Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

i think the reason around the wicket works better to lefties is to do with their stance.

my opinion is that a batsman has a lot more control with a closed stance, the bat is well protected as are the stumps, so edges are harder to find and youve got minimal chance of hitting the stumps unless you do something special. and LBW is always tough for a leg spinner, even with the variations (umpires seem to assume everything is turning, even if its dead straight).

so to a right hander, you bowl a line on leg stump, turning across to outside of off. their stance is closed, opens up to the pitch of the ball, and then they are all at sea as the ball comes back across. hence its easy to find the edge or draw a poor shot. bowl around the wicket to a right hander and you open them up even more, but they dont have to change stance so much at the pitch of the ball unless you turn it huge and pitch it well outside leg. and your natural line takes the ball across their body, which means the chances of you hitting the stumps are small, and youll never get LBW if youre pitching the ball outside of leg (the rulebook says so).

left handers on the other hand - if you bowl over the wicket then their stance is slightly open, but they close off to the pitch of the ball. the ball turns back in, but they are perfectly positioned to deal with it when it does. and thus youve got to do something special to upset them, such as big turn, or drift and bounce, etc. Warnes "ball of the millenium" is a good example. bowl around the wicket though and they close off to start with, which for a right hander would help them, but when the ball is pitching outside of their off stump this gives the bowler more control. if the ball goes straight, theyve got to play it. if the ball turns in, theyve got to play it. in other words, they have to play every delivery, regardless of what it does, because provided you have shown them some turn early on, they are going to expect it to happen again at some point. from over the wicket the ball is still pitching outside their off stump, but is naturally angled across their body, so its going to miss the stumps unless it turns well, and they are positioned to protect their stumps. bowl at their legs at your peril because lefties are immense off the pads (the result of facing right handed pace bowlers all their lives, who as kids were told to always aim at the stumps!!). youve got to get it pitched up outside off stump and turn it as much as you can IMO, unless you can turn it both ways, in which case go for confusion!

thats my thoughts on it anyway. i feel a lot more comfortable bowling at lefties from around the wicket, but its also a lot more expensive against aggressive batsmen. against timid defensive batsmen it causes problems, but if they want to hit you its much easier from around the wicket than over it because you reduce your angles.

p.s. warne went for more centuries against righties, but most batsmen are right handed. going for 1/3 of them off lefties says to me that he struggled to control his economy against left handers. which is pretty much my thoughts - lefties are hard to stop scoring runs off of leg spin bowling, but you can play more games and get more natural variation against them just by varying line, length, and turn, plus position on the crease. because they pretty much have to play at every ball!

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I agree with jims' analysis about lefthanders, that makes sense . My kids' team got belted by a little lefthander this morning
School cricket has gone good this morning for my young bloke. H e got the first wicket of the day in his first over. H e cleaned bowled the opener with a topspinner. We had a shower overnight and it has taken some bounce out of the wicket. So far 3 overs 1 for 9. His first ball drifted way down legside and I thought would be a wide but it spun as far back as any ball I reckon I have seen him bowl and spun past off stump.

They are at lunch now , he might get another over or two today. He went good with the bat as well. I better head back.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Yeah It makes sense I reckon, though I've got to admit I'm a bit baffled by some of the terminology 'Closed Stance' for instance.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

4 overs 1/10 were his final figures. His first three balls spun big and beat the bat, ball 4 was the topspinner and clean bowled their opening batsman who looked a good player of pace but not spin. The next kid was a lefthander and he hit the last two balls of the first over for two boundaries. They only bowl an over a time around the clock so he didn't have to bowl to him again, but this kid absolutely smashed our bowling all over the park, found out he is an u/13 rep player.

The captain of my sons school team is an u/12 rep player and was selected without even trialing. He is a sensational player and in a different league then most kids around. His batting today was full of every shot, all around the wicket, played with beautiful technique and class. He is also a brilliant keeper and one of the best fast bowlers in his comp! The most pleasing thing about the whole day was when the captain complimented my sons bowling as the best bowling of the day, apart from the two 4,s by the left hander every ball was spun up and mostly on the stumps and anything down legside spun back big today. No topspinners down legside, which has been one of his goals since last season.

Great breeze to bowl into helped, I was in a good position to see and the ball was drifting big time, but also jerking and wobbling at the top of its flight, that must be hard for batsman that are taught to watch the ball closely ! He was getting more sidespin than usual and he was really cocking his wrist and flicking today, when i see that i know he will turn the ball a lot. At the start of play the pitch was slightly dampish and skiddy but as the sun dried it out it started to bounce especially for the legspinner.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Yeah It makes sense I reckon, though I've got to admit I'm a bit baffled by some of the terminology 'Closed Stance' for instance.

Grimmett explains closed and open stance really well. I will type it here tonight it doesn't go for long. All to do with the orbs of the eye, the blind spot and the two eyed stance.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Yeah It makes sense I reckon, though I've got to admit I'm a bit baffled by some of the terminology 'Closed Stance' for instance.

imagine a batsman stood perfectly side on, the toes on both feet perfectly inline with middle stump, shoulders perfectly square and lined up back at the bowler. a "normal" stance would be slightly open, so the shoulders would be pointing somewhere between the bowler and mid-on, but more to the bowler.

an open stance is where the batsman opens up his body, e.g. turns his shoulders round to the leg-side and gets more face-on to the bowler.

a closed stance is where the batsman gets his front foot across to the off side and "closes off" his body to the bowler.

the consequence of an open stance is that whatever you do, youre going to be playing across the line of the ball relative to your body. it opens up the on-side, which against a leg spinner would also give you the best chance of hitting the ball for runs. an open stance is almost always either an act of a aggression, or an act of panic. either the batsman intends to hit across the line of the ball, or he is forced to unwillingly. more often than not against good leg spin its the latter.

the consequence of a closed stance is that the front pad is very defensive, it covers the stumps and it tucks the bat in behind. its easy to move from a closed stance to a normal stance to open up aggressive shots, but its harder to do the opposite. so the closed stance allows the batsman to be very defensive with minimal risks, aside from LBW, which against a leg spinner is unlikely. for a left hander it leaves the batsman vulnerable if the ball turns big from outside off stump. for a right hander it leaves the batsman vulnerable to drift because thats always going to open him up and his feet wont be positioned for it.

watch cautious test match openers, e.g. Andrew Strauss, and youll see they play with a very closed stance. watch an aggressive T20 batsman and they play with a very open stance, e.g. Kevin Pietersen. typically speaking, there are always exceptions. ignore their first feet positions, watch their feet and shoulders AFTER their trigger movements, just as the ball takes flight from the bowlers hand.

some examples...

first up, Andrew Strauss facing Shane Warne in the 2005 Ashes, Warnes "ball of the millenium". Strauss starts out with a fairly open stance, but as the ball floats towards the off side he closes off, which is the natural stance against a ball outside off stump when bowled from around the wicket. bowled from over the wicket he wouldnt have closed off. the ball pitches well outside off stump, because it turns back in hes forced to play across the line but doesnt want to, he completely misjudges it because it turns so much and he gets bowled behind his legs. YouTube - ball of the millenium watch from 12 seconds onwards.

then this video YouTube - Best 8 Balls Ever Of Shane Warne shows Warne describing 8 of his favourite wickets.

first up Mike Gatting, right handed, starts with a closed defensive stance but stood well to the leg side (i guess to counter Warne bowling a line around leg stump). he tries to close off, but the ball drifts outside leg and forces him to change to an open stance, its incredibly difficult to play a defensive shot when youre open because there are massive gaps everywhere for the ball to sneak through and youve got no protection, so if you dont get bat on ball youre probably out. and he gets bowled.

2nd up, left handed Chanderpaul, Warne around the wicket from well wide. pitches it outside his off stump, batsman is closed up, it turns back big and hes defenceless.

then skip forward to 5:35, and youve got a right hander from around the wicket. in order to get the batsman to open his stance though the ball had to be pitched well outside leg, with tons of turn.

5:46 sees Herschal Gibbs beaten by drift, he opens up and gets bowled.

then you watch someone like Kevin Pietersen play Warne, and he uses his feet instead of his shoulders to do the work. he doesnt have to change his stance because his feet get him into the right position in the first place. the exploitation of the batsmans stance is most effective against players with static feet, which is just about everyone at club level, pretty much everyone in any form of the game apart from a handful of excellent international players! Michael Clarke is my favourite batsman to watch, purely for his footwork. hes an absolute master at it, and subsequently one of the best players of spin in world cricket.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Gotcha - cheers for that, it's kind of what I thought, but did needed clarification, I'm going to go off now and watch my Ashes DVD's from the summer and do some stance watching. Cheers!

I linked to your Slo Mo vids on youtube yesterday from my legspin blog so you might get increased traffic on there as well as a load of abuse.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

lol, abuse seems to be part of the territory for youtube videos. some guy told me that my flipper doesnt turn or bounce at all, and that his turn big and bounce high. i tried explaining but i think its a lost cause.

aside from that, the rest of the comments are mostly yours, and a few complimentary ones from others. the comments are fairly meaningless though, i need to take a ton of wickets next summer, simple as that!! all the internet praise in the world is good for my ego, and not a lot else lol

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Yeah my first full season was very traumatic shed loads of wides going for loads of runs complete nghtmare - the Yips was the worst aspect, I'd go out there with good intentions bowl a wide and then go to pieces, but I reckon you might be okay, as long as you keep it simple and use your leg break 95% of the time you might do okay in your first season. Have you got a team in mind that you might join or are you already sorted?

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Yeah my first full season was very traumatic shed loads of wides going for loads of runs complete nghtmare - the Yips was the worst aspect, I'd go out there with good intentions bowl a wide and then go to pieces, but I reckon you might be okay, as long as you keep it simple and use your leg break 95% of the time you might do okay in your first season. Have you got a team in mind that you might join or are you already sorted?

is that aimed at me?

i played a handful of games for a club already this season just gone, but never really found any rhythm. if i could recreate what i do on a good day in the nets out on the wicket then theres no reason why i shouldnt take plenty of wickets. my variations should be at a point that i can use them more consistently next season as well, i always prefer the legbreak because its what im best at, but i think a few variations can give you control over a batsman through fear.

im not sure what il do for next season yet. i may continue with the club im already playing for, theyve got excellent facilities, but at the same time theres nothing to stop me from practicing at their nets whether i play for them or not. il see how it goes, if i get a fair crack of the whip and get to bowl a good amount of overs, and get promoted through the teams based on good performances (assuming i produce any) then il stay there. but i dont want to play sunday 2nd XI friendlies for a full season, im targetting 2nd XI league cricket next season at the very minimum. my biggest pet hate with amateur sports is when teams are picked at the bar and not on the training ground, e.g. the captain picks his mates, and not the best players. ive seen that a couple of times at my club but the league captains all seem fairly competitive and look to pick the best team to win, the match. ive not played well enough in matches to justify my place yet though, so i need to make sure im taking wickets in matches right from the start next season. and hopefully in pre-season indoor nets i can cause a few of the first team batsmen problems and build a reputation. this year i started too late in the season and the midweek net practices were dead, most weeks i was the only person there, generally the only others there were youth players who all played in the same sunday friendly team as me anyway.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Oh yeah - I'd forgotten sorry! Oh - you're sorted then, as you say if you make a good start you should get selected on Merit, I'd imagine that they'll have pre-season nets and they'll get busier and busier as the start of the season approaches. That way you might even be able to cement a place in one your league teams straight from the start?

What's your batting like - you've probably told us before but I can't recall you saying how well or badly you bat?

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

My kid had a tough day yesterday. He got taken to pieces for the first time in his bowling career. He came up against a rep player we have heard a lot about but so far he is the only young player who danced yards down the pitch and drove everything he was served up.
I have been telling him he is going to take a few hidings as a legspinner and you have to learn. He needed to bowl flatter, faster and shorter to this kid but he kept looping it up too much. I will post his figures when i download them later but they are not pretty.
The only excuse he had was he hurt his first finger bad before he bowled. It is badly bruised. He came on when the batsmen were well set but i knew he has been giving the ball too much air to work against the really good players. I knew we were in trouble when i saw their batsmen practising before the game, they had two good legspinners in their side and i noticed then how good the footwork was. This one kid in particular, who caused all the damge, was going 4 yards down the track and never missed once.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

My kid had a tough day yesterday. He got taken to pieces for the first time in his bowling career. He came up against a rep player we have heard a lot about but so far he is the only young player who danced yards down the pitch and drove everything he was served up.
I have been telling him he is going to take a few hidings as a legspinner and you have to learn. He needed to bowl flatter, faster and shorter to this kid but he kept looping it up too much. I will post his figures when i download them later but they are not pretty.
The only excuse he had was he hurt his first finger bad before he bowled. It is badly bruised. He came on when the batsmen were well set but i knew he has been giving the ball too much air to work against the really good players. I knew we were in trouble when i saw their batsmen practising before the game, they had two good legspinners in their side and i noticed then how good the footwork was. This one kid in particular, who caused all the damge, was going 4 yards down the track and never missed once.

do you have any opinions on a remedy for batsman with very good footwork? in the nets ive faced a couple of guys with awesome feet, but they never do it in matches, only in the nets. i found the slider absolutely deadly. if your kid has a slider then get him to try it out.

they judge it as a normal delivery, come down a few paces and the ball doesnt dip, so they end up facing a yorker, but the slider slows up so much off the pitch as well, it just seems to cause massive misjudgement issues. the flipper didnt have the same effect, maybe it looks different in flight, it just didnt create the illusion the same.

it doesnt even need to be a back spinning slider, all of my versions worked the same. in the middle of plenty of stock leg breaks (e.g. overspun).

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

do you have any opinions on a remedy for batsman with very good footwork? in the nets ive faced a couple of guys with awesome feet, but they never do it in matches, only in the nets. i found the slider absolutely deadly. if your kid has a slider then get him to try it out.

they judge it as a normal delivery, come down a few paces and the ball doesnt dip, so they end up facing a yorker, but the slider slows up so much off the pitch as well, it just seems to cause massive misjudgement issues. the flipper didnt have the same effect, maybe it looks different in flight, it just didnt create the illusion the same.

it doesnt even need to be a back spinning slider, all of my versions worked the same. in the middle of plenty of stock leg breaks (e.g. overspun).

i was hoping he would have bowled a slider on saturday. Sliders seem to work better than the flipper when they are trying to get on the front foot whereas the flipper seems to work better if you can get em on the back foot do you think?

There are not many batsmen that can dance yards down the wicket properly anyway and far fewer than there once were. They have to be fast, courageous and move to the pitch not just straight down the wicket. A lot of blokes premeditate of course and will start moving before you release the ball but they rarely last long. This kid who batted so well on saturday was a pint sized Ponting and he is the best front foot player by far my son has bowled to, lots try to get down the track but not many suceed

If you do come up against a really good front foot player the captain may take you out of the attack or want you to keep trying to get him to drive but pitch wider and shorter, but not be obvious. Maybe he might go defensive, and put an extra fieldsman on the offside and get you to bowl wide of off stump and dry up the scoring that way.

The great legspinners were all faster through the air than your average slow bowler and could force batsmen on the back foot by varying pace and flight. That is probably the key to handling great front foot players.

 

[water_boy]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I have recently been having the problem of overpitching a lot of deliveries and was trying a method where I really try and load up on the back foot in the delivery stride when I am getting my front-arm up. Then pushing up and onto my front leg and I am still overpitching a little bit but I seem to be bowling with more spin and more pace. Do you guys think I should keep practicing this way and make it a permantent fixture in my bowling? and also, when over-pitching regularly should I just try to release the ball later?

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I have recently been having the problem of overpitching a lot of deliveries and was trying a method where I really try and load up on the back foot in the delivery stride when I am getting my front-arm up. Then pushing up and onto my front leg and I am still overpitching a little bit but I seem to be bowling with more spin and more pace. Do you guys think I should keep practicing this way and make it a permantent fixture in my bowling? and also, when over-pitching regularly should I just try to release the ball later?

if youre getting more spin and pace then keep the new weight transfer method, regardless of where youre pitching.

in terms of length, its hard to make suggestions without seeing your action. what is your flight like? if its loopy then maybe try and get it flatter, so essentially releasing the ball later, but within reason. if every ball goes long then you can probably deliver from further back in the crease temporarily if youre currently playing matches and need a quick fix. long term that is disadvantageous though.

also try playing with hard overspin, see if you cant get the ball to dip shorter whilst retaining the pace and flight, thats the ideal scenario. i found that getting my weight further forwards helped with my flight when i was looping it too much (not for my stock leg break, but for one of my variations). it meant i was essentially falling forwards at the point of release (but still had my balance) and so my arm was further forward and the ball would release on a flatter trajectory, with more pace, but less length. youve got to find a balance somewhere though because you dont want to sacrifice flight and pace to sort out your length, you want to keep them all!

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

weather forecast for tomorrow afternoon looks dry (if a little cold) and i should have a couple of hours free to finally get some practice in. the best part is, 40mph winds forecast blowing in from 2nd slip!!!!! thats going to be awesome fun. effortless drift and dip.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Yeah I was looking for the same chance, had a knock about with my kids for an hour and half that went okay although they're still swinging at the ball rather than attempting to play proper strokes. I may still yet go out and have a bowl under floodlights somewhere, I've got to bowl for at least an hour this week otherwise I'll start to lose it.

Macca, how did your boy cope with getting smashed so badly - he take it alright?

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Macca, how did your boy cope with getting smashed so badly - he take it alright?

He didn't seem to think he went too bad! He behaved normally in his spell and after the game the kids don't seem to dwell on the game at all
After the game the coach told me he bowled well again but i told coach it was rubbish. He has been smashed before but usually it only went on for an over or so because when he was younger they only bowl 2 or 3 overs but now he has worked hard and earnt the right to a few extra overs he gets longer spells.

Now when i look at his figures they are the most economical of all the bowlers used so i suppose that is what the coach meant. It didn't look too economic but the opposition scored over 260 runs in 30 overs. His figures were 5 overs 0/36. So he went from season figures of 10 overs 3/38 to 15 overs 3/74. Tad under 5 an over.

We will do a bit of thinking and planning the next few days. The one good thing is there is only one kid in the comp who can use his feet like this kid on saturday. He is in the rep team and is actually playing in a higher age group, like most of the rep kids do. A few kids try to dance down the track but none of them have the class of this kid. Even when my son pitched relatively short this kid was there in a flash and driving him on the half-volley, I was applauding and gasping at his strokeplay along with everbody else

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

when over-pitching regularly should I just try to release the ball later?

it is easier said than done. It sounds simple but is hard to do. It will make you faster too. When you release too early your arm "beats" the ball, but this can be a useful way to bowl a slow ball.