Wrist Spin Bowling

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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Thank you EOW, what i meant by throwing is not chucking as in elbow straightening, but as in PROPELLING FORWARD ie spinning it towards you whole propelling forward, that is the difficult part i find.

The small leg spinner having the seam pointing to slips as in \\ as compared to the big spinner whose seam points = ( seam perpendicular to the pitch with seam pointing to point on one side and square leg on the other side, like warne's ball to gatting on You Tube). That is the best I can explain it. As i said under arm I manage to bowl it and it turns nearly square, but over arm no luck. By the way when I try this I try them on a concrete tennis court.

Also on a concrete pitch with matting which is the best length in metres from the crease do you pich the leg spinner ( please not where the batsman does not know whether to play back or forwards ).

Also where do you usually bowl eg middle. or offstump.

Last one is anyone aware of any coaching videos besides the warne, jenner, wattacoach. Thank you
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Ah, I see. I understand now. I was confused by your use of the terms throwing and chucking, as they are usually used in relation to an illegal delivery where the arm straightens.

Yes, getting it down the other end of the pitch can be quite difficult; I myself cannot bowl 22 yards(although I have been building up the distance when I practice: I can bowl about 14 yards at the moment, which is considerably more than when I started practising with a serious mind.).

To be honest I haven't found the side-spinner(the one where the seam is perpendicular to the pitch) much harder to bowl than the over-spun leg break(the one which points towards the slips). The side-spinner is a little harder to get down the other end, but it's not that much harder, though this is probably due to that my wrist position and flick are usually good, and that my problems with distance stem from other parts of my action.

You've got to remember that the wrist flick is not a big flourishing movement. Just watch any of the coaching videos: it is really quite a small contained movement. You don't move your wrist so much that it causes your arm to bend and lose power.

It is a small movement with which your arm can stay straight. When done correctly it feels like you are "pushing" the ball into the air, almost like you are doing shot put with a straight arm and a wrist rotation at the end.

I can't really answer what length to bowl on a concrete matting pitch. The local nets that I practice at do have concrete matting nets, but I get all varying kinds of bounce(maybe the nets are slightly uneven or something). It seems to depend on a number of things: the distance I bowl; how far away I bowl from, and how much power I give the delivery. For instance, I've bowled flat side-spinners from about 14 yards that have pitched about 4 meters from the batsman and hit the top of off stump; but a couple of weeks earlier I bowled a loopy top-spinner from 12 yards, pitched it about a metre from the batsmen and it steepled through chest height, so I really have no idea.

I tend to bowl between middle and just outside leg, but that's because I have spin friendly surfaces to bowl on so if I pitched on off it would generally spin a bit to wide of the batsmen to make him play(I don't have a wrong'un). Generally I bowl a Warne line rather than a Macgill line(well I try; I am very inaccurate).

That said, in my opinion what line you should bowl is very condition dependent. If I was bowling on a flat road that didn't turn I couldn't bowl on leg stump: I would get hammered. I would be much better off bowling an off stump line.

I don't know of any other coaching videos.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;333972 said:
Thank you all for your advice.
Gundalf if when bowling the big leg break and you are spinning the ball towards yourself, and you are in a side on position you would have to 'throw' it forward to propell it towards the batsman wouldn't you?

In one of the pages in philpott a picture shows him bowling under arm. One is the wrong one , the other the big leg break. Inthe big leg break the seam of the ball as shown in the picture implies he is bowling with HUGE backspin. I can bowl this underarm but cannot get it overarm over a long distance. It is as though by brain cannot get it.

Changing tack ECB have a dvd called wings to fly or something similar, I tried to contact ECB but told me it is not for sale, except if you are an ECB coach. It has a good chunk on leg spin apparently.
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Yeah I'm in agreement with you on all this stuff, the ability to move forwards in the delivery and the arm going forwards gives you the momentum to project the ball forwards, if then right at the point of release you're able to flick the wrist not sideways but slightly backwards as well it follows that the ball will turn more - The Big Leg Break. I've done it before and it works but under unusual circumstances and then never been able to repeat it over a long distance. Over a short distance it's easy.

That DVD went recently on Ebay for about 8 quid. Interesting to hear they wont sell it to the likes of us, I'll have to get one of our ECB qualified coaches to get it for me in that case.

I like the point you make about the brain not getting it. This is what happens when you bowl too many Googlies in my blog Wrist Spin Bowling: The Googly Syndrome I write this -

Someone once explained to me that when you do something demanding and physical again and again many thousands of times your body gets into a state where what was initially very difficult becomes wholly natural because you've taught and trained the body and brain as a combination to produce the physical manifestation of the act to be wholly natural. I suppose it's like driving? When most people get into a car they find the act of looking, thinking and doing all the physical things in a sequence in order to change gear exceptionally difficult, but given time 99% learn it and what was an extremely complex and un-natural process become wholly fluid and natural. I think the wrong un is like this and it is so un-natural that in learning it in the way that I did to then ask you to go back to bowling the Legbreak would like asking you as a car driver to drive a left hand drive car with the pedals all the wrong way round as well as the steering wheel and handbrake, but instead of pressing the pedals down you have to lift them to brake and accelerate and when you want to turn right you have to steer left and vice versa - you couldn't. I think that once you've trained your brain to bowl the wrong un, bowling the Legbreak then becomes impossible.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;334213 said:
Yeah I'm in agreement with you on all this stuff, the ability to move forwards in the delivery and the arm going forwards gives you the momentum to project the ball forwards, if then right at the point of release you're able to flick the wrist not sideways but slightly backwards as well it follows that the ball will turn more - The Big Leg Break. I've done it before and it works but under unusual circumstances and then never been able to repeat it over a long distance. Over a short distance it's easy.

That DVD went recently on Ebay for about 8 quid. Interesting to hear they wont sell it to the likes of us, I'll have to get one of our ECB qualified coaches to get it for me in that case.

I like the point you make about the brain not getting it. This is what happens when you bowl too many Googlies in my blog Wrist Spin Bowling: The Googly Syndrome I write this -

Someone once explained to me that when you do something demanding and physical again and again many thousands of times your body gets into a state where what was initially very difficult becomes wholly natural because you've taught and trained the body and brain as a combination to produce the physical manifestation of the act to be wholly natural. I suppose it's like driving? When most people get into a car they find the act of looking, thinking and doing all the physical things in a sequence in order to change gear exceptionally difficult, but given time 99% learn it and what was an extremely complex and un-natural process become wholly fluid and natural. I think the wrong un is like this and it is so un-natural that in learning it in the way that I did to then ask you to go back to bowling the Legbreak would like asking you as a car driver to drive a left hand drive car with the pedals all the wrong way round as well as the steering wheel and handbrake, but instead of pressing the pedals down you have to lift them to brake and accelerate and when you want to turn right you have to steer left and vice versa - you couldn't. I think that once you've trained your brain to bowl the wrong un, bowling the Legbreak then becomes impossible.
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Great analogy.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The Edge Of Willow;334212 said:
You've got to remember that the wrist flick is not a big flourishing movement. Just watch any of the coaching videos: it is really quite a small contained movement. You don't move your wrist so much that it causes your arm to bend and lose power.

It is a small movement with which your arm can stay straight. When done correctly it feels like you are "pushing" the ball into the air, almost like you are doing shot put with a straight arm and a wrist rotation at the end.
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This is all very interesting because as you all well know I've been suffering from the Googly Syndrome and not been able to bowl leg breaks at all. Over the closed season here in the UK I've been putting in the hours trying to get this right. I've been trying not to bowl the Googly at all and instead concentrating 95% of the time in trying to ressurect my Leg Break. I've been trying all sorts of things - grips, flicks, follow throughs and new wrist positions and at last I think I can now say that I've got there. In the last few days and especially today I've been bowling consistently turning balls and some of the stuff you've just written about here have been integral to my success. The 'Pushing' the ball through the air seems to have made a very big difference and your shot put analogy is spot on it's this that seems to have given my small leg break some of its more important attributes - dip and drift. I can also see that with more practice I am going to be able to probably affect a small wrist flick which'll hopefully put more spin on the ball and perhaps produce the Medium Leg Break!!!

Have a look at my Blog Wrist Spin Bowling: I am a Wrist Spin bowler with a Leg break!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;334113 said:
Thank you EOW, what i meant by throwing is not chucking as in elbow straightening, but as in PROPELLING FORWARD ie spinning it towards you whole propelling forward, that is the difficult part i find.

The small leg spinner having the seam pointing to slips as in \\ as compared to the big spinner whose seam points = ( seam perpendicular to the pitch with seam pointing to point on one side and square leg on the other side, like warne's ball to gatting on You Tube). That is the best I can explain it. As i said under arm I manage to bowl it and it turns nearly square, but over arm no luck. By the way when I try this I try them on a concrete tennis court.

Also on a concrete pitch with matting which is the best length in metres from the crease do you pich the leg spinner ( please not where the batsman does not know whether to play back or forwards ).

Also where do you usually bowl eg middle. or offstump.

Last one is anyone aware of any coaching videos besides the warne, jenner, wattacoach. Thank you
Click to expand...

A batsman once told/showed me to stand with your backfoot on the crease and the stretch your bat out at arms length and draw an imaginary circle. It's that distance which is about 2.5 - 3 metres in front of the stumps I suppose? I personally bowl around that length at off-stump when I practice, but it's a whole new game when you've got a batsman there. Then there's a load of different factors that come into play that I still don't fully understand. The trouble I have is because I'm concentrating on what I'm doing fully it doesn't really allow me to focus much attention on what the batsmans weaknesses are. For instance sitting here now it seems sensible in some respect to bowl at least one ball down the legside or watch the other bowlers over to suss out whether either of the bats have a weakness on the legside? But in a game I don't think I'd have the foresight to remember or consider doing that? I

With my new Leg Break I'll probably do as I do at the minute in the nets which seems fairly productive; Bowl with an off-side emphasis at the off-stump or wider - so this new leg break is ideal as it has all the extra attributes. I'd have an off-side field set up and try and force errors - edges, miss hit balls out to cover and point, top-spinners to force catches, just mix it up and then when they think they're getting on top of your game - The wrong One straight into the stumps or their Bolx or a sneaky faster flipper. I love this game!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Thank you again

EOW I will try the 'shot put' part. In the video it seems that warne does use this strong propelling movement while ripping the ball with fingers, wrist,arms etc from side to side.

Dave,do you mean 2.4 to 3 metres infront of the batting crease rather than in front of the stumps where you would try to pitch the ball?
And as regards the ECB video if it is any good( i assume it has the basics and some drills) could anyone tell me how to get my hands on as I do not reside in the UK, or if there is an equivalent down under?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Saddo, (if I may call you that as I don't know your real name) yeah, we're told to pitch it up right under their noses in a game as we're obviously not on par with the likes of Warne and the general mantra is get in line with the stumps so that they have to play the ball in a more defensive manner. Our own home wicket offers little in the way of turn anyway so my off-stump option makes sense (I think). I'm going to go and measure the distance for you now but I'm almost certain that's the kind of length we bowl at as a default option.

Yeah having measured it it's 3 metres from the stumps so if you're talking about the distance in front of the popping crease File:Cricketpitchmswd.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is approx 3' just short of a metre so I'd be pitching the ball 2 metres in front of the popping crease as a safe option if I wasn't getting a lot of turn. I think the general concensus is if it's much shorter you're able to track the ball step back and play a shot off the back foot? I can't bat so someone who can might beg to differ.

Saying that I give away runs in order to get the bat to come down the wicket to try and hit the ball at the point it pitches, do this a few times and they start to get some confidence and then you do something different - longer, faster etc.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yepp thats the length (coming from an all rounder), I know when I face spinners, it's the length that makes you have to get right forward to it, but just a bit short of that so it allows the ball to spin. This way they either slog, or defensively play it, maybe resulting in an edge.

If the batsman is camping in his crease on the back foot, try and get a little fuller, he obviously isn't the driving type.

Hope that helps.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Thank you breeno and dave.

I guess you have to tempt them to drive you hoping to get an edge or getting bowled.

Do you feel you have to propel the ball for your wrong one like edge of willow described for the leg break, or is it mainly ripping the ball with your wrist turned round?

Also do you find that the ball turns more on concrete eg a basketball court compared to turf pitches. And do you feel that after all it is the turn that gets most wickets or the flight, length, drift, and speed of delivery.

Additionally how easy do you find it to land the ball in a small area you intended it to. I find this very difficult and the more I practice the worse it becomes. So if I would not have practiced for one week length and line get better. So much for practice makes perfect!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Saddo - With regards spot bowling and landing the ball in the right area I used to do the following. I had a plank of hardboard just a bit wider than 9" and about 4' long and I used to place it in differing positions in front of the stumps (Length). The encouraging thing is because of the length is 4' it's quite easy to gain success with the length and for reasons discussed earlier the length can be variable as it keeps the bat on his toes. But the satisfaction comes with getting the ball to land on the plank with regards width on regular basis. If you read the blog entry I think it might mention that at the time I was really focussed on accuracy and was primarily bowling Top - Spinners in the pursuit of accuracy. But this worked for me really well and improved my bowling no end - but it did take months of practice. I think in different places you read about people bowling onto Pennies and stuff - Richie Benaud. But as I recall both Jenner and Philpott don't push for that kind of accuracy. Wrist Spin Bowling: More practice ideas - Leg Spin Bowling

The Wrong Un for me is the easiest variation and I personally find a really relaxed grip with all the fingers equally spaced works best. This produces my Big Wrong Un and it may be that the relaxed grip frees up my wrist and arm to enable to the ball to come out of an acutely twisted arm.

With regards turn on concrete as opposed to wickets, yeah I reckon there's something in that. On some wickets I can't get the ball to turn at all which is disillusioning especially if you're on form. I generally have half hour on the local field before I go and play in a match and on our green grass field I bowl like Shane Warne then when I get to a proper cricket pitch I can't repeat the same. As I said I used to get really disillusioned with this, but watching International cricket e.g. tonight Eng v West Indies you can see that Swann and Panesar were getting very little turn. Our home wicket is re-known for the fact that it just soaks up any spin, but there's a wicket only 15 miles away where we play and that offers shed loads of turn and is great to bowl on. So the surface/wicket makes a lot of difference.

I can empathise with the giving it a break and coming back to it and finding big improvements. I've always found this in all aspects of my life. I think you can get to a point where you're trying so hard that it's to the detriment of what you're doing and that you need to step back and evaluate what's happening and come back to it with a more open mind and a new level of positivity. Having a week out can do the same thing.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

SS(What is ur real name)??

On a personal note u must change that name as that does not give a positive sign and u r letting urself down with these names.
Spinners have to be confident and pu up a brave front even if things are not in his favour.
Try to practice a lot and if possible upload ur bowling video.
There are lot of guys who can help u?
If not in UK where are u located is it in mumbai?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Virender, I reckon 'Saddo' is taking the mickey out of himself when he calls him 'Sad Spinner' it's probably because it's all he ever does and no-one apart from us understands where he's coming from! I know what he means - I'm a total Saddo as well because all I ever do is write about and talk about cricket especially wrist spin bowling. It's an esoteric thing and anyone on the outside looking in who have got no idea about cricket just see it as being really sad!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Dave read it well virender. It is this obsession of trying to achieve our holy grail of the leg break, that drives us to a roller coaster of emotions, from the high of identifying a possible breaktrough by making a minor adjustment to the wrist, to the low of trying it out in practice and noticing that your plans did not have the desired effect. It is the obsession of looking through the net, reading philpott over and over hoping to find some cryptic message that you might not have understood or misunderstood, reading this forum, seeing warne's and macgills videos on you tube and muttering how the **** can they do it ,with a tinge of jeaoulsy. Seeing, dreaming cricket, carrying a cricket ball at home or work and giving it a tweak when the wife is not looking for fear of being told that you are carrying it too far. Going out to have a practice away from the prying eyes in a force 6 wind hoping the turn, dip , drift, flight will magically appear and carry the ball to unimagined impossible trajectories while the imaginery batsman gropes at thin air or at least gets a feather on it. Oh to understand the sadness of a wrist spinner, you have to be one, it is the weight you have to carry day in day out until you achieve what you know you never will. Very sad but life goes on and the hope lives on till the light goes out. Tut tut virender I thought left arm spinners shared our same sense of awe of deliverig a tweaked ball albeit with less difficulty then a leggie.


Back to our quest, dave nice photos on your blog. I presume the place facing the camera is where the batsman stands and not facing the bowler. I found difficulty even in our "bible" as to whether the pictures where showing what the batsman would see, or what the bowler would see.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

nice pics dave, on another note my finger still hasn't healed, does anyone know of a way to harden up the skin more quickly than just from bowling.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

That had me laughing at work when I read that, we are in a parrallel universe I reckon! Saddo you've got to find yourself a team before you get sectioned, just find a local team that plays Sunday friendlies or something - anything just as long as you spin the ball up there and try and take some wickets.

Yeah the images on the blog would be what you'd see of the hand from the batsmans end watching me bowl. I don't know what version you've got of the Bible but if it's a newish one it's got Warne bowling what looks like one of my Top Spinners with Dicky Bird umpiring. This is the angle all the images are shot from.

I agree with the point with regards the images in 'The Bible' they are tricky to figure out because they've got the arm coming into the shot from the right hand side of the frame, instead of vertical. I think this is simply due to the fact that the photographer and maybe Philpott himself just didn't consider the possibility of shooting the arm and wrist position to help clarify what they're trying to convey?

By the way I found Peter Philpott..... http://manly-daily.whereilive.com.a...ying-price-for-ignoring-spin-bowling-lessons/
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

gundalf7;335331 said:
nice pics dave, on another note my finger still hasn't healed, does anyone know of a way to harden up the skin more quickly than just from bowling.
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Maybe wear it with something else that's abrasive so that your skin forms callouses? I'll probably have Liz Wizard emailing me now saying 'You can't say that'!! Maybe ask the question on the fitness and nutrition section of the forum?
 
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