Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

[Darth Spin]

Maybe you are leaving it too late to get your wrist into the wrong un position as you bring your arm over. Or is that too obvious/simplistic? It's desirable to leave it as late as possible but that's not always achievable, e.g. when learning or if not bowling particularly well on the day. Does that make sense?

As regards the video I disagree with it on a couple of points. Although it's a nice googly it screams "googly coming up!", where is the disguise? Now, I am still a very inexperienced wrist spinner and might be talking utter rubbish, but I defer to Philpott on this in that you don't HAVE to dip the shoulder and you don't necessarily HAVE to raise your arm to almost verticle like in that delivery.

 

[Cleanprophet]

Maybe you are leaving it too late to get your wrist into the wrong un position as you bring your arm over. Or is that too obvious/simplistic? It's desirable to leave it as late as possible but that's not always achievable, e.g. when learning or if not bowling particularly well on the day. Does that make sense?

As regards the video I disagree with it on a couple of points. Although it's a nice googly it screams "googly coming up!", where is the disguise? Now, I am still a very inexperienced wrist spinner and might be talking utter rubbish, but I defer to Philpott on this in that you don't HAVE to dip the shoulder and you don't necessarily HAVE to raise your arm to almost verticle like in that delivery.

I did consider that my release point my be too late and, effectively, the hand pulls into a position to prevent the ball just lobbing up. The main issue is that I haven't really been flicking the ball out. I think I've come up with something to help with that and it seemed to work when I tried it yesterday. I stand with my back to the target and flick the ball up over my head. The release is a wrong un release with the back of the hand facing the target and the ball spinning up and out of the hand (towards my face and over my head). After a dozen or so deliveries, I stand side-on to the target and flick the ball over the side of my head. Again, getting the back of the hand facing the target and the ball spinning up and out of the hand. Finally, I then stand facing the target and bowl the wrong un. It's all about getting that feeling of the wrist flicking upwards and the ball spinning out off the 3rd and 4th finger. The signs were positive that it may help me finally get the release right, but I'll have to do this a good few times until I do get the release.

That video shows, what I would call, a complete wrong un. It's great for showing the technique of the release. The dropping of the left shoulder is probably down to the individual. Some may need to do and some may not. On that video the ball spins in a fair bit. As mentioned earlier in this thread, the more the ball spins in, the more obvious the wrong un probably is. If that bowler didn't drop his front shoulder and bowled with a bit more overspin, it would be a tougher delivery to pick.

 

[SLA]

There are two types of wrong'un like there are two types of topspinner, is that not correct? Which type are we talking about here?

 

[shahidpak]

It's a strange one. I always thought I bowled naturally with more side spin and that would make a wrong un that much tougher. But I actually tend to bowl the ball with about 80% over spin and 20% side spin. I watched a video of my bowling and saw that the back of my hand naturall points somewhere between cover and point. Watching that left me thinking that I should be able to bowl the top spinner and the wrong un without too much problem. That said, I can bowl that slider very nicely (I probably had the slider before I even had the leggie fully nailed down) and the slider is generally, as you say, a delivery that good bowlers of a wrong us struggle with.

I remember seeing someone try leg spin for the first time last season and he was bowling wrong uns almost entirely. He just couldn't get any side spin on it at all. I remember someone saying that it is more natural to bowl a wrong un than a leggie. Maybe it is, but that seems odd to me of it is (it would I suppose given that I can't bowl the wrong un).

I suspect that I need to get that twist/snap at the point of release. There must be something in my action, a sub-conscious thing, that pushes me into more of a leg spinning release when I try to flick the ball out. I have to work on getting that flick with a wrong un action and that will mean doing some practice. That excersize that Macca mentioned of bowling against a wall and getting the ball coming around the 4th finger is something I'll try. I suspect/hope that once I get that release right, I'll make a bit of a breakthrough.

This looks like a good video of how to bowl a wrong un. There are some clips of the wrong un (one from Imran Tahir) that shows little or no contact from the 4th finger. This one, I think, shows exactly what you are looking for when bowling the textbook wrong un:

Maybe you should get a bit more front on for the GOOGLY ?

 

[Cleanprophet]

There are two types of wrong'un like there are two types of topspinner, is that not correct? Which type are we talking about here?

To be honest, I'm not aware of different types of top spinners or wrong uns.

Maybe you should get a bit more front on for the GOOGLY ?

Oh yeah, I will do when I bowl it properly. The work I've done being back-on and side-on is just to work on getting used to the flick of the wrist and ball release of the wrong un.

 

[SLA]

To be honest, I'm not aware of different types of top spinners or wrong uns.

You can either bowl it with the thumb facing the batsman and the ball spinning out over the side of the 3rd finger,

or with the back of the hand facing the batsman and the ball coming off the end of the fingers like in that clip.

I think we need to establish first which type you are trying to bowl.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

It's a strange one. I always thought I bowled naturally with more side spin and that would make a wrong un that much tougher. But I actually tend to bowl the ball with about 80% over spin and 20% side spin. I watched a video of my bowling and saw that the back of my hand naturall points somewhere between cover and point. Watching that left me thinking that I should be able to bowl the top spinner and the wrong un without too much problem. That said, I can bowl that slider very nicely (I probably had the slider before I even had the leggie fully nailed down) and the slider is generally, as you say, a delivery that good bowlers of a wrong us struggle with.

I remember seeing someone try leg spin for the first time last season and he was bowling wrong uns almost entirely. He just couldn't get any side spin on it at all. I remember someone saying that it is more natural to bowl a wrong un than a leggie. Maybe it is, but that seems odd to me of it is (it would I suppose given that I can't bowl the wrong un).

I suspect that I need to get that twist/snap at the point of release. There must be something in my action, a sub-conscious thing, that pushes me into more of a leg spinning release when I try to flick the ball out. I have to work on getting that flick with a wrong un action and that will mean doing some practice. That excersize that Macca mentioned of bowling against a wall and getting the ball coming around the 4th finger is something I'll try. I suspect/hope that once I get that release right, I'll make a bit of a breakthrough.

This looks like a good video of how to bowl a wrong un. There are some clips of the wrong un (one from Imran Tahir) that shows little or no contact from the 4th finger. This one, I think, shows exactly what you are looking for when bowling the textbook wrong un:

Looking at the vid you linked, that is a weak Wrong-un, primarily top spin, it had hardly any side spin on it, but it works, so obviously sufficient I guess?

Not wanting to be pedantic - but, when you say 'slider' are you talking about the Orthodox Back-Spinner (OBS)? I think it was probably me that said bowling the wrong-un was more of a natural action, but I was up-dating one of my blogs a while back and was looking for the point of reference for that claim and couldn't find it, I'm pretty sure it's in Ashley Mallett's book about Grimmett in a section where he discusses one of the blokes Grimmett bowled in tandem with. But short of re-reading the book I couldn't find the excerpt. But on the basis of my own empirical observations and experiences, I found the leg-break difficult to learn (Still learning), whereas the wrong-un came far easier, once I got my shoulder dipping and built the muscles to survive the massive jar involved in the Wrong-un, I found the action far easier to bowl with and far more accurate. The only downside is that it totally screwed my Leg Break. As most of you might be aware, it took 2-3 years to recover the Leg Break and now my Wrong Un is a shadow of it's former self, but lurking there waiting for me to come back over to the 'Dark side'. I bowl a top-spinner (badly at the moment) that has a lot of the wrong-un about it, tempting me to dip that shoulder, twist, the arm and wrist that bit more to get it going. I'm happy with my Wrong-un esque Top-Spinner it works well, just needs a bit of work though.

 

[SLA]

Not wanting to be pedantic - but, when you say 'slider' are you talking about the Orthodox Back-Spinner (OBS)? I think it was probably me that said bowling the wrong-un was more of a natural action, but I was up-dating one of my blogs a while back and was looking for the point of reference for that claim and couldn't find it, I'm pretty sure it's in Ashley Mallett's book about Grimmett in a section where he discusses one of the blokes Grimmett bowled in tandem with. But short of re-reading the book I couldn't find the excerpt. But on the basis of my own empirical observations and experiences, I found the leg-break difficult to learn (Still learning), whereas the wrong-un came far easier, once I got my shoulder dipping and built the muscles to survive the massive jar involved in the Wrong-un, I found the action far easier to bowl with and far more accurate. The only downside is that it totally screwed my Leg Break. As most of you might be aware, it took 2-3 years to recover the Leg Break and now my Wrong Un is a shadow of it's former self, but lurking there waiting for me to come back over to the 'Dark side'. I bowl a top-spinner (badly at the moment) that has a lot of the wrong-un about it, tempting me to dip that shoulder, twist, the arm and wrist that bit more to get it going. I'm happy with my Wrong-un esque Top-Spinner it works well, just needs a bit of work though.

I think most people know what a slider is, there are plenty of videos on youtube if anyone is in any doubt, but I have to admit I have no idea what an "orthodox backspinner" is.

 

[Spin Lizard]

I think most people know what a slider is, there are plenty of videos on youtube if anyone is in any doubt, but I have to admit I have no idea what an "orthodox backspinner" is.

It seems this is Peter Philpott's name for the slider. (wiki: slider)

 

[macca]

It seems this is Peter Philpott's name for the slider. (wiki: slider)

Yeah that's right, you have "the" slider and "a" slider.

 

[Cleanprophet]

You can either bowl it with the thumb facing the batsman and the ball spinning out over the side of the 3rd finger,

or with the back of the hand facing the batsman and the ball coming off the end of the fingers like in that clip.

I think we need to establish first which type you are trying to bowl.

To be honest, either or will do for me. I've not looked into it in much detail, so I didn't know about the differing ways to getting the ball move into the batter. I assume the delivery with the thumb facing the batter is the one where the ball comes out around the 4th finger? The other, in the clip, is where the ball comes out over the top of the 3rd and 4th fingers?

 

[Cleanprophet]

Yeah that's right, you have "the" slider and "a" slider.

I don't think I can bowl a slider with very much (if any) backspin. You would have to have the thumb pointing back towards yourself as described in that wiki. I used to think that's what I was doing until I saw a video of me bowling it. My thumb is pointing more towards cover rather right back towards me. The spin on the ball is almost all side-spin. Funnily enough, last night I was watching a piece Warne did back in England during the Ashes. He was speaking about finding the balance of over-spin, side-spin and pace on each pitch you play on as you find your stock delivery for that particular pitch. But, he also spoke about the slider. Essentially, as Nasser Hussien said (from the batter's point of view), it looks like it should spin a lot but goes straight on and can be pushed out with pace. Because you are not dragging your fingers over the ball as you would a normal delivery, the ball slides out with a bit more pace on it.

Again, it all depends on the individual. It may well be that some people can flick the ball out under their hand, with their thumb pointing back towards them. If they can do that, the direction of the spin will look like that of an off-spinner, but as the ball is actually spinning backwards the spin is right to left and with back spin. Then, you will get that carry through the air and low bounce. It would be an amazing delivery if it could be bowled. I've tried it and I can only get a very small amount of back-spin because I just can't rotate around enough to release the ball with my thumb point back towards me.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

It seems this is Peter Philpott's name for the slider. (wiki: slider)

Jesus, that is such a poor piece of research, not once in Philpotts book 'The Art of Wrist Spin Bowling' does he mention the 'Slider' and I've not come across any other reference to a 'slider' in other Philpott books. The references to messed up Big Leg Breaks and Orthodox back-spinners sometimes seems to elicit descriptions of balls that 'Slide or skid on', but as far as I can make out it's not till the 1990's when Warne started to mess about with peoples heads did he then adopt the term. It may be that he was never able to bowl a proper OBS with an up-right seam like Jenner/Philpott could, and assigned the term 'Slider' to his attempts at the OBS? Perhaps eventually realising that the ball was affective?

I've got to admit I am a bit obsessive with the notion of a slider and I like my variations written and explained in books, written by eminent bowlers. Only then am I willing to accept them as verified deliveries. Videos of Warne describing sliders, are probably a part of his psychological games that he played with the media. If Warne was to ever write a book in the same way that Grimmett and Philpott have - explicitly describing the slider as a ball that comes out of the hand with a scrambled seam, spinning backwards with very little spin on it as one of his early coaches describes, I'd buy into as a proper delivery, but till then I'm with Jenner and scoff at it as a proper wrist-spin delivery!

 

[someblokecalleddave]

I think most people know what a slider is, there are plenty of videos on youtube if anyone is in any doubt, but I have to admit I have no idea what an "orthodox backspinner" is.

The orthodox back-spinner is a 'Proper' verified wrist spin delivery, as far as I'm aware first described by Grimmett in his book 'Getting Wickets' back in 1930 and then described again by Philpott in his 1995 in his book. It may be the case that blokes that preceded Grimmett may have also described the OBS, but I've yet to read about them at this point. SLA, if Sliders are so prevalent within the field of wrist spin, who is noted to be the inventor of such a ball and where is it explicitly described, as I'd love to see it?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

I don't think I can bowl a slider with very much (if any) backspin. You would have to have the thumb pointing back towards yourself as described in that wiki. I used to think that's what I was doing until I saw a video of me bowling it. My thumb is pointing more towards cover rather right back towards me. The spin on the ball is almost all side-spin. Funnily enough, last night I was watching a piece Warne did back in England during the Ashes. He was speaking about finding the balance of over-spin, side-spin and pace on each pitch you play on as you find your stock delivery for that particular pitch. But, he also spoke about the slider. Essentially, as Nasser Hussien said (from the batter's point of view), it looks like it should spin a lot but goes straight on and can be pushed out with pace. Because you are not dragging your fingers over the ball as you would a normal delivery, the ball slides out with a bit more pace on it.

Again, it all depends on the individual. It may well be that some people can flick the ball out under their hand, with their thumb pointing back towards them. If they can do that, the direction of the spin will look like that of an off-spinner, but as the ball is actually spinning backwards the spin is right to left and with back spin. Then, you will get that carry through the air and low bounce. It would be an amazing delivery if it could be bowled. I've tried it and I can only get a very small amount of back-spin because I just can't rotate around enough to release the ball with my thumb point back towards me.

Yes, it is probably an amazing delivery (The Orthodox back-spinner), but there are very few people that can bowl it, it's nigh-on impossible to do properly.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Here's a challenge... No doubt, you've all got books. Have a look through your books and see if anyone of you can find a description of a Slider. Not an Orthodox Back-Spinner... "A Slider". I don't care who it comes from - Jenner, Philpott, Benaud, Mallett, Warne, Wilkins - any wrist spinner that has ever played high level cricket, or any commentator who has done research with the use maybe of high speed camera and has recorded it being bowled consistently in a manner conducive with it being a real variation as opposed as a proper delivery that's been messed up in the process of being bowled. You can't use Amol Rajan, he's club player. The internet doesn't count, it's all copied or made up. Let's see if we can ascertain along with credible evidence where it comes from and who first described it, maybe who might be able to make claim to it as their own delivery?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

http://www.espncricinfo.com/wisdenalmanack/content/story/287315.html
This article here which supports that wiki-link as far as I can recall is a pile of crap. The story here that Atherton (The author) reiterates, involving Doug Ring and Richie Benaud isn't about 'The Slider' at all, but the Flipper! In the description Ring or Benuad talk about a ball that slides on, but that's because it's a back-spinning Flipper!!!!!

I'm getting annoyed now! I'm going to have a look at the story again in case it's me that's confused.

 

[SLA]

This is my understanding:

the slider is the oldest variation in wrist spin bowling. It predates the googly, it predates the flipper. The name has only been used consistently for the past 10 years, but the delivery itself is over 100 years old.

Most legspinners bowl one, and there is slo mo footage of a variety of different legspinners available that show that they all bowl it in exactly the same way, with the fingers running down the back of the ball.

Philpott's method is a myth, no-one would ever bowl a delivery like that. There is no footage available of it because no-one has ever bowled it in a match situation.

The name slider is mere convention. We've just all agreed to call it that because then we all know what we're talking about.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

This is my understanding:

the slider is the oldest variation in wrist spin bowling. It predates the googly, it predates the flipper. The name has only been used consistently for the past 10 years, but the delivery itself is over 100 years old.

Most legspinners bowl one, and there is slo mo footage of a variety of different legspinners available that show that they all bowl it in exactly the same way, with the fingers running down the back of the ball.

Philpott's method is a myth, no-one would ever bowl a delivery like that. There is no footage available of it because no-one has ever bowled it in a match situation.

The name slider is mere convention. We've just all agreed to call it that because then we all know what we're talking about.

Yep, the two finger down the back is one of three ways a slider type ball is bowled. So, if your take on the Orthodox back-spinner is myth why then is Philpott not seen as a joke, Grimmett as a Charlatan. All the accounts of Warne bowling the OBS dismissed as flawed and Terry Jenner a liar too? That would mean pages 42,43 and 44 need to be completely removed from Philpotts book, Richie Benaud needs to re-write his books and Grimmett was a liar too? It also means the bloke at my club bowls a ball that is an optical illusion too, because like Benaud at one stage in his career, he bowls virtually nothing but the Orthodox back-spinner with an upright seam?

With regards the evidence in videos, the masters of these deliveries are now in the past and therefore never recorded using high speed video footage? There's an ECB video with Jenner bowling a very convincing OBS if you've got access to it.

 

[macca]

http://www.espncricinfo.com/wisdenalmanack/content/story/287315.html
This article here which supports that wiki-link as far as I can recall is a pile of crap. The story here that Atherton (The author) reiterates, involving Doug Ring and Richie Benaud isn't about 'The Slider' at all, but the Flipper! In the description Ring or Benuad talk about a ball that slides on, but that's because it's a back-spinning Flipper!!!!!

I'm getting annoyed now! I'm going to have a look at the story again in case it's me that's confused.

Dave, Atherton is right, the Doug Ring ball is not the flipper. Doolan taught Benaud the flipper. Doug Ring was the first bloke to bowl what Philpott confusingly called the "backspinning topspinner". Grimmett didn't bowl one.

Benaud was calling that ball his "slider" back in the 50's. You call it an orthodox backspinner, which throws some people thinking you're talking fingerspin.

Philpott played with Benaud many times for NSW. I will dig out Philpottds description from his 1977 book about how often Benaud would bowl the backspinner off the wrist spinners clock opposite the wristspinners topspinner. Philpott writes how this "backspinning topspinner" was far more effective for Benaud than the flipper.

It is like rubbing your tummy and patting your head at the same time, or whatever that thing is you are not supposed to be able to do, at first when you try it but it will help your big legbreak learning it.

Then you have "a" slider which is what most people mean by slider in cricket these days. That is the oldest variation, using a few different ways to roll the fingers like a seamer and get a backspinner. I notice these days TV commentators use the term to descibe any ball from a slow bowler that they say "slides" past the batsman and doesn't spin.

Like I said there is "the" slider and a "slider".