Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

[chippyben]

I had my second go at bowling legspin in a match ever today. It was a T20. We set a pretty low target of 115 and lost by 6 wickets. I actually opened, bowling leg spin with the new ball. I was bowling into a massive headwind coming from fine leg. The ground is right on the coast. I got hit for two 4's in the first over and was 0/11. I got a second over and the first ball went for 4 and I had a word with the captain about reverting back to pace. Anyway I persisted and got a wicket with the next ball, a mistimed shot to mid on. Then two balls later I got another wicket, caught behind from a cut shot. I appealled loudly but the umpire wasn't going to give it but thankfully the batsman walked. I always wlk so maybe it was good karma for me. The next over I bowled 2 legside wides to a lefthander although they only just missed his pads but they are the rules in T20. I finished with 2/22 off 3 although I was very happy considering I went for 15 in the first 7 balls and some of the singles turned into 2's because of poor fielding. Once I realised I had to really give it some effort into the wind(gale) I bowled really well and got some nice turn too. The wind really helped the ball dip although at that strength it was hard to judge line and length.
All in all it was most satisfying to get both openers out. Only 2 other wickets were taken in the match and it was a strange feeling to get wickets and watch the pace bowlers toil away and get nothing, having been in that situation so many times myself.
I thanked the captain of our team, (different from our saturday captain). He has seen me bowling in the nets and had faith enough in me and the guts to keep me on after that first over.

 

[chippyben]

Then Cricinfo and the ICC must be from another planet as well:

As the ICC recently admitted, some degree of elbow straightening has been detected in 99% of bowlers, including the likes of Courtney Walsh and Glenn McGrath. By the letter of the law as it has stood for over a century, thus, most bowlers are chuckers. In the light of this, the law clearly needs to be amended, and the ICC has tried to do just that, with its recommended guidelines of what degree of flexion is permissable. These guidelines, as Mukul Kesavan explains in the excellent piece that I linked to in my last post, are arbitary, and should be modified so that they are "uniform and enforcable".​

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/story/135220.html

--

Unfortunately the news link given in that paragraph in that article is no longer valid as this was way back in 2004. Even Murali commented about it, which is also on cricinfo as well.

EDIT: Here's another, more detailed, piece on it:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/story/141558.html

I have done a bit of research on Murali today and I must admit being a bit ignorant about him before and possibly wrong about him. I'm still not 100% convinced every ball he has bowled has been legal though but I am a lot less suspicious of it now, especially after seeing how flexible his shoulder and wrist are on a video on youtube (proof that Mattiah Muralitharan does not chuck)and how it is an optical illusion. But Ravi Shastri having him as one of his clients and presenting the proof video, well there is maybe a hidden agenda there.
The thing is its a shame because he is such a nice and humble little bloke. What concerns me about the new rules is that fast bowlers who have their arms straight when bowling , bend and flex at the elbow involutarily because of the forces in the action. Now because the angle of flexion is greater some off spin bowlers are actually intentionly straightening the arm from the 15degree limit to get that extra bit on the ball. This to me is completely outside the spirit of the game and is opening up another problem down the track.
Maybe the solution is to have everyone bowl with casts to keep the arm straight(god I hope not)

 

[chippyben]

Looking around the consensus is that the Zooter is a ball bowled with little or no spin out of the front of the hand, sounds almost as innocious as the Knuckle Ball, but obviously can be used to good affect if bowled as a variation when the batsman is looking to play for spin.

Sorry Jim I'm with Dave on this one. I call the round the loop backspinner a slider too. I noticed on your you tube videos that your "slider" still has the palm of the hand facing the batsman at the very moment of release like the hard spun leg break. Its such a hard ball to get pure backspin on without opening your body right up at relaese.
One thing I do very much agree with you on is getting some kind of standardisation on wrist position at release for different variations. My suggestion is maybe clock direction in relation to the palm of the hand. That is the batsman is 12 oclock.
For a hard(square) spun leg break the palm is facing 12oclock
For a topspinner the palm is facing 3 oclock
For a wrong un the palm is facing 6 oclock
For the slider the palm is facing 9 oclock
Variations of the leg break between 12 and 3 oclock and so on
There may be a better method but this seems logical to me and a lot less confusing.

 

[Jim2109]

Sorry Jim I'm with Dave on this one. I call the round the loop backspinner a slider too. I noticed on your you tube videos that your "slider" still has the palm of the hand facing the batsman at the very moment of release like the hard spun leg break. Its such a hard ball to get pure backspin on without opening your body right up at relaese.
One thing I do very much agree with you on is getting some kind of standardisation on wrist position at release for different variations. My suggestion is maybe clock direction in relation to the palm of the hand. That is the batsman is 12 oclock.
For a hard(square) spun leg break the palm is facing 12oclock
For a topspinner the palm is facing 3 oclock
For a wrong un the palm is facing 6 oclock
For the slider the palm is facing 9 oclock
Variations of the leg break between 12 and 3 oclock and so on
There may be a better method but this seems logical to me and a lot less confusing.

the only reason there are articles mis-explaining the Zooter is because the people writing them have no idea what they are talking about. Warnes "Zooter" is his hard spun round-the-loop backspinner. his "Slider" is either the finger drag, or a scrambled seam leg break. that ought to be the universal phrase, especially since off spinners say they can bowl sliders!

on my videos my wrist never gets round 100%, but the fingers compensate. ive not got video of the seam position, but can assure you it comes out as pure backspin when i get it right. of every Zooter i bowl id estimate about 1 in 5 come out perfectly, 3 in 5 come out with small amounts of leg spin and turn small, but still exhibit the bounce effects. and then 1 in 5 has too much side spin and absolutely rips. the thing is, theres no downside to it! when you get it wrong it comes out as a monster leg break, and when you get it right it has the sharp up-down bounce and stays low whilst losing pace off the pitch. its also flighted just like a leg break, so no batsmen will ever pick it. it drifts the same as well. the first they know about it is when it dies off the pitch and goes straight. it always causes batsmen problems, even good ones. hence its my number 1 variation beside the leg break.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

I think we've discussed before that there's confusion with regards to the names of the deliveries and that Warne being the very best at the game of psychology and bamboozling people trying to put the fear of God into them, is no doubt not beyond coming up with descriptions and names for deliveries. Also if you trying to bowl these deliveries and you come up with some bastardised version of them, you'll no doubt refer to them as your slider. We know that these days Finger spinners have their arm ball described as being a slider, but as far as I'm aware they're not putting prolific amounts of backspin on them.

When was the term Zooter coined and by whom, as far as I know it's a relatively new term that came into use decades after the slider was invented. Maybe we should all beg to differ and just say 'My back spinner' and then have a brief explanation of how it's bowled so that the rest of us can say to ourselves 'Oh - know what he means - it's a *********' without having to get too hung up on it all?

 

[sadspinner]

I think we've discussed before that there's confusion with regards to the names of the deliveries and that Warne being the very best at the game of psychology and bamboozling people trying to put the fear of God into them, is no doubt not beyond coming up with descriptions and names for deliveries. Also if you trying to bowl these deliveries and you come up with some bastardised version of them, you'll no doubt refer to them as your slider. We know that these days Finger spinners have their arm ball described as being a slider, but as far as I'm aware they're not putting prolific amounts of backspin on them.

When was the term Zooter coined and by whom, as far as I know it's a relatively new term that came into use decades after the slider was invented. Maybe we should all beg to differ and just say 'My back spinner' and then have a brief explanation of how it's bowled so that the rest of us can say to ourselves 'Oh - know what he means - it's a *********' without having to get too hung up on it all?

I think you are right it is all about semantics. Philpott as well says that throughout history all good leggies had one or more backspinners, but he does not elaborate much more as if I am right he says, these were guarded secrets. It implies that this type of delivery must have got them many wickets, or else they had none of the deliveries and were bluffing . I rather believe it was the former.

 

[macca]

Here is a good article by bob simpson on warnes development of his backspinner http://www.hinduonnet.com/tss/tss3001/stories/20070106000201700.htm simpson told warne it was called the backspinning topspinner, then here we go, warne called it his zooter.

but simpson goes on to say he later called it his slider and over! maybe under the influence of jenner and maybe benaud who both clled it a slider at different stages. Benaud had a few names for it but settled on slider probably from baseball influence.

simpson was close to philpott, benaud and warne so we have to take what he says seriously. he was a good legspinner himself

bob holland learnt the what he called the backspinning topspinner from philpott,simpson and benaud. he says these days it would be called a zooter. the idea of a palm ball might come from how the ball leaves the hand from the batsmans pov.

 

[macca]

I finished with 2/22 off 3

All in all it was most satisfying to get both openers out. Only 2 other wickets were taken in the match and it was a strange feeling to get wickets and watch the pace bowlers toil away and get nothing, having been in that situation so many times myself.
I thanked the captain of our team, (different from our saturday captain). He has seen me bowling in the nets and had faith enough in me and the guts to keep me on after that first over.

yeah if you get presented with a strong headwind in theory that is ideal, but not much good unless you are used to the conditions. I tell you, wait to you get a hot westerly gale on day 4 of a heatwave, you can come from the south and drift a legbreak a foot to 18" easy, but only works for you if you can get your aim right.

practise whenever you can in a westerly in the cooler months.

it is good that captain had faith. my young bloke is lucky in that he has blown these new guys away with his bowliing from the outset so that if it does fall in a heap they know what he can do anyway.

 

[macca]

Good thing about the term zooter is it gets the kids in.

if you tell them here is a backspinning topspinner there eyes would glaze over if they could ever grasp the concept.

 

[chippyben]

yeah if you get presented with a strong headwind in theory that is ideal, but not much good unless you are used to the conditions. I tell you, wait to you get a hot westerly gale on day 4 of a heatwave, you can come from the south and drift a legbreak a foot to 18" easy, but only works for you if you can get your aim right.

practise whenever you can in a westerly in the cooler months.

it is good that captain had faith. my young bloke is lucky in that he has blown these new guys away with his bowliing from the outset so that if it does fall in a heap they know what he can do anyway.

I don't think I have even bowled pace into a headwind as strong as that so it was certainly an experience.We had to play with no bails as they kept blowing off. During the first over when I wasn't giving it enough effort the ball was actually drifting the wrong way and turning even further and I was lucky not to be wided for a couple. I had to aim down leg side to get them on line.
We had a game last year when we had hot westerlies, around the time of those big dust storms, I remember the game stopping every time there was a big gust as we were all blinded by dust from the bare patches on the field. Good fun hey!! I never experienced any of that playing in England.

 

[macca]

I have just been checking the averages for my sons comp on the association website and I had a look at the batting and one boy is averaging 257 runs! from 4 innings and 3 N.Os. And we will be playing him this week. He scored 60 N.O in the first encounter. My son only got a few deliveries at him in that match . We will see how it goes this week. I wont tell my son he is averaging 257, unless he finds out at training. Or maybe it is better he should know.

Each team in the comp has a good legspinner, causing all sorts of trouble when they come on to bowl, but they tend to give up a long hop or full toss and relax the pressure, except my son so far fingers crossed. But it means that each team gets to face a bit of legspin at training so they know what to expect, but still the good length legbreak causes all of them trouble.

Anyway my son still has the best bowling figures of the legspinners in his age group. The most wickets. Now two things that stick out to me, having seen the other leggies now, is my son is the most accurate in length and has by far the biggest pronounced wrist flick of the 5.

The lefthanded kid who holds the rep spot as legspinner still hasn't taken a wicket. He didn't take that many last year either, but has an incredible Econ 1.5. They reckon he is so good and bouncy kids cant hit him. What good is that anyway?

 

[macca]

Holy Hell ! I have just checked out the weet-bix cricket australia website of the leading averages in Oz junior cricket and the kid above is in the current top ten in the whole of Australia for junior batting. the leading average is 501, the bloke my sons team face on saturday is about half that, but you could say he is one of the form players in the whole continent!

Also on the website they have the outstanding bowling figures of the whole of junior cricket on oz, last week some kid took 10 wickets for 1run!

 

[macca]

Ok there it is, on the weet-bix cricket australia website with the Australia wide stats the guy they face next week has the highest u/13 average in australia ( 252) and the third highest in junior cricket in the whole country. Can you believe that ? And my kid will probably be bowling at him this weekend !!!!

I am going to check the site to see where my son is in the bowling averages on that site.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Ok there it is, on the weet-bix cricket australia website with the Australia wide stats the guy they face next week has the highest u/13 average in australia ( 252) and the third highest in junior cricket in the whole country. Can you believe that ? And my kid will probably be bowling at him this weekend !!!!

I am going to check the site to see where my son is in the bowling averages on that site.

Lets hope he has the kid back in the sheds with something a bit special or he makes a total fool of the kid!

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Holy Hell ! I have just checked out the weet-bix cricket australia website of the leading averages in Oz junior cricket and the kid above is in the current top ten in the whole of Australia for junior batting. the leading average is 501, the bloke my sons team face on saturday is about half that, but you could say he is one of the form players in the whole continent!

Also on the website they have the outstanding bowling figures of the whole of junior cricket on oz, last week some kid took 10 wickets for 1run!

That's got to have been some kind of mismatch situation?

 

[macca]

That's got to have been some kind of mismatch situation?

Well it is a mismatch in that the club he plays for has a team in a higher division. He is a rep player and should be in that team. all i could think of is it is for disciplinary reasons. He could also be regraded at any stage, in fact according to association rules he should be.

But how incredible that he is the leading average for u/13 , No 3 in junior cricket, and No 9 in all cricket in the whole country. My wife studied stats and says 252 is not a true average. I mean how could you beat a side in 30/30 cricket where one guy averages 252?

 

[Jim2109]

cricket averages are hugely skewed for bats by the "not out" situation though. essentially if you went a whole season without ever losing a wicket, playing 18 league matches, and "averaging" 5 runs per match (e.g. coming in at number 10 or 11 and hitting a few runs before the end of the innings), then youd have 90 runs for the season, no loss of wicket, so youd average 90 (i think, technically your average would be infinity, but for the season it has to be an actual number so i figure it would be 90?). batting average says little about the quality of the player, because its so easily skewed.

there was a batsman at my last club who would almost never get out. hes the same guy i spoke about bowling to at nets who just played EVERYTHING off the back foot, stood so far back in his crease that he was almost impossible to trouble. he was really short, and had a tiny backlift, and just camped on top of his stumps. he would almost never get out in matches, often he would bat through from number 2 to score about 30 runs in 50 overs. his average was one of the best at the club, but he was never a match winner, and to be honest he didnt really hold innings together most of the time, he just slowed everyone else down. on the odd occasion where the middle order collapsed he was a lot more useful. but his average would suggest he was the best bat in the team, but there were far more talented players in the 50 over format.

the kid averaging over 500 has probably had some very good innings, but more likely just hasnt lost his wicket yet. the same may apply to the kid with 252, or he may have had a couple of monster scores and still lost his wicket once or twice. either way, if your lad can get him out cheaply then that is going to cause some ripples!!

 

[macca]

I am just trying to remember how their first encounter went 6 weeks ago. My son came on and they were 0/50 odd and he got the first wicket, out stumped, with his 3rd ball which brought the bloke with the big average to the crease, because i looked up the scorebook and he was 1st drop. He must have played 3 dot balls because that 1st over was a wicket maiden.

Then in the next over he scored a 4 and a 3 off my sons bowling, there was a runout in that over, but i remember my son beat the bat a few times. but that is his most expensive over this season. He went for 4 runs via a boundary in the next over, probably the same kid. Those two 4's are the only boundaries my boy has gone for so far this season as well. The batsman in question has hit 34 4's and 2 6's this season. He ended up 60 not out that day and my son didn't get another over because everyone got 3 overs that day because it was the first game and our coach was overseas so the boys more or less coached themselves.

I remember he played a glorious cover drive off his bowling too but it went straight to the fieldsman. There was another runout in that last over as well.

So he only had 3 scoring shots played against him in his 18 balls. There was the stumping and the runouts but i remember he bowled very good that day.

Our kids lost that game, their only loss so far, but they have improved a hell of a lot. On that first day my bloke was the only one of our team up to it because of winter training and indoor. The other team had been trialling and training for 10 weeks. They have 4 outstanding players and 8 crap ones. We have 12 pretty good players with no crap players.

 

[macca]

Lets hope he has the kid back in the sheds with something a bit special or he makes a total fool of the kid!

I wouldn't mind the pace guys knocking him over before my son comes on. I am a little bit worried tomorrow might be his day of reckoning. You cant return good figures every single week and his average and strike rate, economy are all way under his long term average. But he is improving all the time, so if that accounts for it i am happy.

 

[sadspinner]

Do you think this is just a chapter taken from woolmer,s book art and science of cricket?