Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

[shrek]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Another decent weekend with both ball and bat - opposition won the toss and elected to bat - first 12 overs their score was 40//0 but opener had just retired when the captain brought me in to bowl. I got a wicket with my very first ball- a little short, batsman gets a topedge on his pull and caught by slip behind the wicket. But it went downhill after that - ball was still new and shiny and it kept slipping out of my hand and I gave away successive noballs and wides to end up with 11 runs off that over- I was taken off immediately (as I should have been). When the skipper was looking to change ends for a left arm orthodox spinner with an offspinner, I chanced my luck and asked for another over - 20th of the innings and this was much better yielding only 3 singles. After the leftarm (slow orthodox, really old and experienced guy) spinner got taken for a few runs, I was reintroduced into the attack and this time, I had really good control - I bowled 29th(2runs), 31st (3 runs) and 33(8 runs). that last over was also quite good except for one short ball which was pulled away for four. I guess captain thought that was enough and brought on quicker bowlers (who went for 10-12 an over ) ) and they reached 212/5 in 40 overs.

I ended with 5-0-27-1 and looked good for more, as the batsmen were unable to get me away. I think more importantly, I have established myself as no:2 spinner in the team so I should get a bowl in every game!

Oh yeah, we won the game with captain providing a brilliant start - 80(53) and I chipped in a 25 batting at no:4, so we make it to the playoffs. Will keep you guys posted should we go all the way to the cup

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

I went down the nets last night and bowled absolute rubbish for an hour and a half. I get very determined when Im bowling rubbish to get back to bowling well but I think if Im not improving Im just practicing bad habits.
I was also pretty tired as I usually am after slogging away at work and I wasnt really concentrating either.
Last night I had a bit of a review of my training methods and was wondering how others train to get the best results and improvement.
I train by putting a target ball 12 foot from the stumps on middle stump. I start bowling leg breaks and trying to be rhythmical and generally keep bowling them til it starts coming out nicely (which can be a few balls or an hour!!!) Then I start going round the loop, topspinner, legbreak, big leg break bowling each one til a good one comes out then moving on. And thats about it except for maybe a few muck around balls at the end. I dont find it boring at all, in fact darkness is all that stops me each evening so its not that I need things to keep me interested its just I want things to help me improve .
I try and really remember what Im doing when Im bowling well to get a bit of a checklist for when Im bowling badly, i.e rhythm, wrist cocked, arm high, tucking elbow in etc.
I bowled very well tonight and I put it down to really visualising what I wanted to do before I bowled it.
Im not sure whether I should be bowling the big leg break in the round the loop or should just practice it purely on its own as we all know its really a different type of ball to the others and am I just confusing myself with the wrist action.
Anyway it'd be good to hear how others train and their thoughts.

i generally either put down a bit of rope in a ring on a good length plus or minus a foot, and on a width starting about 6" outside off, stretching to 12" outside leg. i then aim to land the ball inside the ring, whilst turning it big.

my other method, which is more effective based on recent results, is to use these big blocks of wood that are lying around at my club that are about the size of a set of stumps, and 6" thick. i stand one up in the crease in front of the stumps where i think a batsmans front leg would be (i move it around based on different styles of batsmen) and then my aim is to pitch it on a length where the batsman would have to play, and then to turn the ball in such a way as to beat his imaginary bat. this basically replicates a match situation so im also thinking tactics as well as just repetitious practice.

the other method of course is to bowl at an actual batsman, which i think 30-50% of all practice should be. you learn technique by bowling on your own, but its way too easy to think youre bowling well, when in fact maybe your length is too short or full, and you bowl to an actual batsman and get smashed out of the park. so its good to bowl at sensible batsmen (who treat nets like a match) to verify that your bowling is on the right track.

with regards your determination to turn bad sessions into good ones - im exactly the same, sometimes id bowl awfully for 3 hours, just to get 10 mins of decent balls at the end. but ultimately i think its counter productive. you end up conditioning your body to think that the bad balls are what it should be doing. now if im bowling badly il completely strip my action back to basics, bowl over short distances off one step in slow motion, just to remind myself what i need to be doing. its much more helpful in the long term. otherwise its too easy to stray away from an ideal action, and by the time you realise it youve wasted a season.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

I bowled really well yesterday all day at my sons fun day, I haven't been practicing at all...... As you suggested too much practice when you're not in the right frame of mind might mean you take an hour before something comes out right.

 

[shrek]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

I bowled really well yesterday all day at my sons fun day, I haven't been practicing at all...... As you suggested too much practice when you're not in the right frame of mind might mean you take an hour before something comes out right.

I heard Ian chappell say this on air with regards to pakistan's poor fielding "It also depends on what you practice. If you practice without correcting your mistakes, you are probably practicing how to do the wrong things out in the middle"

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

I went down the nets last night and bowled absolute rubbish for an hour and a half. I get very determined when Im bowling rubbish to get back to bowling well but I think if Im not improving Im just practicing bad habits.
I was also pretty tired as I usually am after slogging away at work and I wasnt really concentrating either.
Last night I had a bit of a review of my training methods and was wondering how others train to get the best results and improvement.
I train by putting a target ball 12 foot from the stumps on middle stump. I start bowling leg breaks and trying to be rhythmical and generally keep bowling them til it starts coming out nicely (which can be a few balls or an hour!!!) Then I start going round the loop, topspinner, legbreak, big leg break bowling each one til a good one comes out then moving on. And thats about it except for maybe a few muck around balls at the end. I dont find it boring at all, in fact darkness is all that stops me each evening so its not that I need things to keep me interested its just I want things to help me improve .
I try and really remember what Im doing when Im bowling well to get a bit of a checklist for when Im bowling badly, i.e rhythm, wrist cocked, arm high, tucking elbow in etc.
I bowled very well tonight and I put it down to really visualising what I wanted to do before I bowled it.
Im not sure whether I should be bowling the big leg break in the round the loop or should just practice it purely on its own as we all know its really a different type of ball to the others and am I just confusing myself with the wrist action.
Anyway it'd be good to hear how others train and their thoughts.

Bigger target needed to start with. You also say you were not concentrating.

Maybe bowl less balls but concentrate fully on each. 6 overs 5 days a week target practise is better than 20 overs twice a week if you concentrate on those 6 overs.

Get a routine where you stand at the top of your mark spinning the ball to yourself and come in, head still watching only your target. A slow repeatable mechanical groove where you switch on intense concentration for those few seconds of delivery. You have to start off with small sessions if you concentrate fully, it is tiring.

Thats my two bobs worth.

 

[shrek]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Bigger target needed to start with. You also say you were not concentrating.

Maybe bowl less balls but concentrate fully on each. 6 overs 5 days a week target practise is better than 20 overs twice a week if you concentrate on those 6 overs.

Get a routine where you stand at the top of your mark spinning the ball to yourself and come in, head still watching only your target. A slow repeatable mechanical groove where you switch on intense concentration for those few seconds of delivery. You have to start off with small sessions if you concentrate fully, it is tiring.

Thats my two bobs worth.

My method of practice involves drawing a square(12" x 12") at good length area with chalk or tape - approx 2 yards out of batting crease. I keep bowling the legbreak again and again and again trying to land it there and each time trying to give it a huge rip. At the start of the session, I have the box placed on the stumps so that I turn it from off-middle to outside off and then as I get into a rhythm, I slowly move further towards leg and end with bowling nearly a foot outside leg and turning it past the off.

Occasionally, I try the topspinner and wrong-un (but always making sure I have atleast 4 leg breaks between these). What I do change is how much I get side-on and that determines the ratio of sidespin and overspin I put.
Having just been cured of the googly syndrome this season after 10 long years(when I gave up bowling and took up keeping), I don't really plan on losing my legbreak anytime soon. Although I do find that my googly is mostly a topspinner, I'm much happier with the legbreak .

I think accuracy comes before any variations because as a spinner, turn is not the only variable available to you. If you can accurately control your line and length, varying flight, pace and length of your deliveries is more subtle at the same time a lot more productive. (and the captains are also willing to give you a longer bowl because they know what to expect)

This method of practice has given me very good control over the legbreak and what I do is vary the point of my delivery on the bowling crease - wider- closer to stumps, bowl from behind the stumps to vary length etc etc.

Of course, even after all that, we aren't good enough(yet) to keep bowling at one spot so we should pick one area where we can err and have it covered. I do it on the full side(sometimes I give away 1 or two low full-tosses in each over) so long on, long off and deep midwicket are three fielders I take most of the time.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

My method of practice involves drawing a square(12" x 12") at good length area with chalk or tape - approx 2 yards out of batting crease. I keep bowling the legbreak again and again and again trying to land it there and each time trying to give it a huge rip. At the start of the session, I have the box placed on the stumps so that I turn it from off-middle to outside off and then as I get into a rhythm, I slowly move further towards leg and end with bowling nearly a foot outside leg and turning it past the off.

Occasionally, I try the topspinner and wrong-un (but always making sure I have atleast 4 leg breaks between these). What I do change is how much I get side-on and that determines the ratio of sidespin and overspin I put.
Having just been cured of the googly syndrome this season after 10 long years(when I gave up bowling and took up keeping), I don't really plan on losing my legbreak anytime soon. Although I do find that my googly is mostly a topspinner, I'm much happier with the legbreak .

I think accuracy comes before any variations because as a spinner, turn is not the only variable available to you. If you can accurately control your line and length, varying flight, pace and length of your deliveries is more subtle at the same time a lot more productive. (and the captains are also willing to give you a longer bowl because they know what to expect)

This method of practice has given me very good control over the legbreak and what I do is vary the point of my delivery on the bowling crease - wider- closer to stumps, bowl from behind the stumps to vary length etc etc.

Of course, even after all that, we aren't good enough(yet) to keep bowling at one spot so we should pick one area where we can err and have it covered. I do it on the full side(sometimes I give away 1 or two low full-tosses in each over) so long on, long off and deep midwicket are three fielders I take most of the time.

Good overall approach, even to the point of overpitching a little in practise. You have to totally eliminate any accidental short ball completely and overpitching a touch on purpose, especially out of season, can help you do this.

 

[chippyben]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

I had a reasonable session again tonight. I think concentration is a big problem for me and I have been bowling aimlessy for a lot of sessions and practicing bad habits. So I made a conscious effort to visualise each delivery and take me more time and slow things down. It is something I need to keep on top of.
I have tried chalking a target on the pitch and landing in it before but I found I was just "putting the ball there and not really ripping it or rotating properly. I think if I can get within 2 foot of my target then it should be a good ball. Having said that I guess its pretty much the same thing. When I first started I used to put a stick or the like across the pitch on a length for a marginally short ball and make sure I never bowled short of it. Now I find I rarely bowl short but overpitch quite a lot which I guess is slightly better but needs improving.
One good thing I found tonight is that if I reach high with my leading arm but at about 45degrees rather than 90degrees i.e straight up it helps me keep my weight forward and get up on my toes and rotate strongly.
Lastly I am just bowling leg breaks now to simplify things until Ive got that spot on. Thanks for all the suggestions

 

[Spiderlounge]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

I was bowling in the nets last night and I'm beginning to get really quite disillusioned. I know it's not supposed to be easy to bowl leg-spin but is it really supposed to be this difficult? At times it feels like my stock ball is the one that loops up into the top of the net and bounces off a crossbar back towards me. It's driving me mad. When I do bowl a good ball I can spin it as hard and turn it as much as anyone at the club, or at least anyone who bothers to come to nets, but landing it in the right place is rare and my accuracy resolutely refuses to improve no matter how much I practise. I've probably spent more time bowling in the nets than anyone in the club, but I've still only bowled 1.4 overs all season in matches and that doesn't look like changing on Saturday, which is our last match. Should I be worried? Or does everyone start out this hopeless?

There are parts of my action that conspire against me, particularly the old round-arm problem where line and length get all mixed up (release too early and it's long down leg-side, too late and it's short down off, all further complicated by having to spin the ball as it leaves my hand), but it's simply impossible for me to bowl with a higher arm. And while I've tried swinging that right foot up and round it doesn't seem to bring much if any improvement. I seem to be trying everything, probably trying to change too many things, but it just doesn't seem to gel. The only part of my action that feels right is the run-up, but it's plain to see that none of the energy put in there actually achieves anything anyway.

I try to comfort myself with the idea that if I practise a lot over the winter I should be in much better shape by the time winter nets starts in February, but I'm not sure I can stand another four months bowling the rubbish I produce at the moment.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Yeah, looking back my first season was laughable and I must have lost the Sunday team many a game going for absolutely shed loads of runs per over bowling the ball down the legside and generally spraying it around all over the shop. Thing is I had an increadibly supportive team that year with the captain being the father of a wrist spinner and one of the key players being a LH Finger spinner. The 2nd year was slightly better as that was my Googly year.

I know this is going to controversial but the evidence provided by my younger son who has just spent 2 years in the wilderness that is Medium Pace bowling, might I suggest that you give up spinning in the short term - maybe for 6 months (Over the winter) and just bowl medium pace or dibbly dobbly straight stuff. The theory is that if you do this and you can land a straight ball on the stumps at differing speeds, using differing lengths at least that establishes that you've got the fundamentals sorted. The point about the straight arm above the head sounds very worrying? I'd say try and bowl as described and see if you can get the arm up above the head, if you can't it might be a time to reflect and see where you're going next?

Oh yeah - younger son. Was a Leg Break bowler who lost it and turned to the dark side and bowled straight for a couple of seasons. He bowled good variation of line, length, speed and flight and took wickets. Conclusion very good basic technique and very accurate. This year he discovered his wrist action again and now he's bowling very good leg breaks. He's just pitched a ball down the leg-side just down which landed 6-9" outside of leg, I put a bat there in case it turned and it turned so much it came across the front of the bat only just missing the bat and the off-stump! Strewth an amazing delivery!

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

He's just pitched a ball down the leg-side just down which landed 6-9" outside of leg, I put a bat there in case it turned and it turned so much it came across the front of the bat only just missing the bat and the off-stump! Strewth an amazing delivery!

He's on his way then by the sounds of that.

I bet/hope you made a big deal about it? Nothing like beating the old man with a big legbreak.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Yeah big time and he seems to be loving the fact that he can do it. A big part of it is that he can do something his bigger brother can't do, so hopefully he'll carry on. It seems to have really enthused him as he willingly now goes out and spends an hour or so bowling. He's Australia (Shane Warne and Steve Smith) and I'm England the hapless england batting line up that's usually about 25 for 6 or 7 wickets before he has a bat, so it's brilliant.

I noticed on Monday (Bank Holiday here in the UK) that my batting was pretty solid during the fun day at their club. Me and the older son Ben batted through two overs together and my technique was pretty good against the seam up bowlers and I can only put this down to the fact that both of them are getting better at bowling and what with me facing them my batting is improving? So it's an all round win win situation.

 

[Spiderlounge]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Yeah, looking back my first season was laughable and I must have lost the Sunday team many a game going for absolutely shed loads of runs per over bowling the ball down the legside and generally spraying it around all over the shop. Thing is I had an increadibly supportive team that year with the captain being the father of a wrist spinner and one of the key players being a LH Finger spinner. The 2nd year was slightly better as that was my Googly year.

I know this is going to controversial but the evidence provided by my younger son who has just spent 2 years in the wilderness that is Medium Pace bowling, might I suggest that you give up spinning in the short term - maybe for 6 months (Over the winter) and just bowl medium pace or dibbly dobbly straight stuff. The theory is that if you do this and you can land a straight ball on the stumps at differing speeds, using differing lengths at least that establishes that you've got the fundamentals sorted. The point about the straight arm above the head sounds very worrying? I'd say try and bowl as described and see if you can get the arm up above the head, if you can't it might be a time to reflect and see where you're going next?

Oh yeah - younger son. Was a Leg Break bowler who lost it and turned to the dark side and bowled straight for a couple of seasons. He bowled good variation of line, length, speed and flight and took wickets. Conclusion very good basic technique and very accurate. This year he discovered his wrist action again and now he's bowling very good leg breaks. He's just pitched a ball down the leg-side just down which landed 6-9" outside of leg, I put a bat there in case it turned and it turned so much it came across the front of the bat only just missing the bat and the off-stump! Strewth an amazing delivery!

Thanks for the response Dave. I'm beginning to thing part of my problem comes from some of the whiplash from my car crash in March coming out of the woodwork, or perhaps that it's been restricting me without my noticing. I'll try some of the things you suggest and over the winter I'll also try to keep up some flexibility and strengthening exercises so I've got more freedom of movement. The insurance company (the other driver's insurance company that is...) is paying for some physio and the woman doing it seems to still be at the "break eggs to make an ommlette" stage meaning my muscles and joints are really aching a lot of the time, but I can feel my range of movement improving quite drastically. I was looking at one of my pre-crash videos and one thing I used to do which I seemed to have lost is bending my torso so that my arm came round near-vertical even though it was still round-arm relative to the shoulder. Losing this is probably why I've been losing accuracy. As you can probably tell I was really frustrated on Tuesday night but I'm feeling a bit better about things now I've had a think about it.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Yeah it sounds like you need to bide your time if you're still in recovery from a whiplash injury. Liz will tell you more about this if you ask her on the Fitness and nutrition pages. But it kind of sounds as though you might be subconciously holding back or tensing up because your aware that you might re-injure yourself or exacerbate the injury if it still hasn't fixed itself?

 

[Spiderlounge]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Yeah it sounds like you need to bide your time if you're still in recovery from a whiplash injury. Liz will tell you more about this if you ask her on the Fitness and nutrition pages. But it kind of sounds as though you might be subconciously holding back or tensing up because your aware that you might re-injure yourself or exacerbate the injury if it still hasn't fixed itself?

I don't think it's anything conscious or unconscious, it's just that the way I've "healed" seems to have left me with several bits of me not quite able to move as freely as they should. I did a lot of stretching to get myself loose before bowling tonight, in particular trying to stretch the muscles between hip and armpit, and bowled much, much better - more accurate and faster. It seems that I've been bending my arm as I bowl to compensate for less bending in my torso and that's what's been throwing me off. As soon as I get the arm straight, and bend my torso over, everything else seems to fall into place and I bowl a much better line.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

I don't think it's anything conscious or unconscious, it's just that the way I've "healed" seems to have left me with several bits of me not quite able to move as freely as they should. I did a lot of stretching to get myself loose before bowling tonight, in particular trying to stretch the muscles between hip and armpit, and bowled much, much better - more accurate and faster. It seems that I've been bending my arm as I bowl to compensate for less bending in my torso and that's what's been throwing me off. As soon as I get the arm straight, and bend my torso over, everything else seems to fall into place and I bowl a much better line.

make sure you only do dynamic stretches prior to activity, and static ones afterwards. you didnt specify what kind of stretches you did, but static ones before exercise are counter productive.

 

[doctortran]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

If you have big leg drive it feels strange pulling your leg through straight forward. So it's partly about feel. If you end up in mid air with your right foot in mid air in front of you it's also a balance problem. So like Warne with a big leg drive you swing your leg around. The feel is better, you are better balanced despite the huge power you put through your legs, and this improves recovery looking for the return catch.

If you have a smaller leg drive your leg might not have enough force to go right around like Warne's action. What is the point of adding extra force to your leg after the bowling has happened -- waste of energy! Hence Rashid follows straight forward. As has been said in the forum -- all about what happens in the action.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

If you have big leg drive it feels strange pulling your leg through straight forward. So it's partly about feel. If you end up in mid air with your right foot in mid air in front of you it's also a balance problem. So like Warne with a big leg drive you swing your leg around. The feel is better, you are better balanced despite the huge power you put through your legs, and this improves recovery looking for the return catch.

If you have a smaller leg drive your leg might not have enough force to go right around like Warne's action. What is the point of adding extra force to your leg after the bowling has happened -- waste of energy! Hence Rashid follows straight forward. As has been said in the forum -- all about what happens in the action.

Is this where the standing start drill that used to be on the internet with Beua Casson doing the demo comes into it's own? It strikes me that if you bowl without a good positive leg-drive, do the standing start drill 'Exploding through the crease' with all the other levers working as well, you'll see and feel the benefit of a good strong drive through the crease?

 

[doctortran]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Is this where the standing start drill that used to be on the internet with Beua Casson doing the demo comes into it's own? It strikes me that if you bowl without a good positive leg-drive, do the standing start drill 'Exploding through the crease' with all the other levers working as well, you'll see and feel the benefit of a good strong drive through the crease?

I never really paid much attention to much of those David Freedman videos. So I couldn't really affirm or dis-affirm any drill. As long as it teaches the bowler fundamentals of leg drive -- early bent knee over the toes, then early weight shift before final forward delivery movement followed by extension of the leg pushing from the ground to maximise stride length, while keeping the heel on the ground as long as possible... then I'm all for it! Lots of information -- so breaking it down.

1) Warne to Strauss (that Delivery!): Bent knee over toes

2) Warne to Foster 93' Ashes (best side-on I could find): Early Weight Shift

3) Full force and therefore extension of the back leg

4) Drive your leg around as a self-accountability indicator for strength of your leg drive.

 

[doctortran]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

If you have big leg drive it feels strange pulling your leg through straight forward. So it's partly about feel. If you end up in mid air with your right foot in mid air in front of you it's also a balance problem. So like Warne with a big leg drive you swing your leg around. The feel is better, you are better balanced despite the huge power you put through your legs, and this improves recovery looking for the return catch.

If you have a smaller leg drive your leg might not have enough force to go right around like Warne's action. What is the point of adding extra force to your leg after the bowling has happened -- waste of energy! Hence Rashid follows straight forward. As has been said in the forum -- all about what happens in the action.

I'm sure I put this in the follow through... body rotation thread??!? oh well my mistake.