, I know we discussed earlier about sturggling to get out a leggie with a low shoulder? Is leaning forward, like Smith, over the front foot with an arm angle of around MacGill okay?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

The thing with the googly is that you need it to be well disguised. For some people, myself included, you can only bowl the googly by having a high arm, a lower left shoulder and an earlier release point. That's ok against a lot of batters. Once you get to a decent standard, it is a big give away. At Test level, you simply wouldn't get away with it. You would need consistency in position at the crease and consistency in the release point. Adil Rashid and the ECB have been doing some videos recently (not very good videos, I should add), but you see Rashid talk about having the same release point in this little video:



This works for Rashid because he has a relatively earlier release point for his legspinner. The likes of Warne released the ball at a 60 degree angle. Rashid is somwhere around the 75 degree angle, which is not far from the vertical. He's been working with Warne this week and I wonder if Warne is encouraging Rashid to release the ball a bit later?

The front foot position is always an interesting one. Traditionally, the advice was to have the heel of the front foot on the same line as the toe of the back foot, but Warne's front foot was often a good bit wider than that. This gives you more rotation but also makes it slightly more difficult to bowl. I'm sure it impacts on the googly also.

I bowl my slider just out the front of the hand, rolling my palm and fingers under the ball creating underspin just like a normal medium pace delivery but slower. I will try and post a video of it in the coming days.

Cheers James.

 

[boogiespinner]

Here's where I'm at with my bowling action - I'm forgetting the ball for the moment and just working on the action.

hey Dave,

just noticed a few things.

There is very little chest drive (perhaps none)
This is the first side-on I've seen of your bowling so hadn't noticed before. It's a big thing! If you look at Warne et al, I am sure they are actually releasing the ball with the arm behind the body, whereas yours is ahead
tbh I don't know how you get the ball down the other end at a decent lick without the chest drive!

maybe this is associated with the lack of front leg bracing / collapse

also the front arm action is pretty wooly. IMO it should come to a clean stop before the final surge to release the ball. Stopping the front arm causes the bowling arm to sling through (conservation of angular momentum). But your front arm is still on its way down. (the alternative front arm technique is to swing it way back without stopping, but that also involves it coming past the body before the ball is released).

 

[Cleanprophet]

C Cleanprophet would you say that me leaning forward more in my action, means a lower shoulder? Because leaning forward improves my bowling massively, however, I know we discussed earlier about sturggling to get out a leggie with a low shoulder? Is leaning forward, like Smith, over the front foot with an arm angle of around MacGill okay?

You can drop that left shoulder whilst completely upright (that is, whilst your head is quite a way short of your front foot) and you can drop the left shoulder whilst your head is over your front foot. Imagine you are reaching up to a shelf with your right hand. If you start dropping your left shoulder, you will find it harder to reach the shelf. That's all that is happening. Your fingers need to be over the top of the ball and the more the left shoulder drops, the harder it is to do that. You can get right over the front foot and keep that shoulder upright (as you see from the footage of MacGill in that Rawalpindi Test - not easy to see as it is a 2D image from behind, but rest assured that MacGill is right over his front foot whilst that left shoulder has dropped only a small amount). I was watching Azhar Ali bowl his part -time legspin today and his shoulder was dropped massively. No surprise to see that he bowled a good googly and a very ordinary legspinner (in fact, I would consider him to be a googly bowler who's best/stock ball is the googly). As Warne would always say, you are a legspinner and the legspinner delivery is the best ball you could bowl, so if you become a googly bowler like Azhar Ali then you are not going to be as effective.

It's important to recognise the difference between a poor release and a poor length. A legspinner can release the ball nicely but get the length all wrong. A poor release can see the ball land on a good length. The two types of poor release you will see is the drag down and the full toss. Those bowlers who look to release it late will be more prone to the drag down (something Steve Smith does) and those who release it a bit early will be prone to the full toss (something Adil Rashid does). Equally, those who release it later will be able to get more sidespin and will be able to bowl legspinners with big revs and those who release it early will bowl better googlys.

Remember, by releasing it later you will get over that front foot naturally without thinking about. That position over the front foot is a consequence of releasing it later. You can't get that later release without being right over your front foot. The aim is to release it late enough to get lots of sidspin (50/50) and to keep that left shoulder from dropping.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

hey Dave,

just noticed a few things.

There is very little chest drive (perhaps none)
This is the first side-on I've seen of your bowling so hadn't noticed before. It's a big thing! If you look at Warne et al, I am sure they are actually releasing the ball with the arm behind the body, whereas yours is ahead
tbh I don't know how you get the ball down the other end at a decent lick without the chest drive!

maybe this is associated with the lack of front leg bracing / collapse

also the front arm action is pretty wooly. IMO it should come to a clean stop before the final surge to release the ball. Stopping the front arm causes the bowling arm to sling through (conservation of angular momentum). But your front arm is still on its way down. (the alternative front arm technique is to swing it way back without stopping, but that also involves it coming past the body before the ball is released).

Yeah loads of things wrong with it at the moment. At the moment I'm not doing it with a ball and releasing it, but I suspect it'll be a disaster when I do, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. Chest Drive? You'll have to elaborate on that. Leading arm, yep I'm well aware of that as an issue, the collapsing leg I'll have a look at now and see what you mean, but I think I know what you mean.

 

[Cleanprophet]

Yeah loads of things wrong with it at the moment. At the moment I'm not doing it with a ball and releasing it, but I suspect it'll be a disaster when I do, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. Chest Drive? You'll have to elaborate on that. Leading arm, yep I'm well aware of that as an issue, the collapsing leg I'll have a look at now and see what you mean, but I think I know what you mean.

I wouldn't worry about that front leg. The biggest thing that stands out is that you're upper body is a bit too far back in the delivery stride. That's why your front leg is bent. The more you get over the front foot, the more that front leg will brace. The further behind it you are, the more likely it is to be bent. Obviously if it is bent a lot then you will lose some energy from your approach to the crease. A slightly later release will help you get over that front foot more and that front leg will brace a bit more, creating a bit more momentum through the delivery.

The back leg looks a bit exaggerated in its movement too. It swings out a lot, which can't be helpful. Trust me, I've been there, don't give any thought at all to the back leg movement. If you get everything else right, then the movement of the back leg takes care of itself. As long as it's not dragging behind you, then don't worry about it.

 

[Cleanprophet]

Whats your opinion on what I just said about the high arm might not be the problem with my spin? And could the early releases also be the reason for the scrambled seam through the air? I also think that the reason for my abrupt follow through is because of the early release, as there is no momentum to carry forward.

Here's a little clip of bowling from yesterday. Just walking in, not running or jumping for this one. One thing I focused on was having a nice loose grip. I did see someone mention having a firmer grip on the ball if the ball is being released early and slipping out of your hand. I'd say the opposite is required. Every wrist spinner you see mentions having a nice loose grip and relaxed wrist. In ensuring my grip was nice and loose I found that I got the later release much more consistently and also had a nice arm position (not high and not too low). In this clip, the ball lands short and isn't very good as an actual delivery that would trouble a batter, but it is released with lots of sidespin and turns plenty:

 

[TomBowler97]

Here's a little clip of bowling from yesterday. Just walking in, not running or jumping for this one. One thing I focused on was having a nice loose grip. I did see someone mention having a firmer grip on the ball if the ball is being released early and slipping out of your hand. I'd say the opposite is required. Every wrist spinner you see mentions having a nice loose grip and relaxed wrist. In ensuring my grip was nice and loose I found that I got the later release much more consistently and also had a nice arm position (not high and not too low). In this clip, the ball lands short and isn't very good as an actual delivery that would trouble a batter, but it is released with lots of sidespin and turns plenty:

This is one thing I will be looking at, the pressure of my grip. Then walking in, leaning forward and releasing later, and I am hoping to not over analyse things and hopefully everything else will fall into place.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

"The Rat Swanne leaving a sinking ship". Bob Willis quote tonight on Sky. I'm loving that!

 

[Cleanprophet]

This is one thing I will be looking at, the pressure of my grip. Then walking in, leaning forward and releasing later, and I am hoping to not over analyse things and hopefully everything else will fall into place.

Don't worry about leaning forward. Just focus on the later release because if you get that then you will be over your front foot anyway. The only things to think about are not dropping the left shoulder too much and releasing the ball later.

 

[TomBowler97]

Don't worry about leaning forward. Just focus on the later release because if you get that then you will be over your front foot anyway. The only things to think about are not dropping the left shoulder too much and releasing the ball later.

Today at lunch in school I went into the sports hall and bowled 2 overs with my new lower-ish arm and also the later release, I can definitely say it is on the way up, I had a loose grip and was producing genuine leg spinners, where I could feel my finger dragging over the ball and it really ripping out of my hands, not slipping like it used to. The ball had a good leg spin position seam and not wobbling. Also every ball was accurate and spinning. I also followed through naturally with good rotation. So it looks like the later release is working out so far, now I need to incorporate it into actual nets/match and get it into my action. Looks like I finally found something that just might work! Finally!

 

[Cleanprophet]

Today at lunch in school I went into the sports hall and bowled 2 overs with my new lower-ish arm and also the later release, I can definitely say it is on the way up, I had a lose grip and was producing genuine leg spinners, where I could feel my finger dragging over the ball and it really ripping out of my hands, not slipping like it used to. The ball had a good leg spin position seam and not wobbling. Also every ball was accurate and spinning. I also followed through naturally with good rotation. So it looks like the later release is working out so far, now I need to incorporate it into actual nets/match and get it into my action. Looks like I finally found something that just might work! Finally!

Sounds good. A lot of it is about feel. Sometimes, thinking about getting into this position or that position can make things more complicated and actively damage your action. However, there are times when you have to do it to get into positions you have to get into. That feeling of your finger dragging over the ball and not slipping out of your hand is exactly what you want.

One thing you must remember to do is to not expect too much too soon. You can easily get carried away and start thinking "I've cracked it. I've figured it out".Then if you start bowling a bit like you used to and the bowling isn't as good, it can leave you dismayed and you certainly don't want to get into a negative mindset. Keeping thinking along the lines of "just might work" and keep your expectations in check. It will take a fair bit more work to make a new action natural. Chances are, if you played in a game tomorrow, you would revert back to your old earlier release. That's the beauty of it being off-season. You now have the chance to keep working on this new position/release and make it your natural and instinctive action. But it will take time and remember to ease off if you get the feeling of the old action coming back with the ball slipping out of your hand.

 

[TomBowler97]

Sounds good. A lot of it is about feel. Sometimes, thinking about getting into this position or that position can make things more complicated and actively damage your action. However, there are times when you have to do it to get into positions you have to get into. That feeling of your finger dragging over the ball and not slipping out of your hand is exactly what you want.

One thing you must remember to do is to not expect too much too soon. You can easily get carried away and start thinking "I've cracked it. I've figured it out".Then if you start bowling a bit like you used to and the bowling isn't as good, it can leave you dismayed and you certainly don't want to get into a negative mindset. Keeping thinking along the lines of "just might work" and keep your expectations in check. It will take a fair bit more work to make a new action natural. Chances are, if you played in a game tomorrow, you would revert back to your old earlier release. That's the beauty of it being off-season. You now have the chance to keep working on this new position/release and make it your natural and instinctive action. But it will take time and remember to ease off if you get the feeling of the old action coming back with the ball slipping out of your hand.

This is the thing that I am thinking, I chop and change so often and I think it is about time that I stick with something that works, and the last two times it has worked. I know it is only the beginning and there will be setbacks but I just need to stick with it, and like you said, beauty of the off season I can work on it a lot! My winter nets start in Jan and hoping the weather stays fine for some outdoor sessions.

 

[TomBowler97]

Did anyone see Amit Mishra bowling today? Really ripping it!

 

[GoldenArm]

Did anyone see Amit Mishra bowling today? Really ripping it!

yeah he was bowling beautifully, I've always been a fan of him he's quite underrated. We're really being spoilt for wrist spin at the moment, Rashid and Yasir, Tahir and Mishra. Its just a shame the aussies and kiwi's didn't pick Ish Sodhi and Fawad Ahmed or we'd have a full house!

 

[TomBowler97]

yeah he was bowling beautifully, I've always been a fan of him he's quite underrated. We're really being spoilt for wrist spin at the moment, Rashid and Yasir, Tahir and Mishra. Its just a shame the aussies and kiwi's didn't pick Ish Sodhi and Fawad Ahmed or we'd have a full house!

That would have been great! I loved how he was bowling with pure sidespin or the "the big leg break" every ball, loved he was really ripping it and not scared to drag it down. I also imagine he would have a good slider, if he did bowl it because of his side spin and late release.

 

[Cleanprophet]

That would have been great! I loved how he was bowling with pure sidespin or the "the big leg break" every ball, loved he was really ripping it and not scared to drag it down. I also imagine he would have a good slider, if he did bowl it because of his side spin and late release.

He had that problem a little while ago of falling away to his left and dropping that left shoulder a lot. He went away and worked on it and now is bowling very nicely. He bowls that slider out of the front of the hand very well.

 

[TomBowler97]

He had that problem a little while ago of falling away to his left and dropping that left shoulder a lot. He went away and worked on it and now is bowling very nicely. He bowls that slider out of the front of the hand very well.

I was thinking that he must have worked on something because when I have seen him before he hasn't turned the ball massively, like he does now.