Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

[chippyben]

Whoa! Nearly had the camera a couple of times there! Yeah that's pretty good stuff. I'll have a look at the other clip as well. The only thing I picked up is that you're similar to me in that you over-rotate slightly, I'm not sure how much bearing it has on the outcome, but everyone tells me that over-rotation has a negative effect, it may disipate some of the energy that would other-wise all be directed forwards?

Im not real sure what effect over rotation has. I thought it was a good sign that my whole body was getting into the action and getting around but I havent been getting my weight fully forward and up on my toes so I reckon you could be right in that the power is sideways and not forwards. Im working feverishly on getting good posture and weight tranfer and getting my weight to the right at the moment and taken your advice and bowling off one step or standing start a fair bit just to isolate things. Also doing a lot without a ball just trying to get the feel of things. I re read one of Jims posts from a while ago about my leaning too far to the left and have a few ideas to try to get things right. Who would have thought leg spin could be so hard
I had to lean the camera up against the net to get and good shot and yeah nearly cost myself a few bob there. Im looking forward to you getting a few vids up with the elixim.

 

[chippyben]

My kid didn't have to bowl to superbat today. That batsman has been upgraded and gone up an age-group.

So my sons team won easy. He only got two overs and went for 5runs. so cumulative its 15 2 4/39.

All sorts of regrades this week, dont know where we stand, but our club stuffed up the gradings at the beginning of the year and even though we are leading the comp now, they might not go up. It is complicated but doesn't matter because they are looking like getting a regrade at end of year for sure.

Hey Macca how about a few videos of your son bowling. I reckon we could all learn a bit from him.

 

[Jim2109]

Im not real sure what effect over rotation has.

injuries.

without wanting to sound critical of his advice, doctortran puts up some fantastic technical analyses of bowling actions. and in your case he certainly picked up on a few of the positives of your action. however there was nothing negative, and your action does have a few potentially major problems. these are what i focussed on entirely with my posts at the same time. doctortran wrote chapter and verse on how you are driving your legs. i focussed on your leaning over, over-rotation, lack of synchronicity between upper and lower body, lack of hip drive, etc.

power and fine tuning your bowling action are good things to work on, but ultimately you need to have a solid base action, and correct the mechanical issues first. im not an expert and im in no way qualified, hence my suggestion that you go and see a sports therapist who is! they will examine you and i guarantee you already have major issues developing which need significant gym work to correct, just by looking at your action and the stresses you place on your body (which are quite similar to my own). my insight is based on what i have already been told, and as ive said before, we have fairly similar actions in many ways (with many of the same problems).

at the moment you probably have immediate potential for lower leg injuries because you step across yourself a lot, and then over-rotate back the other way. all of this is done without getting your weight over the front foot and up onto your toes pre-rotation. so all of that force gets loaded up through your lower legs, and youll probably end up with "shin splints" by mid season.

over rotation is also putting stress on the back. as is leaning over. and most significantly the disparity between your upper and lower body is putting the most stress on your body of anything. your upper body is much further advanced through the action than your lower body. this is what i am saying about hip drive. the hips have to get forwards earlier so that the lower body follows through with them. if you get your weight onto your toes earlier in the action then your whole body will move in unison. and youll find that youll make a massive gain in pace, power and spin as soon as you hook it up anyway. leg drive isnt a primary movement in my opinion, it is a resultant of getting the rest of the action working. you cant add it artificially, so personally (and this is exactly what i am doing with my own action at present) i would work on sorting out the lean, sorting out the over rotation, and getting the hip drive and weight transfer correct first. the rest will follow naturally.

firstly though, get yourself checked over by a sports therapist!!!

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Yeah Jesus

Im not real sure what effect over rotation has. I thought it was a good sign that my whole body was getting into the action and getting around but I havent been getting my weight fully forward and up on my toes so I reckon you could be right in that the power is sideways and not forwards. Im working feverishly on getting good posture and weight tranfer and getting my weight to the right at the moment and taken your advice and bowling off one step or standing start a fair bit just to isolate things. Also doing a lot without a ball just trying to get the feel of things. I re read one of Jims posts from a while ago about my leaning too far to the left and have a few ideas to try to get things right. Who would have thought leg spin could be so hard
I had to lean the camera up against the net to get and good shot and yeah nearly cost myself a few bob there. Im looking forward to you getting a few vids up with the elixim.

Jesus yeah - Wrist spin is without doubt the most difficult of all the cricket disciplines - I think that's universally acknowledged and part of the reason it almost disappeared into obscurity during the 1970's and 80's. Yeah I'm asking every other day whether the cameras arrived or not, it's apparently on its way, it's just a matter of time. Once that's here the potential for seeing these releases close up and slow just seems to be phenomenal. I can't wait - I just hope that I can do what I think I'm doing!!!!

 

[macca]

Hey Macca how about a few videos of your son bowling.

Yeah ok i will shoot some new stuff and put it up here. I'd like to get him in a game where he really comes in and spins hard.

He could put "6 in shoebox" on a good length at the moment. Doesn't give the batsman any room either. This is funny though, his 2 shortest balls so far this year have got him 2 wickets and he nearly bowled this kid on saturday with his fullest ball all year. But still no rank long hops or full tosses yet. That sets him apart from all the other spinners in his comp.

He has only gone for 2 boundaries, that was game 1. And 2 wides he has put way out off stump to try for stumpings. I couldn't be happier with how he is bowling.

 

[chippyben]

injuries.

without wanting to sound critical of his advice, doctortran puts up some fantastic technical analyses of bowling actions. and in your case he certainly picked up on a few of the positives of your action. however there was nothing negative, and your action does have a few potentially major problems. these are what i focussed on entirely with my posts at the same time. doctortran wrote chapter and verse on how you are driving your legs. i focussed on your leaning over, over-rotation, lack of synchronicity between upper and lower body, lack of hip drive, etc.

power and fine tuning your bowling action are good things to work on, but ultimately you need to have a solid base action, and correct the mechanical issues first. im not an expert and im in no way qualified, hence my suggestion that you go and see a sports therapist who is! they will examine you and i guarantee you already have major issues developing which need significant gym work to correct, just by looking at your action and the stresses you place on your body (which are quite similar to my own). my insight is based on what i have already been told, and as ive said before, we have fairly similar actions in many ways (with many of the same problems).

at the moment you probably have immediate potential for lower leg injuries because you step across yourself a lot, and then over-rotate back the other way. all of this is done without getting your weight over the front foot and up onto your toes pre-rotation. so all of that force gets loaded up through your lower legs, and youll probably end up with "shin splints" by mid season.

over rotation is also putting stress on the back. as is leaning over. and most significantly the disparity between your upper and lower body is putting the most stress on your body of anything. your upper body is much further advanced through the action than your lower body. this is what i am saying about hip drive. the hips have to get forwards earlier so that the lower body follows through with them. if you get your weight onto your toes earlier in the action then your whole body will move in unison. and youll find that youll make a massive gain in pace, power and spin as soon as you hook it up anyway. leg drive isnt a primary movement in my opinion, it is a resultant of getting the rest of the action working. you cant add it artificially, so personally (and this is exactly what i am doing with my own action at present) i would work on sorting out the lean, sorting out the over rotation, and getting the hip drive and weight transfer correct first. the rest will follow naturally.

firstly though, get yourself checked over by a sports therapist!!!

I had a quick bowl before work this morning with the camera and tried a few things. Firstly I noticed my hips start to rotate from the side on position before my front foot lands. This makes me fall away and my front foot points to the second slip instaed of straight down the wicket or even towards fine leg. So I tried keeping my hips pointing towards the target until my front foot landed. The other thing was good posture, standing tall through the delivery. These two things combined seemed to get me up on my toes without consciously trying to and the power through the pivot felt great and effortless. I felt more round arm although on the video it was pretty much vertical. Tommorrow I'm going to try and get my arm lower although I'm pretty much resigned to the fact my arm is always going to be high and it has its benefits anyway.
My syncronisation has improved a lot in the last few months and its getting there. I still bowl pace on a weekend and I reckon the two types muck me up a bit and it usually takes a couple of net sessions to get my leg spin feeling right again and my upper body not racing ahead.

 

[chippyben]

Yeah ok i will shoot some new stuff and put it up here. I'd like to get him in a game where he really comes in and spins hard.

He could put "6 in shoebox" on a good length at the moment. Doesn't give the batsman any room either. This is funny though, his 2 shortest balls so far this year have got him 2 wickets and he nearly bowled this kid on saturday with his fullest ball all year. But still no rank long hops or full tosses yet. That sets him apart from all the other spinners in his comp.

He has only gone for 2 boundaries, that was game 1. And 2 wides he has put way out off stump to try for stumpings. I couldn't be happier with how he is bowling.

That'd be great.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Don't

I had a quick bowl before work this morning with the camera and tried a few things. Firstly I noticed my hips start to rotate from the side on position before my front foot lands. This makes me fall away and my front foot points to the second slip instaed of straight down the wicket or even towards fine leg. So I tried keeping my hips pointing towards the target until my front foot landed. The other thing was good posture, standing tall through the delivery. These two things combined seemed to get me up on my toes without consciously trying to and the power through the pivot felt great and effortless. I felt more round arm although on the video it was pretty much vertical. Tommorrow I'm going to try and get my arm lower although I'm pretty much resigned to the fact my arm is always going to be high and it has its benefits anyway.
My syncronisation has improved a lot in the last few months and its getting there. I still bowl pace on a weekend and I reckon the two types muck me up a bit and it usually takes a couple of net sessions to get my leg spin feeling right again and my upper body not racing ahead.

I wouldn't worry about the arm, you're trying to correct so many things at the moment that you run the risk of total brain **** and this is supposed to be in some part an enjoyable experience! I'd imagine that bowling the two seperate disciplines doesn't help either? What are you working on primarily? I take it you've done the stand start drill - I found that doing that it focuses your attention on some of the real basics and as it's very simple it highlights that getting some of the really basic things correct has a massive impact on the outcome of what happens to the ball. Or am i over-complicating the complicated?

 

[GoldenArm]

this is an extract from the BBC website today, an article talking about the significance of the kookaburra ball in the Ashes. Duncan Fletcher exhibits an absolutely appalling knowledge of drift/dip for an international level coach:

Perth's Waca is another ground where he expects the ball to swing, especially during the afternoon session with the assistance of the Fremantle Doctor, the sea breeze which cools the scorching temperatures in Western Australia's main city during the summer months.
And reverse swing, the ability to move the older ball in the latter stages of an innings, becomes a significant factor in Adelaide and Sydney, two grounds offering encouragement for spinner Graeme Swann, who also has a vested interest in the 'swingability' of the Kookaburra.

"Swann's great strength is that he gets the ball to drift in its flight, away from the right-handers and in to the left-handers, before breaking the ball back the other way," said former England coach Duncan Fletcher, who orchestrated the 2005 Ashes victory.

​

"An off-spinner's grip angles the seam from mid-off to fine-leg. That is the same as for an inswinger from a fast bowler.
"The drift moves the ball away from the right-handed batsman, against the angle of the seam. If that movement is not there, and the Kookaburra may be less conducive to it, then Swann is not going to be nearly as effective.



Now we know this to be total crap. But I wonder what difference is there for the spinners between a Dukes and a Kookaburra? The thickness of the seam and how quickly it wears down as well as the general longevity of the balls hardness seem to be the only real factors I can think of...

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Not being an officianado of finger spin I couldn't comment on the crapness of the comments, but they sound as though they're right or am I being dim? Anyway the seam - I'm under the impression that a big seam helps. It increases the resistance with the airflow and increases the potential for drift and swing. A big fat rough edge/seam also strikes me as having the potential to make the ball act in an unpredicatable manner off the wicket and out of the rough.

Isn't it the case that we're used to getting the ball to swing here in the UK and that in OZ we have trouble and this has some bearing on the seam and the nature of the Kookaburra ball?

 

[GoldenArm]

well he's basically saying that drift is the same as swing which we know not to be true.

Not being an officianado of finger spin I couldn't comment on the crapness of the comments, but they sound as though they're right or am I being dim? Anyway the seam - I'm under the impression that a big seam helps. It increases the resistance with the airflow and increases the potential for drift and swing. A big fat rough edge/seam also strikes me as having the potential to make the ball act in an unpredicatable manner off the wicket and out of the rough.

Isn't it the case that we're used to getting the ball to swing here in the UK and that in OZ we have trouble and this has some bearing on the seam and the nature of the Kookaburra ball?

well he's basically saying that drift is the same as swing, which we know not to be true.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Oh right - But you get swing with the ball when the seams vertical - flippers for instance. Have a look at this Troy Cooley looking at the differences - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY5L4sJpQe0

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Here's the BBC article, http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/england/9103048.stm

 

[macca]

Oh right - But you get swing with the ball when the seams vertical - flippers for instance. Have a look at this Troy Cooley looking at the differences - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY5L4sJpQe0

What surprises me is in the grimmett books where he talks about the difference between swing and drift and then goes on about how he used to bowl outswingers especially and inswingers mixed in with his legbreaks etc;. Especially early in a match.
So he was bowling seam-up every so often.

 

[Jim2109]

drift is hugely misunderstood. spiderlounge hit the nail on the head in a post on here ages ago with regards the physics.

an overspun leg break will technically swing away. but the magnus effect outweighs swing. on a square leg break initially on its way up it will drift away from the right hander by a small amount. it then reaches the peak height of its flight and the entire way down it will drift back in to the right hander. drift is most pronounced when the ball is changing rapidly in height, so it drifts most at the end of the flight just prior to hitting the ground. this is what makes drift so deadly, because batsmen have already set their feet and chosen their shot prior to the drift occuring. there is no time for them to react to it.

saying that a ball will make a difference to drift is pretty much nonsense though. i dont personally subscribe to weather or balls affecting swing either. its mostly psychological. if you spin the ball hard it will drift and turn, regardless of the weather, location, surface, etc. some pitches help turn more than others, but if you spin it hard enough with a perfect seam youll always get some. swing is the same, if you present the seam properly and bowl at the right speed then it will swing. the condition of the ball only plays a small part, as does the weather. id love to see slow motion video and hawkeye on an entire series of bowling, and examine every delivery by one bowler to see the differences.

 

[macca]

an overspun leg break will technically swing away. but the magnus effect outweighs swing. on a square leg break initially on its way up it will drift away from the right hander by a small amount. it then reaches the peak height of its flight and the entire way down it will drift back in to the right hander.

You can really see that happen if you watch a good legspinner up close. You can see the ball jerk around near the top as it more or less changes direction before it starts to drop down and drift in.

 

[Jim2109]

You can really see that happen if you watch a good legspinner up close. You can see the ball jerk around near the top as it more or less changes direction before it starts to drop down and drift in.

i know im bowling well when i see it in my own bowling. it doesnt happen that often, but lately in nets when i get my action working properly its massively pronounced. i reckon theres sometimes 6-8" of away drift from around off stump, then it comes back in again on the way down, then a big 8-12" just before it hits ground and pitches on leg, and then turns back past off.

its an amazingly satisfying feeling when i see it, if i could replicate it in matches it would be awesome. i played indoor last night for the first XI and didnt bowl again. the captain wont use me for some reason, even though general consensus is that im worth a couple of overs. we are bottom of the league and lost every match, ive played 2 games now for no overs. last night i wasnt happy because i came into bat at 5 (and its now also generally considered that im a pretty solid indoor batsman) with the captain at the other end. we were miles behind with 6 overs left, and he told me to play into the walls and run, dont do anything stupid, no back wall shots, and aim to play out the innings. i said id hit back wall shots if they were easy, and he said if i get out doing it he wont be happy. hes on strike, first ball he runs me out with a stupid run. ****. i was furious, even more so considering what he had just told me! so i grabbed my ball and went over to the net lanes that run alongside the indoor arena and bowled seam up for 10 minutes as hard as i could to get rid of the anger rather than unleashing it on the captain and ruining my chance of getting picked again lol. then i calmed down and bowled leg spin for 5 mins. and instantly from ball 1 ive got my action on the money!! the rotation is just spot on, im driving my hips through, and the ball is doing all sorts

i really need to get a proper practice session in because i havent had one for weeks, and i feel like my action is on the verge of something brilliant. ive got another indoor match in 2 weeks, but for the sunday league not the proper league, so il definitely get my 3 overs in that, i normally open at the 2nd end so i get to bowl at proper batsmen as well. i dont think indoor is as useful for my bowling as i thought though, its very useful for getting better at fielding and batting. i reckon with more practice i can be a genuine all rounder next season, which cant hurt. i just want to bowl leg spin though, but the english weather is having none of it! my gym program is definitely paying dividends, im noticing huge improvements in my bowling and batting already, just through being physically stronger. and ive hardly even got into it yet. if i could find the time to get down the gym 3 or 4 times a week i think the results would be even better.

 

[chippyben]

Don't

I wouldn't worry about the arm, you're trying to correct so many things at the moment that you run the risk of total brain **** and this is supposed to be in some part an enjoyable experience! I'd imagine that bowling the two seperate disciplines doesn't help either? What are you working on primarily? I take it you've done the stand start drill - I found that doing that it focuses your attention on some of the real basics and as it's very simple it highlights that getting some of the really basic things correct has a massive impact on the outcome of what happens to the ball. Or am i over-complicating the complicated?

Im just past the vertical by a degree or 2 so Im just trying to pull it back to straight or a degree or 2 past, nothing major. Saying a lower arm was a bit of a misnomer. My theory is I get enough turn with a high arm action and Im going to embrace its benefits of increased accuracy and bounce but going beyond the vertical limits that accuracy.
I'm actually feeling pretty good about things and just working on good posture,keeping side on, rotating in sync and weight transfer up onto my toes, sounds a lot but when one thing is right generally the others are too. Ive been bowling off one pace recently just to focus things on the action like you say.
When I look at how far my action has improved in the last few months it only gives me encouragment that with hard work it will only get better.
As I'm only new to the art I appreciate your and Jims efforts to steer me in the right direction and away from mistakes you guys have made in the past. My main thing is that I try and get something out of every net session. I may bowl absolute rubbish but if I find something like 'hey if I do this it results in that', or more importantly 'that doesn't work' I feel Im moving forward. So hopefully no bowling time is wasted time.

 

[doctortran]

drift is hugely misunderstood. spiderlounge hit the nail on the head in a post on here ages ago with regards the physics.

an overspun leg break will technically swing away. but the magnus effect outweighs swing. on a square leg break initially on its way up it will drift away from the right hander by a small amount. it then reaches the peak height of its flight and the entire way down it will drift back in to the right hander. drift is most pronounced when the ball is changing rapidly in height, so it drifts most at the end of the flight just prior to hitting the ground. this is what makes drift so deadly, because batsmen have already set their feet and chosen their shot prior to the drift occuring. there is no time for them to react to it.

saying that a ball will make a difference to drift is pretty much nonsense though. i dont personally subscribe to weather or balls affecting swing either. its mostly psychological. if you spin the ball hard it will drift and turn, regardless of the weather, location, surface, etc. some pitches help turn more than others, but if you spin it hard enough with a perfect seam youll always get some. swing is the same, if you present the seam properly and bowl at the right speed then it will swing. the condition of the ball only plays a small part, as does the weather. id love to see slow motion video and hawkeye on an entire series of bowling, and examine every delivery by one bowler to see the differences.

Let's just explain this magnus effect terminology. A golf ball has crevices on it so that it can go further in the air. Smooth surfaces drag (or experience difficulty moving through the air). Hence on a cricket ball it is harder to go through the air on a smooth side compared to a rough side. The ball swings or seams towards what is rough. The roughest thing on a ball is generally not the side of a ball -- BUT THE SEAM (on a brand new ball)! The more pronounced it is the more effect you will see. To maximise the swing you want it as smooth as possible so that the force is directed onto the direction of the ball.

Drift happens the same way. With large rotations, a nice seam, and a ball that isn't too roughed up... the ball will move in the direction of the seam.

Air is heavier than people think. "One cubic metre of air at ground level weighs 1210 gm. A cricket ball weighs 160 gm. A room full of air weighs more than most cricket players." (University of NSW). Imagine the difference that humidity, and even differing air pressures and hence air densities could make. Wind is essentially caused by high pressure wind particles moving towards low pressure areas. If you're in a stiff gale you are in an area in between two largely different air pressure zones (could be hundreds or thousands of kilometres apart). High pressure means lots of air which means accentuation of the effects of swing and spin.

Therefore wind at the WACA can make the ball swing and drift more. Rough surfaces in India can make the ball drift less. And big seams do make the ball drift and swing more.

P.S. don't get me started on reverse swing

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Let's just explain this magnus effect terminology. A golf ball has crevices on it so that it can go further in the air. Smooth surfaces drag (or experience difficulty moving through the air). Hence on a cricket ball it is harder to go through the air on a smooth side compared to a rough side. The ball swings or seams towards what is rough. The roughest thing on a ball is generally not the side of a ball -- BUT THE SEAM (on a brand new ball)! The more pronounced it is the more effect you will see. To maximise the swing you want it as smooth as possible so that the force is directed onto the direction of the ball.

Drift happens the same way. With large rotations, a nice seam, and a ball that isn't too roughed up... the ball will move in the direction of the seam.

Air is heavier than people think. "One cubic metre of air at ground level weighs 1210 gm. A cricket ball weighs 160 gm. A room full of air weighs more than most cricket players." (University of NSW). Imagine the difference that humidity, and even differing air pressures and hence air densities could make. Wind is essentially caused by high pressure wind particles moving towards low pressure areas. If you're in a stiff gale you are in an area in between two largely different air pressure zones (could be hundreds or thousands of kilometres apart). High pressure means lots of air which means accentuation of the effects of swing and spin.

Therefore wind at the WACA can make the ball swing and drift more. Rough surfaces in India can make the ball drift less. And big seams do make the ball drift and swing more.

P.S. don't get me started on reverse swing

I almost wrote a load of Bolx in response to this and then thought I'd better check this out before I go shooting my mouth off. I have had to reassess my understanding of low and high pressure weather systems and how they affect primarily water masses (Surfing) and now potentially cricket balls in cricket ground. I wont even attempt to explain why a cricket ball swings, but I now have some semblence of an idea based on the Doc's info above. But I'll post the info I found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storm_surge and it may help in forming others theories as to why the ball is affected by the weather.