Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)
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someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)
That's very technical and a bit of a revelation. I've looked at a couple of videos of my own bowling shot from the side early this season and a year and half ago and there's some issues. It looks as though the width of the step in my case isn't very good and I'm not sure whether I bend the back leg and push through with it as in the Warne images there. I'm bowling pretty well at the moment in practice, so I may get the camera out and record what I'm doing from the side and see how it's looking. Bowling to my kids the last couple of days I've been doing it from a stand start a la' B, Casson and I think if I bowl in the manner he advises it brings some of these points into play and I'm getting the ball to turn a lot. I'm pretty sure the things you've pointed out here, were evident in the Casson/Freedman clip and I think the comments when comparing Casson's step width the John F Cook clip were noted and that it was recommended that a big step was the way to go.
Doctoran, is there any chance you could get a video camera and demo some of this stuff and put it up on youtube as you seem to know what you're on about?
That's very technical and a bit of a revelation. I've looked at a couple of videos of my own bowling shot from the side early this season and a year and half ago and there's some issues. It looks as though the width of the step in my case isn't very good and I'm not sure whether I bend the back leg and push through with it as in the Warne images there. I'm bowling pretty well at the moment in practice, so I may get the camera out and record what I'm doing from the side and see how it's looking. Bowling to my kids the last couple of days I've been doing it from a stand start a la' B, Casson and I think if I bowl in the manner he advises it brings some of these points into play and I'm getting the ball to turn a lot. I'm pretty sure the things you've pointed out here, were evident in the Casson/Freedman clip and I think the comments when comparing Casson's step width the John F Cook clip were noted and that it was recommended that a big step was the way to go.
Doctoran, is there any chance you could get a video camera and demo some of this stuff and put it up on youtube as you seem to know what you're on about?
doctortran
Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)
Being camera shy I probably won't make any appearances in tutorials as you have done with demonstrating the flipper etc. I might be willing to take video footage of bowlers and use video editing software to analyze and highlight particular mechanics. But this would take time and effort, and so I can't promise anything. Let's just say if you're a main contributor to the forum, I'll seriously think about editing video for analysis of your action.
Any time for contributors of such a fantastic spinner's forum!
someblokecalleddave;407567 said:
Being camera shy I probably won't make any appearances in tutorials as you have done with demonstrating the flipper etc. I might be willing to take video footage of bowlers and use video editing software to analyze and highlight particular mechanics. But this would take time and effort, and so I can't promise anything. Let's just say if you're a main contributor to the forum, I'll seriously think about editing video for analysis of your action.
macca;407564 said:
Any time for contributors of such a fantastic spinner's forum!
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)
Hey Dr.tran,
If length of the stride is that important, why are spinners taught to shorten the stride to achieve better accuracy when they're starting out. Isn't pivoting and body rotation more important than the backleg drive?
Also I remember from long ago(very vaguely) that a coach asked me to think of runup for a leg spinner as going up the stairs. I never understood what it meant. Can you elaborate?
doctortran;407577 said:
Hey Dr.tran,
If length of the stride is that important, why are spinners taught to shorten the stride to achieve better accuracy when they're starting out. Isn't pivoting and body rotation more important than the backleg drive?
Also I remember from long ago(very vaguely) that a coach asked me to think of runup for a leg spinner as going up the stairs. I never understood what it meant. Can you elaborate?
doctortran
Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)
Why does this feel like a test? haha.
I could have easily written up a huge paper simply on my own propositions for why spinners are taught what is conventionally taught. I'll just say this -- spin bowlers have to start somewhere.
Spin bowling is simplistically and perhaps ideally a combination of the fast bowling art in tandem with what we frequently discuss in the forums -- of the spin bowling art. You are imparting spin on the ball trying to land it in a small area to deceive the batsman -- while maintaining a feasible power and velocity for the quality of batsman you are bowling at! So a coach teaching a young'un has some choices.
1) Teach fast bowling mechanics then teach spin
2) Teach spin bowling mechanics then teach fast bowling mechanics.
3) Teach both.
No 1 leads to kids who wanted to become spinners join fast bowling ranks. Spin bowling is not easy and even after Shane Warne spinners are still finding it hard to get a game. And... you aren't exactly a spinner if you don't spin it?!? No 3 is complicated -- spin bowling is hard enough to learn without the complications of learning two arts at once.
So from this simplistic model of the rational choice, by elimination, I feel there is a credible argument to teach specialist spin before power and pace mechanics. I therefore consider pivoting and body rotation as compensatory measures for spin bowlers learning the spin craft. It offers easy gains in power allowing you to spin the ball with less chance of spinning it too slowly, while segregating the art of spin bowling further from fast bowling. Spinners gain some power without needing to learn fast bowling mechanics.
(Another way of looking at it: In this way I use the dirty word "segregation" to imply that separation of fast bowling and spin bowling occurs in such a way that it makes it easier to learn, while at the same time making it seem spin bowling and fast bowling have mutually exclusive mechanic components -- a method of keeping spin bowlers as spin bowlers.)
I think it is also important to remember that I only have encouraged power leg drive as an addition to the action aimed at adding that extra mph to take you up the next level. I am definitely not saying leg drive is the first and only important part of spin bowling. Definitely follow the Jim Laker method and learn to spin it -- then control it and power it!
Why would a coach tell you to run up as if imagining you were walking up stairs? No idea! What one person thinks of coaching spin bowling can be very different to the thoughts of another. Ok -- I lied about the no idea thing. My guess would be: imagine powering up the stairs. Do you imagine using your arms to power up the stairs? Do you use your arms in tandem with your legs? This could well be a visualisation technique to help rhythm, to help you think about bowling UP, and moreover getting you to think about using your legs with your bowling arm. Pretty ingenious if all people think about walking up stairs the same way.
shrek;407606 said:
Why does this feel like a test? haha.
I could have easily written up a huge paper simply on my own propositions for why spinners are taught what is conventionally taught. I'll just say this -- spin bowlers have to start somewhere.
Spin bowling is simplistically and perhaps ideally a combination of the fast bowling art in tandem with what we frequently discuss in the forums -- of the spin bowling art. You are imparting spin on the ball trying to land it in a small area to deceive the batsman -- while maintaining a feasible power and velocity for the quality of batsman you are bowling at! So a coach teaching a young'un has some choices.
1) Teach fast bowling mechanics then teach spin
2) Teach spin bowling mechanics then teach fast bowling mechanics.
3) Teach both.
No 1 leads to kids who wanted to become spinners join fast bowling ranks. Spin bowling is not easy and even after Shane Warne spinners are still finding it hard to get a game. And... you aren't exactly a spinner if you don't spin it?!? No 3 is complicated -- spin bowling is hard enough to learn without the complications of learning two arts at once.
So from this simplistic model of the rational choice, by elimination, I feel there is a credible argument to teach specialist spin before power and pace mechanics. I therefore consider pivoting and body rotation as compensatory measures for spin bowlers learning the spin craft. It offers easy gains in power allowing you to spin the ball with less chance of spinning it too slowly, while segregating the art of spin bowling further from fast bowling. Spinners gain some power without needing to learn fast bowling mechanics.
(Another way of looking at it: In this way I use the dirty word "segregation" to imply that separation of fast bowling and spin bowling occurs in such a way that it makes it easier to learn, while at the same time making it seem spin bowling and fast bowling have mutually exclusive mechanic components -- a method of keeping spin bowlers as spin bowlers.)
I think it is also important to remember that I only have encouraged power leg drive as an addition to the action aimed at adding that extra mph to take you up the next level. I am definitely not saying leg drive is the first and only important part of spin bowling. Definitely follow the Jim Laker method and learn to spin it -- then control it and power it!
Why would a coach tell you to run up as if imagining you were walking up stairs? No idea! What one person thinks of coaching spin bowling can be very different to the thoughts of another. Ok -- I lied about the no idea thing. My guess would be: imagine powering up the stairs. Do you imagine using your arms to power up the stairs? Do you use your arms in tandem with your legs? This could well be a visualisation technique to help rhythm, to help you think about bowling UP, and moreover getting you to think about using your legs with your bowling arm. Pretty ingenious if all people think about walking up stairs the same way.
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)
ive been bowling more and more pace recently. i have no intentions of becoming a seamer, it just intrigues me, and i dont really practice it at dedicated practice sessions, i just bowl occasional balls after matches and stuff when people are just messing about in the nets.
the other day i was practicing down the nets because i had a few hours to kill and my spin bowling was all landing in good areas and turning nicely, so i thought why not spend some time with my pace bowling and get some video to see what i look like. i approach it in the same way as i do my leg spin, and analyse my action and try to make improvements. so i bowled about 30 balls.
in literally 50 balls of practice ive gone from low 40's to low 50's, and i reckon i can easily hit 60mph in one more session (im already faster than some of the actual seam bowlers i play with lol). the key thing i have noticed though, which ties in with the "articles" doctortran has written over the past week or so, is that pace bowling isnt really that far different from spin bowling!!
i watch my action on video, and apart from my pace action being very ugly with limbs flailing around (purely because im charging in and not used to controlling myself at higher speed), the core features are the same. bear in mind that im not a proper seamer, compare a 90mph test bowler to Shane Warne and the similarities would be far less, but compare my 50+ mph seam deliveries to my 35mph leg spin deliveries, and the only real difference is a lack of body control, and no spin on the ball! the pace action exhibits a few areas however that im trying to improve in my spin bowling, but currently struggling to do.
so it stands to reason that i can transfer aspects of my technique between the 2 disciplines, and this should help me add extra pace and power to my leg spin bowling. when i tried to bowl faster in the past i inadvertently tried to do it all with my upper body. now ive got my lower body working more, and im one breakthrough away from a massive improvement. i just need to get my hips driving through in my action, which will get me up on my toes as well as keep me more upright and taller, and this is something i do more in my pace action. so im hoping i can transfer it across.
whether the leg drive is the be all and end all im not so sure. certainly it makes sense that something to that effect is of importance in adding power to the action. i think there are more important areas to work on for most club leggies. i also think that driving from the hips (although this is probably a function of driving the back leg) is more important, and most people would simply classify all of this as weight transfer, rather than breaking it down into its individual elements. but just in thinking about driving from the back leg at low speed (e.g. minimal run up) is helping to get my hips forwards, so it certainly has some merit.
ive been bowling more and more pace recently. i have no intentions of becoming a seamer, it just intrigues me, and i dont really practice it at dedicated practice sessions, i just bowl occasional balls after matches and stuff when people are just messing about in the nets.
the other day i was practicing down the nets because i had a few hours to kill and my spin bowling was all landing in good areas and turning nicely, so i thought why not spend some time with my pace bowling and get some video to see what i look like. i approach it in the same way as i do my leg spin, and analyse my action and try to make improvements. so i bowled about 30 balls.
in literally 50 balls of practice ive gone from low 40's to low 50's, and i reckon i can easily hit 60mph in one more session (im already faster than some of the actual seam bowlers i play with lol). the key thing i have noticed though, which ties in with the "articles" doctortran has written over the past week or so, is that pace bowling isnt really that far different from spin bowling!!
i watch my action on video, and apart from my pace action being very ugly with limbs flailing around (purely because im charging in and not used to controlling myself at higher speed), the core features are the same. bear in mind that im not a proper seamer, compare a 90mph test bowler to Shane Warne and the similarities would be far less, but compare my 50+ mph seam deliveries to my 35mph leg spin deliveries, and the only real difference is a lack of body control, and no spin on the ball! the pace action exhibits a few areas however that im trying to improve in my spin bowling, but currently struggling to do.
so it stands to reason that i can transfer aspects of my technique between the 2 disciplines, and this should help me add extra pace and power to my leg spin bowling. when i tried to bowl faster in the past i inadvertently tried to do it all with my upper body. now ive got my lower body working more, and im one breakthrough away from a massive improvement. i just need to get my hips driving through in my action, which will get me up on my toes as well as keep me more upright and taller, and this is something i do more in my pace action. so im hoping i can transfer it across.
whether the leg drive is the be all and end all im not so sure. certainly it makes sense that something to that effect is of importance in adding power to the action. i think there are more important areas to work on for most club leggies. i also think that driving from the hips (although this is probably a function of driving the back leg) is more important, and most people would simply classify all of this as weight transfer, rather than breaking it down into its individual elements. but just in thinking about driving from the back leg at low speed (e.g. minimal run up) is helping to get my hips forwards, so it certainly has some merit.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)
Cheers for the endorsement, I'm sure that those of us who do post on here on a regular basis appreciate the comment and your input, it's good to have a couple of blokes on here that know what they're on about amongst us learners!
doctortran;407577 said:
Cheers for the endorsement, I'm sure that those of us who do post on here on a regular basis appreciate the comment and your input, it's good to have a couple of blokes on here that know what they're on about amongst us learners!
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)
Ive had a rest from bowling for a few days as Ive been bowling nearly everyday for the last month. Ive noticed at night Ive been waking up with pins and needles in my hand a lot lately. Sometimes it takes 3-4 mins to get normal feeling back. Its a bit worrying. Has anyone else had this before. I hope its just from overdoing it a bit and not more serious.
Our club has 7 grades and Ive been put up into second grade. Good news I guess but it means no leg spin this season for me as they want to give me the new ball. Its probably not a bad thing as Im not really good enough yet to get much of a bowl. I'll definately keep bowling leggies though, even at training which annoys our captain!!!
Im heading over to England next year so I'll have two seasons in a row, a bit like the crickters version of the "Endless Summer" So I reckon with another 8months practice under my belt Ill hopefully be ready to start ripping it on turf wickets.
Ive had a rest from bowling for a few days as Ive been bowling nearly everyday for the last month. Ive noticed at night Ive been waking up with pins and needles in my hand a lot lately. Sometimes it takes 3-4 mins to get normal feeling back. Its a bit worrying. Has anyone else had this before. I hope its just from overdoing it a bit and not more serious.
Our club has 7 grades and Ive been put up into second grade. Good news I guess but it means no leg spin this season for me as they want to give me the new ball. Its probably not a bad thing as Im not really good enough yet to get much of a bowl. I'll definately keep bowling leggies though, even at training which annoys our captain!!!
Im heading over to England next year so I'll have two seasons in a row, a bit like the crickters version of the "Endless Summer" So I reckon with another 8months practice under my belt Ill hopefully be ready to start ripping it on turf wickets.
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)
i regularly wake up with a dead arm at night. probably a couple of times a week. i never associated it with my bowling though, but now im worried it could be! i used to have it happen sometimes anyway, but nowhere near as regularly as i do since i started bowling leg spin. i sleep on my arms anyway (and i sleep on my front which doesnt help), but i find that it happens if my shoulder is too twisted back.
i wonder if its a problem. the feeling always comes back after i wave my arm around a bit with my other hand lol. and it never hurts or anything. im always most worried that because i cant feel my arm il lay on it at an awkward angle and snap it or something without realising lol.
chippyben;407702 said:
i regularly wake up with a dead arm at night. probably a couple of times a week. i never associated it with my bowling though, but now im worried it could be! i used to have it happen sometimes anyway, but nowhere near as regularly as i do since i started bowling leg spin. i sleep on my arms anyway (and i sleep on my front which doesnt help), but i find that it happens if my shoulder is too twisted back.
i wonder if its a problem. the feeling always comes back after i wave my arm around a bit with my other hand lol. and it never hurts or anything. im always most worried that because i cant feel my arm il lay on it at an awkward angle and snap it or something without realising lol.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)
Jim, when you first wake up, is it difficult to raise your arms above the shoulder initially? If so you're probably straining your rotator cuff and you need to rest it. Talk to Liz. Damage to it can pretty serious, if you go too far the damage can be so bad that it requires an operation. From what I remember reading when I had this, was that pushing it too far is relatively easy once you've done the initial damage and the 'Dead arms' sensation is an alram bell that you need to notice of.
Jim, when you first wake up, is it difficult to raise your arms above the shoulder initially? If so you're probably straining your rotator cuff and you need to rest it. Talk to Liz. Damage to it can pretty serious, if you go too far the damage can be so bad that it requires an operation. From what I remember reading when I had this, was that pushing it too far is relatively easy once you've done the initial damage and the 'Dead arms' sensation is an alram bell that you need to notice of.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)
Chippy - where will you be staying while you're over here?
Chippy - where will you be staying while you're over here?
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)
i have no issues at all with pain or lack of mobility. i can move my shoulders/arms just as easily in the morning as at any other time of day. so in my case i dont think its related to rotator cuff damage as you describe, but that isnt to say that chippybens problems arent related though.
the other thing is that the arm that goes dead is actually more often my left one, which is my non bowling arm.
someblokecalleddave;407718 said:
i have no issues at all with pain or lack of mobility. i can move my shoulders/arms just as easily in the morning as at any other time of day. so in my case i dont think its related to rotator cuff damage as you describe, but that isnt to say that chippybens problems arent related though.
the other thing is that the arm that goes dead is actually more often my left one, which is my non bowling arm.
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)
I sleep the same as you Jim and go through stages of getting bad pins and needles, always in my bowling hand, not shoulder or anywhere else. I never got it before I started leg spin bowling. I was getting it at the back end of last season when I was bowling a bit. Then it went as I bowled very little over winter and now its back that Ive been bowling a lot. It must be related because I haven't changed the way Im sleeping. Anyhow I'll give it a bit and see if it goes away, if not I'll have to get it checked out.
Im going to train a little less now anyhow and try and concentrate a lot more and get more quality practice as we were talking about before.
Dave Im heading to Yorkshire, "ee by gum" country. I played a couple seasons for a club up in the Yorkshire dales. My Mrs is from there. It was playing there that I got my love for cricket back after leaving the game for 5-6 years. Theres nothing better than village cricket and proper turf wickets!!!
Jim I only just realised your at Basingstoke. I was working in a pub up at Strathfield Turgis near the Duke of Wellingtons house. Do you play up that way. There was even another pub nearby called the cricketers from memory. I wanted to play but they wouldnt give me saturday arvos off.
Jim2109;407727 said:
I sleep the same as you Jim and go through stages of getting bad pins and needles, always in my bowling hand, not shoulder or anywhere else. I never got it before I started leg spin bowling. I was getting it at the back end of last season when I was bowling a bit. Then it went as I bowled very little over winter and now its back that Ive been bowling a lot. It must be related because I haven't changed the way Im sleeping. Anyhow I'll give it a bit and see if it goes away, if not I'll have to get it checked out.
Im going to train a little less now anyhow and try and concentrate a lot more and get more quality practice as we were talking about before.
Dave Im heading to Yorkshire, "ee by gum" country. I played a couple seasons for a club up in the Yorkshire dales. My Mrs is from there. It was playing there that I got my love for cricket back after leaving the game for 5-6 years. Theres nothing better than village cricket and proper turf wickets!!!
Jim I only just realised your at Basingstoke. I was working in a pub up at Strathfield Turgis near the Duke of Wellingtons house. Do you play up that way. There was even another pub nearby called the cricketers from memory. I wanted to play but they wouldnt give me saturday arvos off.
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)
I'm going to forego my cheapskate ways and spend some money joining the gym this week! I've been threatening to do it for years, but I've decided I can't take my cricket to the next level without some serious strength and conditioning work over the winter. I'll be 26 in a couple of weeks, so chances are I'm beyond the possibility of ever advancing beyond club cricket, but if there is any chance at all then I can't afford to waste another season next year.
So I'm going to hit the gym hard all winter, get as much cricket practice in as I can as well (I'm hoping to play indoor league as well), get my general fitness levels where they need to be, and also put a lot of work into strength for my bowling. Then hopefully next season I'll be able to establish myself as a key 1st XI player and take my bowling up a notch in terms of pace, spin and consistency.
I also want to improve my batting a lot, and I need more strength for that as well. And if I'm paying a fortune every month for gym membership I'm more likely to actually go and exercise, otherwise I'll plan to get out and run and stuff, and then as soon as it gets cold I'll just sit on my ar5e lol.
All I need now is a Twitter account and I'll be just like the pros...
I'm going to forego my cheapskate ways and spend some money joining the gym this week! I've been threatening to do it for years, but I've decided I can't take my cricket to the next level without some serious strength and conditioning work over the winter. I'll be 26 in a couple of weeks, so chances are I'm beyond the possibility of ever advancing beyond club cricket, but if there is any chance at all then I can't afford to waste another season next year.
So I'm going to hit the gym hard all winter, get as much cricket practice in as I can as well (I'm hoping to play indoor league as well), get my general fitness levels where they need to be, and also put a lot of work into strength for my bowling. Then hopefully next season I'll be able to establish myself as a key 1st XI player and take my bowling up a notch in terms of pace, spin and consistency.
I also want to improve my batting a lot, and I need more strength for that as well. And if I'm paying a fortune every month for gym membership I'm more likely to actually go and exercise, otherwise I'll plan to get out and run and stuff, and then as soon as it gets cold I'll just sit on my ar5e lol.
All I need now is a Twitter account and I'll be just like the pros...
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)
Well, as neither of you are going to take Dave's advice and ask me... I shall have to butt in.
This could be one of two things:
You are both just sleeping wrong and cutting off sensation to the extremity; or
Possible posterior capsular contracture... as Dave suggested.
I could tell you straight away if I could see you. It really would be a good idea to get the latter eliminated. It will not go away with rest, although it will feel better during rest.
If caught early, it can be treated with stretches and exercises. If not, it could cause a SLAP [superior labrum anterior posterior] tear. In this case, surgery is the only option
.
Jim2109;407703 said:
Well, as neither of you are going to take Dave's advice and ask me... I shall have to butt in
.This could be one of two things:
You are both just sleeping wrong and cutting off sensation to the extremity; or
Possible posterior capsular contracture... as Dave suggested.
I could tell you straight away if I could see you. It really would be a good idea to get the latter eliminated. It will not go away with rest, although it will feel better during rest.
If caught early, it can be treated with stretches and exercises. If not, it could cause a SLAP [superior labrum anterior posterior] tear. In this case, surgery is the only option
.Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)
might be worth a check then. i found that sports therapist locally to me that i mentioned to you before, so i might have to pop down and see him. i was going to see him about my leg, but i managed to resolve the issues there by altering my bowling action.
might be worth a check then. i found that sports therapist locally to me that i mentioned to you before, so i might have to pop down and see him. i was going to see him about my leg, but i managed to resolve the issues there by altering my bowling action.
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)
Would be a good idea, although I suspect it is the former option in your case Jim. However, if you do have a problem, you ought to get it sorted before you get into resistance work. One session on the sports massage couch would see you a new man
.
Would be a good idea, although I suspect it is the former option in your case Jim. However, if you do have a problem, you ought to get it sorted before you get into resistance work. One session on the sports massage couch would see you a new man
.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)
If no-ones seen this yet on youtube and if you're not subscribed to their channel on youtube check this out. YouTube - How to bowl a leg spin I reckon it's pretty good, but I'd like to hear the opinions of the more technically astute amongst us as to whether all of the advice is sound. It's long 15 minutes, and it goes into some detail with regards angles of the arm using graphics and the like. There's a good bit in slow mo showing the ball leaving the fingers that's been shot really well. What do you reckon?
If no-ones seen this yet on youtube and if you're not subscribed to their channel on youtube check this out. YouTube - How to bowl a leg spin I reckon it's pretty good, but I'd like to hear the opinions of the more technically astute amongst us as to whether all of the advice is sound. It's long 15 minutes, and it goes into some detail with regards angles of the arm using graphics and the like. There's a good bit in slow mo showing the ball leaving the fingers that's been shot really well. What do you reckon?