Wrist Spin Bowling

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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Never seen a chinaman bowl except katich and hogg. Is he accurate, does he turn it at all, and does he take shedloads of wickets? Be discrete, he might be keeping an eye on you. Remember the season is nigh.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I've just come on-line and there's 3 people in the whole world logged on amongst how many members 22,000 or something I read? And it's us lot - Gundalf, Macca and me! Wrist spinners!

That sounds fast - Gandalf - how do you know you're that fast?

With regards the comments about the grip. If I'm talking about the Leg break I'm still searching for the solution that will give me consistency and control. I've noticed that when I bowl sometimes I get good dip and nice turn so I'm assuming that means the ball is spinning with a diagonal motion so includes the over-spin as well as the sideways spin? But other times the dips not so apparent and the flight is straighter more like a Flipper - this ball turns better, but doing this on demand is still a long way off. Even though I've got a Leg Break of sorts I'm still working on the Biggun in the background, but just not getting too hung up on not getting far with it, some days I do well with it and others it's pants, but this is over about 15 yards, so at the minute it's nothing to write home about.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

You'd be surprised at how much a top spinner bounces on most surfaces. On the field I practice on I'm always surprised that despite the fact that it's damp and soggy at this time of year the difference in bounce the top spinner produces is very dramatic compared to all the others - enough to force a mistake off the glove or top of the bat if used deftly. I've just left an apt comment in one of the batting threads just to wind them all up in the style of Mr Grimett - http://www.bigcricket.com/forum/t65045-2/#post344522 just a bit of fun!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

We had a bowl yesterday on a concrete pitch with slightly damp matting, and found the ball skidding through and not bouncing so much. My son bowled 5 overs and I was behind the stumps, he only bowled 1 bad ball, that was a long hop, but it was just outside off, and it spun quickly, so amongst all the good deliveries it might have been a wicket taker.
The best thing was he has got his leg break going good, he had been bowling too many topspinners and when he strayed down the legside they were just bad balls, but yesterday he only strayed down the legside 4 times and each time he broke the stumps.
The work he is putting in on his backspinner( philpotts backspinning- topspinner) must be changing his wrist setting to more backspin and sidespin and less topspin. Just the odd topspinner now.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yes read that, they will sh'""# in their pants reading it. Though I doubt they have the culture to know who grimmett was. Warne showed us that with words and bullying he could take many wickets, Grimmett as well. So could be a ploy you could try when a new batsman comes in. You just have to hope he does not hit you for a four or six and tell you to go and fetch the ball
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

dave i've been playing with my videos, using frame by frame with a timer accurate to hundreths of a second to calculate how long it takes between release and when it pitches. As its been done on my garage i've got a list of measurements to each object so I can tell where it has pitched accurately. Then all you have to do is divide the distance by the seconds and multiply it by 2.23693629 to convert it to miles per hour.

Its surprisingly accurate i've tried it on a fair few proper videos of spinners (using an onscreen ruler to calculate distance) and it seems to be a few mph to slow which will be how much the ball slows in the air and also the loopy flight combined with the height it comes down from.

As for the grips being away from the fingers it will give more force if you can still get it to come of the fingertip as it should as you have more flexibility to create a larger force.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah he's good - he's our top wicket taker. He doesn't turn it much and says that himself and if he does get it to turn it's generally off spin into a RH bat. What he does do that's good and it's something you might have noticed that I myself have been getting excited about is bowl a delivery which falls out of the sky like a stone (Dip) and this is his off-spinner so it's his LH version of the leg break. But at the same time he does tend to bowl towards the end of the match and get all the Bunnies thus he has the club record for the most wickets in a year. But he's a good bowler - very accurate and fast with that dip and he knows what he's doing as he's been at it for nearly 20 years I think so he looks for the batsman weaknesses and recognises them and then bowls accordingly.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Sounds impressive Macca! I always kind of think you Aussies have got a distinct advantage over us Poms hence the reason you beat us most of the time and that's the fact that you've got the weather on your side? I'm under the impression even if you live south of Sydney the temperature rarely dips below 10 degrees even in your winter and if you live up anywhere near Brisbane or north of there it's just one long summer all year? So you can get so much more 'Outside time' to take part in sports whereas here - come November it's batten down the hatches till March (late March). Is there in any truth in my beliefs?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Had a great net session today. Worked on getting the front arm into the delivery more. It was superb; the pace was so much better and there were a far smaller number of short balls.

There were a couple of other people there at the nets for a short while, so I got to have a short bowl at a batsmen. Did quite well, although the batsmen made it kind of easy by charging me half the time. Stumpings galore.

sadspinner said:
Yes where I practice is concrete so the bounce gets high and misses the stump height.
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Yeah, I have similar situation. The local nets are a matting-concrete surface, so my length leg-breaks tend to bounce half a foot to a foot over the stumps.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

gundalf7;344860 said:
dave i've been playing with my videos, using frame by frame with a timer accurate to hundreths of a second to calculate how long it takes between release and when it pitches. As its been done on my garage i've got a list of measurements to each object so I can tell where it has pitched accurately. Then all you have to do is divide the distance by the seconds and multiply it by 2.23693629 to convert it to miles per hour.

Its surprisingly accurate i've tried it on a fair few proper videos of spinners (using an onscreen ruler to calculate distance) and it seems to be a few mph to slow which will be how much the ball slows in the air and also the loopy flight combined with the height it comes down from.

As for the grips being away from the fingers it will give more force if you can still get it to come of the fingertip as it should as you have more flexibility to create a larger force.
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That's bloody fast then! We had a speed gun in the nets a couple of weeks ago and our fastest bowler was clocking 65mph and man was he going some. My mate who's a wrist spinner and bowls a lot faster than me was clocking up 35mph. So maybe our gun wasn't that accurate?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

yeah I was pretty amazed as i've been over my footage from last season and i've gained 7-8 miles per hour over my footage from this time last year and i'm probablly 5 mph quicker than at the end of last season. I'm really reaping the benefit of my improved action and i'd guess i'm a fair bit stronger as well.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Not sure of the exact type. I currently have three: one was a Christmas present a couple of years ago, I think it was a two-piece. One I found lying about at the nets.

The other was given to me by a coach who was at my local nets watching one of his players. He saw me bowling and was rather impressed(this really had me rather concerned about the quality of club spinners :)), told me to get organised and join a team, then gave me a cricket ball. So I really have no idea what type the last two balls are(they were both a bit worn at the time I got them so the text that says the type of ball was worn off).
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

When this site was mainly UK based I had this idea - where people on the website might get together and form a couple of teams from the people on-line, hire a pitch somewhere in the Midlands or somewhere central and have a game. I'd love to see some of the other people play and have a game - how much of a laugh might that be!?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I've been very pleased and surprised by my pace in the last couple of net sessions. All I basically did was improve the use of my front arm and the amount of pace skyrocketed.

Unfortunately, I don't have a way to measure it reliably. I can estimate that the ball took about a second(which would be about 70 kph, or 43.75 mph) to get down the other end, but that's not very accurate. It would be fractions of a second either side of that, which would have a significant affect on how fast the delivery actually was.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

So the surface is concrete with a mat thing on top and that's giving too much bounce? Try cheap rubbish balls like the Davidson ones that you find on-line, they're made of rubbish literally and have no give in them e.g. no bounce, so if you're using quality balls you might find the Davidson balls a lot less bouncy?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Dave, up north cricket is played in the winter rather than summer. In Sydney they have a winter comp for kids, and with global warming its making more sense.
On the subject of how fast should a leg-spinner bowl? I will quote Peter Philpott.

"..every delivery must be made with the body and shoulder fully behind it, plus a powerful wrist and finger spin. As long as you are doing this you cannot bowl too slowly, for with the body swing and follow through, you will nip off the wicket.."

"...if you are simply rolling the ball into the air with out the body behind the delivery, you will lack any nip off the wicket..."

"...remember everyone is different, and there is a natural speed for each bowler. As long as your body and shoulder are working fully in delivery, there is no need to speed up..."

These quotes are from a 1973 interview with Philpott, where he was asked how fast should a leg- spinner bowl. Its like Grimmetts advice where he says as long as your getting pace and nip off the pitch and not losing it, you are going to succeed, no matter how slow.
Of course if your natural speed is very slow you won't make it in first grade cricket.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Gundalf, was seeing your avatar. That is the identical grip i use!! I then try the Iverson/gleeson picture as per my avatar to try to keep the ball straighter by flicking the middle finger, but this is still in the embryonic phase. Then use the classic 2 up 2 down to bowl the googly. To bowl the flipper, I use a grip similar to the one in a picture of kaneria i had posted some time ago.

Do you manage to bowl the googly or the big leg break with that grip? Will be interesting to know.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I think I'm possibly very slow when I'm slow, but I vary the speed all the time to mix things up. I don't think it matters that much and a slow ball can undo many a good batsman, my little-un gets most of his wickets by virtue of being only 7 and therefore a slow bowler. I've bowled in matches with little kids in - one in particular where one batsman was taking all of the adults to the cleaners no matter what they threw at him and one little 13 year old lobbed a ball up straight and above his eye-line, the bloke played the shot, but the ball wasn't there to be hit and he was gone.

I'm currently reading Grimmetts on taking wickets kindly copied and sent to me by Macca, cheers bloke very much appreciated! Anyway he's just mentioned a point regarding round arm verses a more vertical arm. The comparison he makes is that of skimming stones across a pond. Suggesting quite rightly that if you throw a flat stone using a vertical arm action it's simply going to disappear into the water, whereas the sideways arm action means that the flat stone doesn't break the surface and instead skims bouncing several times before disappearing. The inference is that the round arm action facilitates a faster movement off the pitch. The vertical action would mean some of the kinetic energy would be absorbed into the pitch and thus slow the ball down.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Concrete pitches and net set-ups are everywhere around here, there would be 10 almost within walking distance of our house. The best thing is they all face different directions , so I like to look for a headwind mostly to get ideal conditions for drop. Kids grow up playing on concrete and when they graduate to turf pitches defects with their bowling become apparent. Even in one of Grimmetts books he talks about this problem and he says it was peculiar to Australia. He says lots of youngsters have to learn their bowling all over again.
If a kid is bowling his leg spin properly, and doing most things right he won't get many clean bowled wickets on concrete, because of the bounce.
It's a good idea if you can get to have a bowl on a turf pitch or nets every so often just to see what bounce you are really achieving without the effect of the concrete. Using balls that dont bounce as much every so often to check is a good idea, but some of the cheaper balls are hard on willow bats so bowling to no batsman is better. It helps if you know a curator. At the end of the season is a good time to get a go on grass.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;345028 said:
I'm currently reading Grimmetts on taking wickets kindly copied and sent to me by Macca, cheers bloke very much appreciated! Anyway he's just mentioned a point regarding round arm verses a more vertical arm. The comparison he makes is that of skimming stones across a pond. Suggesting quite rightly that if you throw a flat stone using a vertical arm action it's simply going to disappear into the water, whereas the sideways arm action means that the flat stone doesn't break the surface and instead skims bouncing several times before disappearing. The inference is that the round arm action facilitates a faster movement off the pitch. The vertical action would mean some of the kinetic energy would be absorbed into the pitch and thus slow the ball down.
Click to expand...

That is a very good point and is well explained relating to the skimming on water.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

You are right macca. But due to dry weather here and the massive unpopularity of cricket in my country there are no turf pitches here. Before i used to pravtice on a football ground with a rather sandy surface, the bounce was much lower and you had to pitch it fuller or it would bounce twice before reaching the stumps.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

My young bloke is slow but he puts incredible revs on the ball and flights it, and as the ball is in the air longer, as it is travelling slower, than it has more time to drift and drop. Also he looks a lot slower from mid-on, than when you are actually facing him, the turn he gets is fast not always wide.
When he is bowling at his best , like he is at the moment, he has a large area where he can land the ball and trouble the batsman, the further he strays down legside the bigger the spin back he achieves and if he strays wide outside off stump with 5 fieldsman there plus him you can contain most players.
I'm always trying to get him to bowl faster, he uses the Warne walk-in, run-up and I cant change it. He does put a huge effort in at delivery, usually accompanied by a grunt and you can hear his fingers snapping if you are close enough.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Back in Sept/Oct when I still couldn't get any of my balls other than the Flipper and Gipper to turn towards off and I was still searching for my Leg Break. But a really important step in getting it right was the inclusion of lifting the leg over and through in the pivot action (I think this was a point made in the Beau Casson video) and then someone else said that it helps if that action is so exaggerated that you end up kicking your arse as the leg comes through - which may have been Macca. So focusing on the pivot using those bits of advice lead to me re-discovering my Leg Break in part.

I think my better Leg Breaks happen when it feels as though I've been suspended longer on the pivot foot, which I suppose also means the shoulder must fully come over each other in the their rotation too - so this suggest you hang on to the ball longer and it comes off that crucial 3rd finger much later and therefore gets more revs?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Macca, it sounds like it can only get better as he gets older and stronger. I've just had a good net session, I'm writing it up on my main blog now, I'll post some stuff up later.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

yeah sadspinner I bowl the topspinner, googly and leg break all with the same grip most of the time(googly occasionally has my thumb on the ball). Flipper though is more of an orthodox leg break grip though with thumb underneath. I can bowl a big googly and a big leg break, though it doesn't seem to turn as much as my normal leg breaks, though i'm guessing that is surface dependant.

As for the high bouncing leg breaks, you'll have to use a low bouncing ball or just get used to practicing with the ball going over the stumps though you know on a proper turf wicket it will hit. Its just an experience thing I guess to get used to bowling on turf or concrete but as long as your bowling the right length for the pitch you'll be playing on your alright, though it helps to practice changing your length anyway for when you need to do it in a game situation e.g. if someone is taking guard outside the crease.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Well I'm not sure I'd worry too much about pace at his age(I can remember if you mentioned his actual age, but you did say young, so I would be guessing no older than about 11).

He would still have a lot of growing to do and strength to gain, which would have a significant effect, especially considering he has a Warne like approach.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yes that is what I mean , when i release later as you say the turn seems to be better.
Gundalf, I do not manage to turn my wrist so much with that grip somehow, probably an age factor. I wonder whether any decent leg spinner bowled with this grip in the past. I read that Kumble bowls one of his googlies with his thumb and forefinger only.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

This is from my main blog at Wrist Spin Bowling: 3rd from last net session

After some warm up exercises the nets were pulled out pretty sharpish and we had about 6 blokes in the nets. I was hoping to bowl at some of the first team players as I did last week but Matt said that he only wanted 1st team players in the net as they needed to practice seriously as there's only a few weeks left before the season gets under way in a more serious manner.

Initially I bowled rubbish which underlines the neccessity for me to bowl before I go into the nets or a match. After several balls I settled down a bit and bowled primarily Top Spinners, Wrong Uns and Flippers (Grimmett Flippers). It went quite well as I hit the stumps at least twice this week and got it past the bat leaving the batsman stranded out of his crease several times too which is the technique that I tend to favour in the nets. Then the chance came to bat, I got all my gear on and then realised I hadn't brought my special 'Box pants' with me and that I was wearing baggy boxer shorts. So I stuffed the box down there and then got some support from the elastic from my hip protector but to be honest the box was rattling about all over the gaff, but I was so determined to see if the Bradman bat had caused any improvement I decided to risk it. What it did mean was that every 4 seconds or so I was having to re-adjust it, but I persevered and despite the fact that I had to concentrate more on my balls than the balls that were coming out of the hands of the bowlers I did remarkably well. Without doubt this was the best net session with the bat I've ever had. I reckon I managed to get the bat on the ball 9 out of 10 times and 8 out of 10 times it went somewhere in a safe fashion rather than high and potentially into the hands of a batsman. So for me this represents an exponentially large improvement that I'm going to attribute to the Bradman bat practice and therefore means I'm going to continue with it for the forseeable future. Additionally I was having to face some of the faster bowlers who bowl in excess of 60mph - a bloke called Mason in particular and some new bloke I've never seen before and with all of their balls I was either able to make contact with the ball or leave it. So this was very encouraging especially in view of the fact that I had problems with my box. I'm now looking forward to next week after another week of practice with the 1" bat and I'll be wearing my special pants.

Speed Gun

Again they had the speed gun in the nets and this time I had my bowling speed measured. I've always been under the impression that I bowl ridiculously slow and that even my faster deliveries were not going to be that much faster. So I was very surprised that with very little effort my Flipper came in at 43mph and my wrong un was measured at 47mph (And it took the wicket clean bowled). The faster version of my wrong un I don't generally bowl that much and it reminded me that when I first learnt to bowl it we used to practice with a Pakistani bloke over on the field (Suhail) who claimed to have toured England with the Pakistani under 21's team or something when he was younger and it was with this fast Wrong Un that I was always able to bowl him out and he was a very handy player and was always full of praise for that particular delivery. So maybe I should start to use it again as a variation, perhaps any time I bowl the wrong un this is the way I should bowl it in future? Seems to make sense?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

yeah, i don't know of any leggies that primarilly used that grip, the closest is gleeson. The grip itself the only disadvantages when compared to the normal are it seems to be slightly harder to keep the seam straight(if the thumb isn't on the ball) and it maybe comes out a touch slower than with the orthodox grip. Its hard to know really if anyone has used this before as the grips were so closely guarded by the spinners of old and every spinner has their own slight variations from the norm.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

My grips seem to be changing at the moment, I'm still searching for the grip that gives me the best results with the leg break. The differences seem very subtle but seem to result in a big difference with the amount of turn I get off the wicket. But I might be mistaken in thinking it's the grip that's making the difference - it could well be that my general action on some days is so much better without me realising it and then I attribute the improvement to the grip? It's not easy is it this Wrist Spin lark!!!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

yeah its amazing the difference with the action on the turn and the speed the ball comes out. When I manage to get side on now I get much more turn and better accuracy compared to if i'm slightly front on. The difference in speed is also amazing, from a standing start my action is about 40mph, stock ball with most of the run up is more like 45-47 and if I get the rhythm right and spin it quite hard its low 50's
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Virendersingh.berthwal;345310 said:
Macca,

Can u share bowling video of your son.

Virender
Click to expand...

I haven't got any video, but I will definately try and get some soon and post it. It will probably be in a few weeks by the time I get around to it, I am not set up for it , but I will find someone to help me do it.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I'm pretty happy with my grip a the moment. It is nice and loose; with the the two fingers up and the two fingers down as far apart as I can get them. The two fingers that are up are close together and the thumb resting on the ball almost parallel to the seam.

I changed it a little while back so to was looser; it seamed to improve the spin I got, but I was also working front arm and pivot at the same time, so it's a bit hard to tell. I think it must of had some effect. My pervious grip was really tight; the ball seem to sort of stick in my hand a bit.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Peter Philpott was a child prodigy with a cricket ball, and a bat for that matter. He was playing in the mens competition aged 12! This is from a 1946 newspaper story about him.
Rivals smile but not for long. Only 12, he ties up batsmen.
"When 12 year old Peter Philpott, 5st. 7lb and 4ft. 7in. tall, goes on to bowl for the Manly District team in the local competition men burst out laughing. Their laughter, however turns to anxiety as Philpott turns his leg-breaks a foot on the matting wickets.
Philpott ties down 16-stone opponents to their creases and his deliveries have to be closely watched. In recent matches Philpott took 2-36 and 3-77, pretty good for a boy against men."
There are some photos with the story that show Philpott as a 12 year old bowling, with his cap on, after the manner of Grimmett.
 
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