Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

[Neville Young]

“Please stop with the unprovoked personal attacks. It's simply unacceptable behaviour”

That would be good advice SLA if only you followed it!

So far you have come up with the following about me.
When you go through some of your statements to others on the forum you come across as rude, spiteful and a hypocrite.

“a self-appointed know-it-all like Neville comes along and bullies it out of them”.

“Better find a genuine honest professional coach than listen to an arrogant boastful disgrace to cricket happy to ******** up your entire career”.

Is this because I stated how long I was involved in the game and when I got my senior coaching qualification, which by the way is now called level 3? My statement was nothing compared to yours. Sounds a lot more boastful than anything I described.

“I'm a qualified level 3 coach with over 20 years of coaching experience, specialising in spin bowling, with a PhD in physical science and several published articles on biomechanics amongst other things.”

You inferred that because my coaching started in 1979, that I hadn’t done anything to keep abreast of coaching developments. If you are a qualified coach then you would know you are required to regularly update your qualifications.

You attacked the fact that I responded to a video that was put up by someone asking for some help because I hadn’t taken the time to get to know them.

But you have done exactly the same to me. You don’t know me at all, you know nothing about my coaching experience, nothing about players I have coached, where I played or the people I played with and against. If you are the experienced coach you say you are, then you can do better than you’ve been doing on here.

The difference is I was offering help while all you offer is negative comments, criticisms and snide remarks.

To be honest I don’t believe your coaching statement at all. One of the things that every coach learns is that the technical side of things involved in coaching a club is a small task when compared to the psychology involved in getting the best from the players and to get them working together as a team with a common goal as well as working through personal issues players experience in their lives. Most of the work involved in coaching is just people management. To become successful coach requires empathy SLA, which you appear to lack entirely.

So if you don’t want any criticisms from others, start by looking at how you treat other people on the forum.

 

[SLA]

“Please stop with the unprovoked personal attacks. It's simply unacceptable behaviour”

That would be good advice SLA if only you followed it!

So far you have come up with the following about me.
When you go through some of your statements to others on the forum you come across as rude, spiteful and a hypocrite.

“a self-appointed know-it-all like Neville comes along and bullies it out of them”.

“Better find a genuine honest professional coach than listen to an arrogant boastful disgrace to cricket happy to ******** up your entire career”.

Is this because I stated how long I was involved in the game and when I got my senior coaching qualification, which by the way is now called level 3? My statement was nothing compared to yours. Sounds a lot more boastful than anything I described.

“I'm a qualified level 3 coach with over 20 years of coaching experience, specialising in spin bowling, with a PhD in physical science and several published articles on biomechanics amongst other things.”

You inferred that because my coaching started in 1979, that I hadn’t done anything to keep abreast of coaching developments. If you are a qualified coach then you would know you are required to regularly update your qualifications.

You attacked the fact that I responded to a video that was put up by someone asking for some help because I hadn’t taken the time to get to know them.

But you have done exactly the same to me. You don’t know me at all, you know nothing about my coaching experience, nothing about players I have coached, where I played or the people I played with and against. If you are the experienced coach you say you are, then you can do better than you’ve been doing on here.

The difference is I was offering help while all you offer is negative comments, criticisms and snide remarks.

To be honest I don’t believe your coaching statement at all. One of the things that every coach learns is that the technical side of things involved in coaching a club is a small task when compared to the psychology involved in getting the best from the players and to get them working together as a team with a common goal as well as working through personal issues players experience in their lives. Most of the work involved in coaching is just people management. To become successful coach requires empathy SLA, which you appear to lack entirely.

So if you don’t want any criticisms from others, start by looking at how you treat other people on the forum.

Your advice was shoddy, unresearched and completely unprofessional. If you have done cpd recently, you obviously weren't paying attention. There is no way a coaching organisation in any sport would ever advocate a technical intervention on the back of a single video with no supporting information. The probability of ruining that young man's action completely are significant. You're either unaware of that or ambivalent.

Please note, that I'm not attacking you personally, just your totally substandard and irresponsible coaching methods. Or would be nice if you showed the same level of courtesy to other users of this forum.

 

[Neville Young]

There you go again SLA attacking the person and not the arguments. You can't help yourself.

 

[SLA]

There you go again SLA attacking the person and not the arguments. You can't help yourself.

Are you struggling to read? I really couldn't have been more explicit that I was attacking your unprofessional coaching standards and not you as a person. I'm beginning to think you are just here to cause arguments.

 

[boogiespinner]

Are you struggling to read? I really couldn't have been more explicit that I was attacking your unprofessional coaching standards and not you as a person. I'm beginning to think you are just here to cause arguments.

SLA, what you claim to be doing, and what you actually have been doing, are as different as night and day. Many of your recent posts have been loaded with pejoratives. The start of your personalities with Neville Young was THIS POST, May 7th, where you launched an entirely unprovoked personal attack.

In fact you seem completely oblivious to loading up your repeated insistence that you are not making personal attacks with another sarcastic insult (clearly, Neville Young has no problems with literacy) and "I'm beginning to think you are just here to cause arguments", coming from the person that actually created the argument, is straight out of the narcissistic abuse manual.

Please stop.

 

[Neville Young]

Your advice was shoddy, unresearched and completely unprofessional. If you have done cpd recently, you obviously weren't paying attention. There is no way a coaching organisation in any sport would ever advocate a technical intervention on the back of a single video with no supporting information. The probability of ruining that young man's action completely are significant. You're either unaware of that or ambivalent.

Please note, that I'm not attacking you personally, just your totally substandard and irresponsible coaching methods. Or would be nice if you showed the same level of courtesy to other users of this forum.

Surely these comments are in the same category as those by Chicken Little, alarmist and silly. I wouldn't have commented any further but you infer that I have a problem with other users on here when I do not.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

excellent!

I'm still yet to be convinced that the 'orthodox back-spinner' exists though.

My younger son can bowl this - he used to bowl leg breaks - was talking to him and he said 'What like this' and then just bowled one as easy as you like. No-where near good enough to bowl in a game, but if he was to ever decide to go back to it (Wrist-spinning) it looks like one he'd get right if he worked on it.

 

[boogiespinner]

My younger son can bowl this - he used to bowl leg breaks - was talking to him and he said 'What like this' and then just bowled one as easy as you like. No-where near good enough to bowl in a game, but if he was to ever decide to go back to it (Wrist-spinning) it looks like one he'd get right if he worked on it.

I would like to see this!

I'm having some good practicing at the moment. I have found a climbing wall in the olympic park which is perfectly angled so if you bowl at it, the ball comes back for the catch! So after midnight the children have left and I can practice there.

I just have to watch for the security car sweeps.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Not a lot happening on here anymore eh?

 

[Billywhizz]

We're all waiting for the next installment on your blog, come on Dave get typing!

Good to see legspin in the Champions trophy: Rashid, Tahir, Khan & Zampa.
Rashid seems to be the pick of the bunch at the moment. He has a delivery out of the front of the hand I couldn't quite see what it was, but it was fizzing and quicker, maybe a Sydney Barnes type of fingery legbreak.
I've been working on the Barnes legbreak and its definitely got potential as a faster skiddy legreak.
Anyone else tried this?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

We're all waiting for the next installment on your blog, come on Dave get typing!

Good to see legspin in the Champions trophy: Rashid, Tahir, Khan & Zampa.
Rashid seems to be the pick of the bunch at the moment. He has a delivery out of the front of the hand I couldn't quite see what it was, but it was fizzing and quicker, maybe a Sydney Barnes type of fingery legbreak.
I've been working on the Barnes legbreak and its definitely got potential as a faster skiddy legreak.
Anyone else tried this?

Mate, I'm a teacher and it's the end of the year, I'm shot to pieces with assessment and trying to get kids through their end of year assessments etc. Yeah I'll see what I can do though. Thanks for reading it!

I'm working on a straight ball as well - more of a fingery top-spinner, but the last couple of session I've been bowling a straight ball using the Iverson Gleeson grip, it doesn't turn, but it's so much faster and accurate, a weird option I think with the grip, but it just seems to work better than anything else that I do that is supposed to be a straight ball. I can't see myself using it tomorrow, but another week or so perhaps?

 

[Cleanprophet]

Anyone else tried this?

I didn't know about Sydney Barnes and his grip/action, but I've been trying it a bit in the last few weeks. At the end of a net session, I decided to bowl the flipper (after not bowling it for well over a year). The problem with my flipper is that I just can't bowl it properly because I can only bowl it if I bowl with a straight wrist. I can't disguise it at all, so it is immediately clear to pick.

However, what I decided to try and do was disguise the legspinner by bowling that with a straight wrist and using only fingerspin. I just wanted to see if the batter I was bowling to (who could easily pick the flipper) could spot whether I was bowling the flipper or the fingerspun legspinner with the straight wrist. He couldn't. The fingerspun legspinner was much easier to bowl accurately, but I haven't bowled it again since or ever bowled it in a match. It did feel a bit Sunil Narine and I'd have to work on it to be able to bowl it with real energy.

 

[SLA]

Sydney Barnes bowled 80mph leg-cutters. Stuart Broad sometimes bowls a ball like this. Is that what you're talking about?

 

[Billywhizz]

Sydney Barnes bowled 80mph leg-cutters. Stuart Broad sometimes bowls a ball like this. Is that what you're talking about?

I've got the book on Barnes where his grip is shown and recently managed to get hold of the Barnes documentary.
In his own words he says he did not bowl cutters but was a genuine spin bowler and spun the ball both ways to leg & off.
His speed was more in the 70's from what witness's reported.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod...ights-2017-first-semifinal-pakistan-v-england

Here is the link to that Rashid ball out of the front of the hand, two different camera angles at 36.23

 

[SLA]

I've got the book on Barnes where his grip is shown and recently managed to get hold of the Barnes documentary.
In his own words he says he did not bowl cutters but was a genuine spin bowler and spun the ball both ways to leg & off.
His speed was more in the 70's from what witness's reported.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod...ights-2017-first-semifinal-pakistan-v-england

Here is the link to that Rashid ball out of the front of the hand, two different camera angles at 36.23

Well he would say that, wouldn't he. His terminology would not be the same as our terminology.

"Barnes said that he did not bowl a ball without spinning it and that was the reason for the success that he obtained. He released the ball when it was at its highest point above his head and from a cocked wrist and hand straightening whipped it down and without any rotation of the wrist or turning over of the hand imparted the required spin to it."

ie, a cutter. Photographs of his grip show completely orthodox cross-seam cutter grips.

 

[Billywhizz]

Well he would say that, wouldn't he. His terminology would not be the same as our terminology.

"Barnes said that he did not bowl a ball without spinning it and that was the reason for the success that he obtained. He released the ball when it was at its highest point above his head and from a cocked wrist and hand straightening whipped it down and without any rotation of the wrist or turning over of the hand imparted the required spin to it."

ie, a cutter. Photographs of his grip show completely orthodox cross-seam cutter grips.

If you scroll down on the webpage you pasted from, you will see this about his legbreak.

'This grip would then enable the fingers to apply anti-clockwise spin powerfully, easily and quickly. With this unique grip of Barnes the ball can be spun vigorously and quickly. The position of the first finger for leg break and the second for the off break seem to be the key to bowling both quickly.'

The pics of the Barnes grip on the same site don't look like the cutter grip to me.

 

[SLA]

If you scroll down on the webpage you pasted from, you will see this about his legbreak.

'This grip would then enable the fingers to apply anti-clockwise spin powerfully, easily and quickly. With this unique grip of Barnes the ball can be spun vigorously and quickly. The position of the first finger for leg break and the second for the off break seem to be the key to bowling both quickly.'

The pics of the Barnes grip on the same site don't look like the cutter grip to me.

But that is that bloke's personal theory, which is abject nonsense, whereas the bit I quoted was a direct quote.

The technical difference between a spin delivery and a cutter is that if the wrist extends during delivery, its an off break/leg break, if the wrist flexes, its a cutter. Everything I have ever read about Barnes, and I've been reading about him for 20+ years, and ever picture I've ever seen, suggests that he flexed his wrist during delivery. So he bowled cutters.

 

[Billywhizz]

Aaah!! I see clearly now! all the techniques are illustrated in this video

 

[SLA]

If you're not interested in talking about cricket, why are you here? Go troll somewhere else.

 

[boogiespinner]

We're all waiting for the next installment on your blog, come on Dave get typing!

Good to see legspin in the Champions trophy: Rashid, Tahir, Khan & Zampa.
Rashid seems to be the pick of the bunch at the moment. He has a delivery out of the front of the hand I couldn't quite see what it was, but it was fizzing and quicker, maybe a Sydney Barnes type of fingery legbreak.
I've been working on the Barnes legbreak and its definitely got potential as a faster skiddy legreak.
Anyone else tried this?

Yes, was going to post about this! I've tried a few recently in the nets and a couple of times they've been coming out and were looking downright nasty..!