Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Is your Zooter seam up and if so does swing at all. I'd say that a back-spinning flipper with a good up-right seam has it's merits in that it has the potential to swing, not that I'm a fan of the conventional flipper.

the zooter tends to drift like a leg break, the seam tends to point slightly towards the off side, so sometimes it still turns like a leg break as well. its rare that i get the seam dead straight. it is almost always upright though. the zooter is my most consistent delivery, if im struggling to land leg breaks il always go to it as my backup because it has a tendancy to turn big if i dont quite cock my wrist as far as normal.

my flipper tends to point more towards the leg side, so sometimes it will turn in slightly as well. ive seen it swing in both directions, but generally for some reason it tends to swing in towards the right hander, the same as leg break drift would. which defies the physics a little, but at the same time i bowl with old worn out balls, so i may be seeing reverse swing. i pay little notice of the swing factor, it isnt going to help you a great deal in achieving your end goal.

the flippers purpose is to trick the batsman into playing back to what they perceive to be a short delivery. when it then carries through they are trapped, and the fact that it then keeps low means they cant get their bat down to it and are wide open to LBW (since most players step back and across). back spin and less flight are the only required elements here. both the upright seam and scrambled seam variants have their potential merits.

 

[Spiderlounge]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

In theory, because the seam has more drag a flipper with a dead-straight seam should maximise the differential in drag on the two sides of the ball and therefore the lift on the ball should be slightly greater, and Grimmett refers to something like this in "Getting Wickets". Also it should have less drag overall and so will be slightly faster. I'm not sure how great the difference is, probably not much.

 

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Jim - what's your wrist action for the zooter? I'm not sure whether it's the effects of my disability (slack ligaments/slightly weak muscles) or just lack of understanding, but I'm having a job tossing the ball hand to hand with the seam anywhere near vertical with reasonable backspin. Do you use the Philpott "round the loop" theory? The only way I've found is to start with my wrist cocked at the top of the action so that the seam in the "flying saucer" position as Grimmett is supposed to have used for the flipper and then twist my wrist so that, on release, my palm is facing me with the tips of my fingers pointing down the pitch towards the batsman would be if I wasn't sitting at my desk!

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Jim - what's your wrist action for the zooter? I'm not sure whether it's the effects of my disability (slack ligaments/slightly weak muscles) or just lack of understanding, but I'm having a job tossing the ball hand to hand with the seam anywhere near vertical with reasonable backspin. Do you use the Philpott "round the loop" theory? The only way I've found is to start with my wrist cocked at the top of the action so that the seam in the "flying saucer" position as Grimmett is supposed to have used for the flipper and then twist my wrist so that, on release, my palm is facing me with the tips of my fingers pointing down the pitch towards the batsman would be if I wasn't sitting at my desk!

the Zooter is a tough delivery to bowl. i use the around the loop method, but youve got to twist your wrist a long way around. i think its easier to do it at full speed as there is more force involved, so the wrist doesnt have a choice, it just flexes. whereas between your hands youll struggle to twist it enough. youll end up sticking your elbow out to compensate which wont work when bowling properly.

the best way to practice it is to bowl the ball away in front of you (not into your hands), and let it bounce on the floor/desk and aim to spin it back towards yourself. thats the only way you can simulate it.

heres a video of the action, if you watch it in 720p HD and wait for the 1/16th speed slow mo shot then you can see the release quite well...
YouTube - Leg Spin Bowling - Zooter 1 (March 2010)

and another...
YouTube - Wrist Spin Zooter

its basically a karate chop action. 9 times out of 10 the seam wont come out dead straight, but will have small amounts of leg spin on it as well. it doesnt always turn though, but it pretty much always grips and loses pace, as well as sitting up a bit, and then bouncing down quickly. it stays fairly low, but not as low as the flipper (its bowled with plenty of flight though). maybe 1 out of 10 times it will turn as a massive leg break.

 

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

the Zooter is a tough delivery to bowl. i use the around the loop method, but youve got to twist your wrist a long way around. i think its easier to do it at full speed as there is more force involved, so the wrist doesnt have a choice, it just flexes. whereas between your hands youll struggle to twist it enough. youll end up sticking your elbow out to compensate which wont work when bowling properly.

the best way to practice it is to bowl the ball away in front of you (not into your hands), and let it bounce on the floor/desk and aim to spin it back towards yourself. thats the only way you can simulate it.

heres a video of the action, if you watch it in 720p HD and wait for the 1/16th speed slow mo shot then you can see the release quite well...
YouTube - Leg Spin Bowling - Zooter 1 (March 2010)

and another...
YouTube - Wrist Spin Zooter

its basically a karate chop action. 9 times out of 10 the seam wont come out dead straight, but will have small amounts of leg spin on it as well. it doesnt always turn though, but it pretty much always grips and loses pace, as well as sitting up a bit, and then bouncing down quickly. it stays fairly low, but not as low as the flipper (its bowled with plenty of flight though). maybe 1 out of 10 times it will turn as a massive leg break.

Thanks Jim. I did watch those vids but found it hard to see your exact action. I think the way I've found that the action I described creates a karate chop upwards rather than outswards/downwards if that makes any sense. I can well imagine that it needs to be bowled at pace to work properly, though.

EDIT: Watching again, it looks as if you're doing much the same as I'd concluded I would need to do.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Jim - what's your wrist action for the zooter? I'm not sure whether it's the effects of my disability (slack ligaments/slightly weak muscles) or just lack of understanding, but I'm having a job tossing the ball hand to hand with the seam anywhere near vertical with reasonable backspin. Do you use the Philpott "round the loop" theory? The only way I've found is to start with my wrist cocked at the top of the action so that the seam in the "flying saucer" position as Grimmett is supposed to have used for the flipper and then twist my wrist so that, on release, my palm is facing me with the tips of my fingers pointing down the pitch towards the batsman would be if I wasn't sitting at my desk!

Now there's a thought the Flipper bowled Flying saucer style, I might try that, but it'll need the Grimmett-esque round arm I reckon? Worth a look at thhough and maybe it'll be Flipper variation No.6!!!

 

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Now there's a thought the Flipper bowled Flying saucer style, I might try that, but it'll need the Grimmett-esque round arm I reckon? Worth a look at thhough and maybe it'll be Flipper variation No.6!!!

Well, that's what Benaud claims the flipper is anyway! If you watch his MCC Masterclass video on Youtube, he describes the flipper as being bowled flying saucer-style, under the wrist, with the normal stock grip eek but with more thumb invovement and a twist rather than flick of the wrist.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Well, that's what Benaud claims the flipper is anyway! If you watch his MCC Masterclass video on Youtube, he describes the flipper as being bowled flying saucer-style, under the wrist, with the normal stock grip eek but with more thumb invovement and a twist rather than flick of the wrist.

Then if you watch the Danish Kaneria video on youtube his is different again.

 

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Then if you watch the Danish Kaneria video on youtube his is different again.

Well, I don't put much faith in Kaneria.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Just posted this up in a you tube communication with a bloke called sparksy who ripped the new Warne clip in the videos resources link thread (Have a look). He's got dragging down problems and I've said -

Cheers Sparksy - just linked it to a few places and no doubt it'll go big on the youtube hits over the coming weeks and months.

With regards your dragging it down, I find that it's the fact that I'm not relaxed. When I go into practice situations I sometimes go in with a real sense of determination which errs on the side of frustration that generally things are not going right. I'll work like that for 1/2 and hour or more and it just gets worse and makes the tension worse and drag downs are a feature.

Recently I've found that if I stand at the crease bring the arm over nice and loose and just flick the ball up into the air above my head, the ball comes off the fingers 100% with the ball rotating perfectly and I can see what's happening and see and feel what I need to do. This also helps with that kind of loose slingy feeling and you kind of get what Warne says when he says 'Spin the ball up'. Try it it might work for you, but drag downs are usually associated with frustration and trying to hard and being all tensed up.

Dave

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Now there's a thought the Flipper bowled Flying saucer style, I might try that, but it'll need the Grimmett-esque round arm I reckon? Worth a look at thhough and maybe it'll be Flipper variation No.6!!!

i put a few posts up about this last year. at one point i had it semi-nailed and could get the seam out horizontally quite consistently. its a weird delivery that keeps low and doesnt lose much pace off the pitch, so it gives the impression of really zipping through quickly. i think at the time i compared it to the action of Malinga (Sri Lankan fast bowler) who is so slingy that he delivers the ball mostly in this way, and seems to beat most batsmen for pace even though the ball isnt exceptionally fast out of the hand. i think for the same reasons i found, that the ball just skids through off the pitch without losing too much pace.

just had a look at your blogs Dave, to see if there was anything new. and noticed you saying about your paddock wicket. the league i play in has a really good groundwork section on its website, detailing what you should be doing throughout the year, might be worth a read...

Hampshire Cricket League - Homepage

 

[Shahbaz]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

So, the season'll be starting soon, and I guess I may as well come back here. I was watching some of Warne's wickets recently, and it's notable that in his earlier days (1994, etc) he brought his right arm down quite straight, or even to the right of his body, after delivery, while in 2005 he brought it down to the left, as is orthodox. Any idea of why that may be? This has probably been discussed before, but I don't recall it.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Well, that's what Benaud claims the flipper is anyway! If you watch his MCC Masterclass video on Youtube, he describes the flipper as being bowled flying saucer-style, under the wrist, with the normal stock grip eek but with more thumb invovement and a twist rather than flick of the wrist.

Yeah i wondered what he was on about in his flipper demo in that clip. It looked like as you described it.

Was he being deliberately deceptive? It was early 90,s. Did he ever bowl the proper flipper anyway? He learnt it second hand from Dooland and not from Grimmett himself.

He gives a good lesson on the wrongun in that mcc class. Just come in and do everything as you would the legbreak and at the end force the back of your hand to really face the ground and everything should fall into place to produce offspin.

Benaud was always secretive about his flipper.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

i put a few posts up about this last year. at one point i had it semi-nailed and could get the seam out horizontally quite consistently. its a weird delivery that keeps low and doesnt lose much pace off the pitch, so it gives the impression of really zipping through quickly. i think at the time i compared it to the action of Malinga (Sri Lankan fast bowler) who is so slingy that he delivers the ball mostly in this way, and seems to beat most batsmen for pace even though the ball isnt exceptionally fast out of the hand. i think for the same reasons i found, that the ball just skids through off the pitch without losing too much pace.

just had a look at your blogs Dave, to see if there was anything new. and noticed you saying about your paddock wicket. the league i play in has a really good groundwork section on its website, detailing what you should be doing throughout the year, might be worth a read...

Hampshire Cricket League - Homepage

Nice one Jim, cheers

 

[gundalf7]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

hi all hope everyone is having a good season, i'm having a fairly decent season, passed 50 wickets for the season last weekend. Still suffering from inconsistency problems regards my action which seem like it can still fall apart overnight occasionally. Looking towards the end of the season now and improvements in the action really looking to add at least a couple of mph for next year.

Here is a couple of vids of highlights our opposition put together on their website after a game a couple of weeks ago. I'm the leggie bowling in the vids, ended with 4-31 from 8 in this game.

Bantock Cricket Club - Videos Photos View

Bantock Cricket Club - Videos Photos View

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

i played my last league game for the season yesterday, weve got one left next week but im not available. then there are 2 or 3 friendlies left, including one today. so the season is very nearly over. then its indoor season which im hoping to play in for the first time.

yesterday was a mixed game for me, but my most solid performance yet. we had 3 seamers, all of whom are generally pretty good, and an offie who was also stand-in captain. we play 42 over matches, but each bowler is limited to 10, and our 5th bowler was playing, but has a back injury and so ruled himself out of bowling.

so the seamers opened, the younger one went for quite a lot of runs, struggled to find his line and length, and got taken off after 6 overs. at which point the captain brought himself on and got creamed. at this point i was thinking that it was a pretty selfish decision and that i was more worthy of the spin overs, but after that he reigned it in and was very tight, bowling quite a few maidens. given how comfortably we won, it was hard to disagree with any of his decisions, although i felt like i was worth more than the 2 overs i eventually got based on performance.

the seamers all got 10 overs each, as did the captain with his off spin, which left 2 overs to fill in, a task that fell to me. first over, first ball was ok and a dot. 2nd ball turned big and had the batsman a bit worried. through the first over i went for a couple of 2's where i strayed a little full on the legside and got turned around the corner, but i beat the outside edge twice, and found it once with extra bounce and it went fine past the keeper who missed it, but too fine for slip. it was a very good over, for a loosener, and looked very likely to get a wicket. so i wasnt too pleased that i didnt get another over. i had to wait a few overs until i got my 2nd, at which point i realised i was literally getting 2 overs to fill in, regardless of performance.

the 2nd over was even better than the first, apart from one full toss on the leg side that went for a sloppy 4 past a lazy fine leg fielder who couldnt be bothered to dive. 2 singles, and 3 balls that beat the outside edge, one of them with big turn.

the young seamer got his final 4 overs from my end, and got creamed for what must have been at least 30 runs at the end. personally i think i should have got those 4 overs in the middle, and then one of the better bowlers saved for the final 4 overs when the opposition were always likely to attack. id have also probably taken wickets so they would have been into the tail anyway.

2-0-10-0 and my most solid bowling performance yet, even if the figures dont tell the story.

i took a good catch at mid-on, made no mistakes in the field (although i didnt really have anything to do for most of the day, i think they scored all of their runs through square leg and fine leg because of poor line discipline from the seamers!).

i didnt get a bat, we restricted their runs to 173 off 42 overs (they scored about 50 in the last 5 though) and chased it down in about 32 overs for 3 wickets. the 4th wicket partnership put on about 120 runs.

ive got a friendly today, so hopefully il get more overs and il bowl like i did yesterday. i had a predominantly off stump line yesterday, and it seemed to cause more problems for the bat than my usual leg stump line. the leg stump line only really threatens if the ball turns consistently big. i think that im maybe not consistent enough to utilise it yet, and the off stump line restricts runs a lot better. and when it does turn batsman struggle to play it because its away from their body. whereas the leg stump line turns in at them so its more instinctive. i think different types of batsmen have different weaknesses, but im going to try and bowl more on off and middle stump to see how that works out.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

7-0-43-1 today. another good bowling performance, and another day where the figures do the bowling no justice at all.

first over wasnt amazing, just getting loose, but turning the ball reasonably. they were just picking singles and 2's. there were 2 young batsmen at the crease, but they were both very well set, and one was approaching 50 runs. 2nd over was a painful one. first or second ball the batsman smashed it back at me, so i stuck my hand out, palmed it and dropped it. it was seriously travelling, and a bruise came up instantly. it hurt to move my hand, and its my bowling hand as well. it hurts even more now, but that didnt help things at all!!

next ball, batsman smashes another one at me at ankle height, and idiot that i am try to stop it with my foot, and take a shot straight to the ankle. if the hand hurt, then this hurt a lot more!! i could barely walk on it. so then im hobbling in to bowl lol. they get another single, then the other batsman smashes one back at me again, along the ground, and i stop it with my foot. except it hits the bone just behind the big toe, and that is all swollen up. i was in agony, i just couldnt believe my luck.

3rd over first ball, the lower scoring batsman (who inflicted 2 of the injuries) gets cocky and comes down the pitch at me. i land a leg break on leg stump that rips an absolute mile past his outside edge for a quality stumping. he shouldnt have come down the pitch at me really, but even so it was a nice wicket.

my hand stiffened up so i had a few issues with the ball getting stuck in my fingers. but mostly bowled ok from then on. i bowled a rank full toss at the new bat and he slogged it to deep backward square who dropped a dolly. then in the same over i bowled a ball well down the leg side to the set batsman that turned in big and the keeper missed a big stumping. he was on about 55 runs at this point, he ended up scoring a ton!

then in my last over i got dropped again at deep mid-off. he had to run for the catch so it wasnt super easy, but he had it in his hands and spilled it.

a frustrating and painful afternoon, on another day i might have had a 5-for. we got comfortably thrashed with the bat, all out for 104 chasing 262 or something. i got a 2 ball duck to a left arm spinner, clean bowled because i couldnt find my off stump with him bowling across me. i regularly faced a slow left armer at my old club in the nets, and he would clean bowled me at least 5 times every session, i just really struggle against it for whatever reason. its probably an issue with my guard or something, i just dont know where my off stump is and i dont defend in the right places.

 

[chippyben]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

I had a bowl down the nets tonight and bowled out of my skin. I have just been trying to think about rhythm and I think I have made real progress. I was using doctortrans idea of having markers in my run up i.e bringing up my leg at the same time as my arms and it worked a treat. I had blokes in all sorts of trouble at training on Sunday too once I got going. The hardest thing I find is keeping loose when Im at training trying to impress. I find I tense up and bowl rubbish but Im getting better.
Just on a side note Macca Ive got a print of lancs of the Dambusters (617) Squadron signed by some of the Aussie pilots and crew on the raids. Interesting stuff.

 

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Yeah i wondered what he was on about in his flipper demo in that clip. It looked like as you described it.

Was he being deliberately deceptive? It was early 90,s. Did he ever bowl the proper flipper anyway? He learnt it second hand from Dooland and not from Grimmett himself.

He gives a good lesson on the wrongun in that mcc class. Just come in and do everything as you would the legbreak and at the end force the back of your hand to really face the ground and everything should fall into place to produce offspin.

Benaud was always secretive about his flipper.

I suspect that he was being furtive. With his high bowling arm, the flying saucer delivery would have been near-impossible to bowl. Photos of him in his pomp show him delivering a four-finger conventional flipperwith the vertical seam. That said, it's probable that, as Grimmett bowled a low arm action flipper with the seam horizontal (according to Philpott), Benaud may well have been taught the flying saucer version by Dooland who learned it from Grimmett.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

hi all hope everyone is having a good season, i'm having a fairly decent season, passed 50 wickets for the season last weekend. Still suffering from inconsistency problems regards my action which seem like it can still fall apart overnight occasionally. Looking towards the end of the season now and improvements in the action really looking to add at least a couple of mph for next year.

Here is a couple of vids of highlights our opposition put together on their website after a game a couple of weeks ago. I'm the leggie bowling in the vids, ended with 4-31 from 8 in this game.

Bantock Cricket Club - Videos Photos View

Bantock Cricket Club - Videos Photos View

50 wickets eh. You've still got it gundalf. You look like you have slowed down a bit through the air since last time i checked your vids last season?

I like how you aren't afraid to give the ball some air on those clips

Have you got more runs than wickets this year?