Virendersingh.berthwal
Active Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
Macca,
Can u share bowling video of your son.
Virender
Macca,
Can u share bowling video of your son.
Virender
Wrist Spin Bowling
- Thread starter someblokecalleddave
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sadspinner
Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
Found these on grimmett. He is very low/round arm. In one he seems to be resting his non bowling arm on his thigh. Must have been ired
Sportspages.com: GRIMMETT, CLARENCE VICTOR (AUSTRALIA)
Found these on grimmett. He is very low/round arm. In one he seems to be resting his non bowling arm on his thigh. Must have been ired
Sportspages.com: GRIMMETT, CLARENCE VICTOR (AUSTRALIA)
sadspinner
Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
And these. He seems to use his thumb as i do and philpott seems to do to, at least going by the pictures on his book. Also in the other book he seems to release the ball very late. He has gone well past the vertical. Is this possible or is it as he was posing for the photo. Never seen warne release it down there in the clips. Any ideas Sportspages.com: GRIMMETT, CLARENCE VICTOR (AUSTRALIA)
And these. He seems to use his thumb as i do and philpott seems to do to, at least going by the pictures on his book. Also in the other book he seems to release the ball very late. He has gone well past the vertical. Is this possible or is it as he was posing for the photo. Never seen warne release it down there in the clips. Any ideas Sportspages.com: GRIMMETT, CLARENCE VICTOR (AUSTRALIA)
macca
Active Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
Peter Philpott was a child prodigy with a cricket ball, and a bat for that matter. He was playing in the mens competition aged 12! This is from a 1946 newspaper story about him.
Rivals smile but not for long. Only 12, he ties up batsmen.
"When 12 year old Peter Philpott, 5st. 7lb and 4ft. 7in. tall, goes on to bowl for the Manly District team in the local competition men burst out laughing. Their laughter, however turns to anxiety as Philpott turns his leg-breaks a foot on the matting wickets.
Philpott ties down 16-stone opponents to their creases and his deliveries have to be closely watched. In recent matches Philpott took 2-36 and 3-77, pretty good for a boy against men."
There are some photos with the story that show Philpott as a 12 year old bowling, with his cap on, after the manner of Grimmett.
Peter Philpott was a child prodigy with a cricket ball, and a bat for that matter. He was playing in the mens competition aged 12! This is from a 1946 newspaper story about him.
Rivals smile but not for long. Only 12, he ties up batsmen.
"When 12 year old Peter Philpott, 5st. 7lb and 4ft. 7in. tall, goes on to bowl for the Manly District team in the local competition men burst out laughing. Their laughter, however turns to anxiety as Philpott turns his leg-breaks a foot on the matting wickets.
Philpott ties down 16-stone opponents to their creases and his deliveries have to be closely watched. In recent matches Philpott took 2-36 and 3-77, pretty good for a boy against men."
There are some photos with the story that show Philpott as a 12 year old bowling, with his cap on, after the manner of Grimmett.
sadspinner
Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
Even he seems to keep his thumb on the ball http://www.flickr.com/photos/statelibraryofnsw/3064006465/
Even he seems to keep his thumb on the ball http://www.flickr.com/photos/statelibraryofnsw/3064006465/
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
What variations do you bowl, who do you play for, how much do you practice and do you agree or disagree with the points we're making on here generally. Or better still have you got anything to add?
water_boy;345263 said:
What variations do you bowl, who do you play for, how much do you practice and do you agree or disagree with the points we're making on here generally. Or better still have you got anything to add?
The Edge Of Willow
Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
It would be a pose; he's probably demonstrating something in a leg-spinner's action without releasing the ball. My guess would be how you push the ball forward.
There is no possible way that is actually where he released the ball; it wouldn't make the length of the pitch if you released there.
*Edit*
Actually, it could be pretty close to his release point. If you consider his round arm action. His release would have to be later because if it wasn't the ball would go way down the leg-side.
It would be a pose; he's probably demonstrating something in a leg-spinner's action without releasing the ball. My guess would be how you push the ball forward.
There is no possible way that is actually where he released the ball; it wouldn't make the length of the pitch if you released there.
*Edit*
Actually, it could be pretty close to his release point. If you consider his round arm action. His release would have to be later because if it wasn't the ball would go way down the leg-side.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
I've updated my flipper page on my Leg Spin bowling blog Legspin bowling: The Flipper I've added the warning at the end about over-doing the practice with the Flipper for youngsters as I read it again in another book that it's not a good idea for youngsters to develop the flipper with intensive practice. I'm looking into establishing what kind of age you can start to practice in an intensive manner with the Flipper. Anyone got any ideas?
I've updated my flipper page on my Leg Spin bowling blog Legspin bowling: The Flipper I've added the warning at the end about over-doing the practice with the Flipper for youngsters as I read it again in another book that it's not a good idea for youngsters to develop the flipper with intensive practice. I'm looking into establishing what kind of age you can start to practice in an intensive manner with the Flipper. Anyone got any ideas?
macca
Active Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
O'Reilly's grip can be made by forming a pistol with your hand, with the third finger pressed against the palm, and the top two fingers very close together. You really need to use your thumb for his grip. Tiger O Reilly grew up in the outback and was self-taught with little coaching, and when he arrived in Sydney the first thing they tried to change was his grip, which he never did.
Bradman said he was the greatest bowler he had ever faced or had ever seen.
I suppose saddo we could make a list of thumb on or off the ball legspinners. For a start, Grimmett, O 'Reilly and Philpott all had their thumbs on the ball. We can tell from photos and their own descriptions of their grips.
A lot of the Grimmett stuff is posed and non-action, one of the shots is from a series where he demonstrates bowling generally not just legspin. One might be a wrongun, he was always telegraphing his wrongun and emphasising the dropped left shoulder, but he had two wronguns, one obvious and another one where he didn't drop the shoulder and with his supple wrist it was harder to pick.
Grimmett used the wrongun less frequently later in his career but would often reveal it just to let the batsman know he still had one. Even though his wrongun was reported to be not that good he still got plenty of wickets with it, including Bradmans, where he describes bowling a number of wronguns in a row to the Don, which caused him to hole out.
O'Reilly's grip can be made by forming a pistol with your hand, with the third finger pressed against the palm, and the top two fingers very close together. You really need to use your thumb for his grip. Tiger O Reilly grew up in the outback and was self-taught with little coaching, and when he arrived in Sydney the first thing they tried to change was his grip, which he never did.
Bradman said he was the greatest bowler he had ever faced or had ever seen.
I suppose saddo we could make a list of thumb on or off the ball legspinners. For a start, Grimmett, O 'Reilly and Philpott all had their thumbs on the ball. We can tell from photos and their own descriptions of their grips.
A lot of the Grimmett stuff is posed and non-action, one of the shots is from a series where he demonstrates bowling generally not just legspin. One might be a wrongun, he was always telegraphing his wrongun and emphasising the dropped left shoulder, but he had two wronguns, one obvious and another one where he didn't drop the shoulder and with his supple wrist it was harder to pick.
Grimmett used the wrongun less frequently later in his career but would often reveal it just to let the batsman know he still had one. Even though his wrongun was reported to be not that good he still got plenty of wickets with it, including Bradmans, where he describes bowling a number of wronguns in a row to the Don, which caused him to hole out.
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
I play in Australia at Northcote cricket club. I don't have many variations, I only have a top-spinner. My slider still needs work in the nets and also my wrong-un as it is very innacurate. When cricket season is up and running i play friday and saturday and practice my bowling monday, tuesday, wednesday, thursday.
I have a lot of time to practice as I am still in school and I don't have a job also my school has nets so I can practice at lunch time. I agree with a lot of the things that have been said here and I also think that if you are a young spinnner you try and get good coaching and try to get the proper action as early as possible so it is not too late to make changes when they are older. I also think that spinner should be always trying to "spin up" and try and use their front arm as much as possible also a strong follow through with your shoulders and hips doing a lot of the work in conjunction with your wrist will impart more spin on the ball.
We have a thing called district cricket or grade cricket in Australia, different to what you have in England and I play for a district club and it is easy for me to get good coaching because at my district club, and most others we have some of the top coaches and facilities in the state. Also in the 1st XI of that competition a lot of players who are on professional contracts play in it. For example peter siddle played for his club once this year and david hussey also played for his club once. and when shane warne was still playing he played some games in it.
someblokecalleddave;345324 said:
I play in Australia at Northcote cricket club. I don't have many variations, I only have a top-spinner. My slider still needs work in the nets and also my wrong-un as it is very innacurate. When cricket season is up and running i play friday and saturday and practice my bowling monday, tuesday, wednesday, thursday.
I have a lot of time to practice as I am still in school and I don't have a job also my school has nets so I can practice at lunch time. I agree with a lot of the things that have been said here and I also think that if you are a young spinnner you try and get good coaching and try to get the proper action as early as possible so it is not too late to make changes when they are older. I also think that spinner should be always trying to "spin up" and try and use their front arm as much as possible also a strong follow through with your shoulders and hips doing a lot of the work in conjunction with your wrist will impart more spin on the ball.
We have a thing called district cricket or grade cricket in Australia, different to what you have in England and I play for a district club and it is easy for me to get good coaching because at my district club, and most others we have some of the top coaches and facilities in the state. Also in the 1st XI of that competition a lot of players who are on professional contracts play in it. For example peter siddle played for his club once this year and david hussey also played for his club once. and when shane warne was still playing he played some games in it.
sadspinner
Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
Macca looking at this from warne Cricinfo - Shane Warne bowls during Australia’s net session ahead of his final Test match it is very similar to the grip by o'reilly, even though the thumb cannot be seen. I had read the story that they tried to change his grip. It may eplain why mystery bowlers were successful eg Iverson/Gleeson, Muralitharan, Mendis. Had they been coached at an early age they would have probably been told to change their grip/action. I think only warne and MacGill have been coached and have been successful, but I think have added nothing new to leg spin or spin bowling in general. The last two being successful not due to the fact that they added something new but in that they were unusually talented. It seems even Kumble is very unorthodox, so the point is of the three most successful spinners, two are unorthodox due to probably being unexposed to coaching, while warne who went to academies is orthodox but successful due to immense talent. So the question is, should there really be leg spin coaches except to show you the real basics and possibly advice about tactics? If you lokk at jenner after all these years, has he helped produce a genuinely talented leg spinner despite the clinics he holds round the world? I think the solution is having a big back garden, a few balls, and a dog to get them back to you..... and possibly this thread to get you through the tough days when all seems hopeless. It is like a say Multiple sclerosis support group, where each thrives from another members enthusiasm, and sometimes dare I say failures ( i am a saddo after all, might change my name to DeSade maybe). God it must be the rain here that is doing this to me, rambling and grumbling like an old failed legspinner.
Macca looking at this from warne Cricinfo - Shane Warne bowls during Australia’s net session ahead of his final Test match it is very similar to the grip by o'reilly, even though the thumb cannot be seen. I had read the story that they tried to change his grip. It may eplain why mystery bowlers were successful eg Iverson/Gleeson, Muralitharan, Mendis. Had they been coached at an early age they would have probably been told to change their grip/action. I think only warne and MacGill have been coached and have been successful, but I think have added nothing new to leg spin or spin bowling in general. The last two being successful not due to the fact that they added something new but in that they were unusually talented. It seems even Kumble is very unorthodox, so the point is of the three most successful spinners, two are unorthodox due to probably being unexposed to coaching, while warne who went to academies is orthodox but successful due to immense talent. So the question is, should there really be leg spin coaches except to show you the real basics and possibly advice about tactics? If you lokk at jenner after all these years, has he helped produce a genuinely talented leg spinner despite the clinics he holds round the world? I think the solution is having a big back garden, a few balls, and a dog to get them back to you..... and possibly this thread to get you through the tough days when all seems hopeless. It is like a say Multiple sclerosis support group, where each thrives from another members enthusiasm, and sometimes dare I say failures ( i am a saddo after all, might change my name to DeSade maybe). God it must be the rain here that is doing this to me, rambling and grumbling like an old failed legspinner.
sadspinner
Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
Macca in your avatar, is this a picture of grimmett with his leg break grip, as it is interesting that the thumb seems to be an important aspect of his grip, as opposed to what warne/jenner advocate?
Macca in your avatar, is this a picture of grimmett with his leg break grip, as it is interesting that the thumb seems to be an important aspect of his grip, as opposed to what warne/jenner advocate?
macca
Active Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
Saddo what you are saying is true. In Benauds' " my spin on cricket" he rates Bosquanet, Iverson, Gleeson and Warne as the innovators of spin,. How Warne made his list I dont know, Richie seems a bit in love with Warnie sometimes. But as you say Warne was not a great innovator, just the best "spinner" of a cricket ball in history probably. But as Bobby Simpson says , all Warnes new deliveries were just variations on Philpotts backspinner.
Benaud leaves out Grimmett from his list of innovators, which seems strange because Clarrie invented the flipper, discovered the Iverson grip before Iverson, worked out an outside of the hand slider, a slow ball, in fact he was still working on deliveries in his backyard well past his three score and ten years!
Saddo what you are saying is true. In Benauds' " my spin on cricket" he rates Bosquanet, Iverson, Gleeson and Warne as the innovators of spin,. How Warne made his list I dont know, Richie seems a bit in love with Warnie sometimes. But as you say Warne was not a great innovator, just the best "spinner" of a cricket ball in history probably. But as Bobby Simpson says , all Warnes new deliveries were just variations on Philpotts backspinner.
Benaud leaves out Grimmett from his list of innovators, which seems strange because Clarrie invented the flipper, discovered the Iverson grip before Iverson, worked out an outside of the hand slider, a slow ball, in fact he was still working on deliveries in his backyard well past his three score and ten years!
macca
Active Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
When the last flipper craze swept the country, where kids being rushed to hospital with flipper induced wrist injuries? I dont know .
This must all be besides the fact the young legspinner has got so much to learn before he needs to worry about learning to bowl the flipper.
I am convinced now the delivery Philpott confusingly dubbed the " backspinning topspinner" is the first backspinner they should learn. And I think the concept of spinning the ball back to yourself whilst propelling it forward might be best grasped early on , and it only gets harder the longer they leave it, and after all , it is only a leg-break rotated 90 degrees. You can also start to teach them the complete loop of deliveries from backspinner around to the biggest wrongun.
My 11 year old practised the flipper for a couple of months, then studied Daves youtube demo, then practised what Dave was doing with the ball in that, and the next time we went to the nets he bowled a good flipper, the only wrong thing was it was a little too wide of off stump, but it was very noticeable for its low bounce and speed compared to his other deliveries.
But it was getting too painfull to keep practising it, so we knocked it on the head for a while, but he is still occassionally practising the clicking finger and thumb action with a smaller rubber ball.
I am not sure what age they reckon you should start youngsters on flippers, but they reckon it is a big no-no for very young players, and they use words like "banned", so there must be some medical evidence that it is harmful to developing hands and wrists?someblokecalleddave;345325 said:
When the last flipper craze swept the country, where kids being rushed to hospital with flipper induced wrist injuries? I dont know .
This must all be besides the fact the young legspinner has got so much to learn before he needs to worry about learning to bowl the flipper.
I am convinced now the delivery Philpott confusingly dubbed the " backspinning topspinner" is the first backspinner they should learn. And I think the concept of spinning the ball back to yourself whilst propelling it forward might be best grasped early on , and it only gets harder the longer they leave it, and after all , it is only a leg-break rotated 90 degrees. You can also start to teach them the complete loop of deliveries from backspinner around to the biggest wrongun.
My 11 year old practised the flipper for a couple of months, then studied Daves youtube demo, then practised what Dave was doing with the ball in that, and the next time we went to the nets he bowled a good flipper, the only wrong thing was it was a little too wide of off stump, but it was very noticeable for its low bounce and speed compared to his other deliveries.
But it was getting too painfull to keep practising it, so we knocked it on the head for a while, but he is still occassionally practising the clicking finger and thumb action with a smaller rubber ball.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
What's the story with 'dropping the shoulder' when bowling the wrong un?
I think the case with Terry Jenner is that he's a good solid wrist spinner, but more than that he's able to look at Warne (In particular) and suggest ideas. I get the impression that Jenner just works exceptionally well with Warne for some reason on a one to one basis and Jenners case for being 'The Spin Doctor' is massively helped by virtue of Warne being an exception individual when it comes to wrist spin bowling. Other than Warne who else cites Jenner as being a genius coach as you've said here? Was Jenner instrumental in Warnes development from pre 1993? To leave Grimmett out of the list of great innovators is like not crediting Tenzing and Hilary for conquering Everest because they took so long doing so and then highlighting one of the modern climbers that may have done it more frequently or faster as being better - or is that a really crap analogy?
What's the story with 'dropping the shoulder' when bowling the wrong un?
I think the case with Terry Jenner is that he's a good solid wrist spinner, but more than that he's able to look at Warne (In particular) and suggest ideas. I get the impression that Jenner just works exceptionally well with Warne for some reason on a one to one basis and Jenners case for being 'The Spin Doctor' is massively helped by virtue of Warne being an exception individual when it comes to wrist spin bowling. Other than Warne who else cites Jenner as being a genius coach as you've said here? Was Jenner instrumental in Warnes development from pre 1993? To leave Grimmett out of the list of great innovators is like not crediting Tenzing and Hilary for conquering Everest because they took so long doing so and then highlighting one of the modern climbers that may have done it more frequently or faster as being better - or is that a really crap analogy?
macca
Active Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
Personally I find the thumb gets in the way for all the legspin deliveries except the flipper.
I will have a close look at Grimmetts thumb position in photos and try and work out what he was doing. I think Philpott placed his thumb on the ball, I think I have seen photos of his grip with thumb on the ball? It could be a disguise where the thumb is placed on the ball to give the batsman no hint to Grimmetts flipper?sadspinner;345358 said:
Personally I find the thumb gets in the way for all the legspin deliveries except the flipper.
macca
Active Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
Dave I sent that philpott book yesterday, I sent it airmail and there is my address on the back, so you could send me a money order or postal note for ten pounds, if I had sent it by sea it would only have cost 5 pounds. I should have, but at least you get it quicker.
It's an autobiography, but there is a good chapter on the flipper and its history. There is also the sad story of how his test career ended.
Also he talks of his involvement in the t.v series "bodyline" where he played the part of Clarrie Grimmett!
Dropping the left shoulder goes back to the invention of the "bosie" where bosquanet literally stumbled on the delivery because the left side of his body collapsed into a deep rut on the wicket and this dropped his left shoulder and twisted his arm and wrist around and caused him to bowl an offspinner with a leg-break action. Or so one story goes , others say that he discovered it bowling on a beach in England somewhere. Grimmett read of this in New Zealand as a boy and went out on the Basin Reserve and came up with his own wrongun.
Dave I sent that philpott book yesterday, I sent it airmail and there is my address on the back, so you could send me a money order or postal note for ten pounds, if I had sent it by sea it would only have cost 5 pounds. I should have, but at least you get it quicker.
It's an autobiography, but there is a good chapter on the flipper and its history. There is also the sad story of how his test career ended.
Also he talks of his involvement in the t.v series "bodyline" where he played the part of Clarrie Grimmett!
Dropping the left shoulder goes back to the invention of the "bosie" where bosquanet literally stumbled on the delivery because the left side of his body collapsed into a deep rut on the wicket and this dropped his left shoulder and twisted his arm and wrist around and caused him to bowl an offspinner with a leg-break action. Or so one story goes , others say that he discovered it bowling on a beach in England somewhere. Grimmett read of this in New Zealand as a boy and went out on the Basin Reserve and came up with his own wrongun.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
That's interesting with regards the injury potential with the Flipper as my thumb suffered once I started using the Grimmett version, although I wasn't happy just to stick with the basic delivery and went for the variation Macca introduced us to via Grimmett (Once again) the forward spinning flipper obtained by rotating the wrist 180 degrees. Even now if I just sit here and turn my wrist the 180 degrees and make the movement without the ball in my hand I can feel that it's using muscles not normally used in both the wrist and the thumb, so I can sense that maybe there's more than a ring of truth in the advice never to bowl the flipper as a kid. Maybe I should go back to the youtube video and post up a H&S warning!!!?
That's interesting with regards the injury potential with the Flipper as my thumb suffered once I started using the Grimmett version, although I wasn't happy just to stick with the basic delivery and went for the variation Macca introduced us to via Grimmett (Once again) the forward spinning flipper obtained by rotating the wrist 180 degrees. Even now if I just sit here and turn my wrist the 180 degrees and make the movement without the ball in my hand I can feel that it's using muscles not normally used in both the wrist and the thumb, so I can sense that maybe there's more than a ring of truth in the advice never to bowl the flipper as a kid. Maybe I should go back to the youtube video and post up a H&S warning!!!?
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
Cheers Macca I'll sort out the money in some way and get it off to you - that's brilliant, cheers for doing that.
Cheers Macca I'll sort out the money in some way and get it off to you - that's brilliant, cheers for doing that.
The Edge Of Willow
Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
Coaching is an interesting issue. I really do think it is quite important; I mean I never had a constant leg break till I read the the "spin it back towards your self" trick on this site. Before that I could bowl an over-spun leg-break about half the time, the other half I would release to close to a top-spinner so they hardly turned. After reading the "spin it back towards yourself" advice I've hardly bowled any of those nasty almost top-spinners when attempting the leg-break. If I had someone to tell me that when I first started my bowling would probably be at least a year ahead of where it is now.
Of course being over-coached is very bad; I think that it is very unwise to do a lot a fiddling with natural actions, particularly at young ages, unless they are dangerous. The important thing is to get results. How that is achieved is rather irreverent.
I also think it is also important to keep in mind what the bowler seeks to be. If the bowler wants to become a orthodox leg-spinner who rips the ball like Warne, then he should be probably be coached as such. If the bowler is happy with bowling similar to Kumble, then there is not much point trying to coach him to be like Warne.
However, I do think that learning in an unstructured environment has an advantage. It allows you to learn the craft without the pressures of a match situation. Jenner has said a lot about how young spinners are often told bowl flat to contain the scoring, rather than being allowed toss it up to try and get wickets.
sadspinner;345712 said:
Coaching is an interesting issue. I really do think it is quite important; I mean I never had a constant leg break till I read the the "spin it back towards your self" trick on this site. Before that I could bowl an over-spun leg-break about half the time, the other half I would release to close to a top-spinner so they hardly turned. After reading the "spin it back towards yourself" advice I've hardly bowled any of those nasty almost top-spinners when attempting the leg-break. If I had someone to tell me that when I first started my bowling would probably be at least a year ahead of where it is now.
Of course being over-coached is very bad; I think that it is very unwise to do a lot a fiddling with natural actions, particularly at young ages, unless they are dangerous. The important thing is to get results. How that is achieved is rather irreverent.
I also think it is also important to keep in mind what the bowler seeks to be. If the bowler wants to become a orthodox leg-spinner who rips the ball like Warne, then he should be probably be coached as such. If the bowler is happy with bowling similar to Kumble, then there is not much point trying to coach him to be like Warne.
However, I do think that learning in an unstructured environment has an advantage. It allows you to learn the craft without the pressures of a match situation. Jenner has said a lot about how young spinners are often told bowl flat to contain the scoring, rather than being allowed toss it up to try and get wickets.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
Macca makes a good point about leaving the flipper and making sure as a youngster you concentrate on the basic grip and incorporate the 'Round the clock' theory first and foremost and endeavour to produce your back spinning slider via the Philpott route. I think I've learned more about the slider on here discussing it with you blokes than using any of the resources on-line. I think the way both Jenner and Warne describe it and just breeze over it with an air of indifference in both their on-line videos does the variation a grave injustice. I think Philpott and by the sounds of it Grimmett too go a lot further in emphasising the importance of having a back spinning variation and it's good to see this new kid on the thread here (Water Boy) is already on the case. I think this in itself goes to show that coaching wrist spin in Australia sounds as though far exceeds what happens here in the UK. Even at my own club with it's enthusiasm for spinners seems to lack the depth of knowledge to make people aware of the potential with wrist spin or perhaps they see that sticking to the basics is far more important?
Macca makes a good point about leaving the flipper and making sure as a youngster you concentrate on the basic grip and incorporate the 'Round the clock' theory first and foremost and endeavour to produce your back spinning slider via the Philpott route. I think I've learned more about the slider on here discussing it with you blokes than using any of the resources on-line. I think the way both Jenner and Warne describe it and just breeze over it with an air of indifference in both their on-line videos does the variation a grave injustice. I think Philpott and by the sounds of it Grimmett too go a lot further in emphasising the importance of having a back spinning variation and it's good to see this new kid on the thread here (Water Boy) is already on the case. I think this in itself goes to show that coaching wrist spin in Australia sounds as though far exceeds what happens here in the UK. Even at my own club with it's enthusiasm for spinners seems to lack the depth of knowledge to make people aware of the potential with wrist spin or perhaps they see that sticking to the basics is far more important?
macca
Active Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
Terry Jenner had a lot to do with the development of Adil Rashid from Yorkshire. He has coached him on and off since Rashid was 14. I was looking at some photos the other day of Jenner at his peak and remembering seeing him bowl a few times and he had a superb classical action, one of the best I have seen, he used to keep his front arm high right until the moment of delivery, and as he completed his delivery his bowling hand went down and across his body perfectly. He looks a lot like Warne in some shots, in fact more like Warne than any bowler I can think of.
Terry Jenner had a lot to do with the development of Adil Rashid from Yorkshire. He has coached him on and off since Rashid was 14. I was looking at some photos the other day of Jenner at his peak and remembering seeing him bowl a few times and he had a superb classical action, one of the best I have seen, he used to keep his front arm high right until the moment of delivery, and as he completed his delivery his bowling hand went down and across his body perfectly. He looks a lot like Warne in some shots, in fact more like Warne than any bowler I can think of.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
Macca I think your son when he's ready will probably pick up the Flipper easily if he's gettting the spin aspect right. The line and length comes with just a bit of practice - matter of hours given that we have the fore-knowledge that it is possible.
Whilst on the subject of Flippers - how on earth did this article ever see the light of day on cricinfo? Check out the last paragraph. http://usa.cricinfo.com/link_to_database/ABOUT_CRICKET/EXPLANATION/LEGSPIN_PHYSICS.html
Macca I think your son when he's ready will probably pick up the Flipper easily if he's gettting the spin aspect right. The line and length comes with just a bit of practice - matter of hours given that we have the fore-knowledge that it is possible.
Whilst on the subject of Flippers - how on earth did this article ever see the light of day on cricinfo? Check out the last paragraph. http://usa.cricinfo.com/link_to_database/ABOUT_CRICKET/EXPLANATION/LEGSPIN_PHYSICS.html
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
Sometimes I sit here and think why do I write so much on here and is anyone listening and is of any consequence - or have I just got OCD or something. But when I read this stuff -
"Coaching is an interesting issue. I really do think it is quite important; I mean I never had a constant leg break till I read the the "spin it back towards your self" trick on this site. Before that I could bowl an over-spun leg-break about half the time, the other half I would release to close to a top-spinner so they hardly turned. After reading the "spin it back towards yourself" advice I've hardly bowled any of those nasty almost top-spinners when attempting the leg-break. If I had someone to tell me that when I first started my bowling would probably be at least a year ahead of where it is now".
I feel as though it's all been worthwhile as I think that was one of the concepts that I brought to the forum if I remember rightly. Additionally when I did introduce the idea (Albeit via Philpott - I think?) there were a few people that suggested that I was talking out of my a**e. So it's good to read this.
Most of us on here understand the potential for spinning the ball back towards yourself and we'd always advocate it, but other than on here and in Philpotts book I've never come across it anywhere else, not even via Warne and Jenner.
Sometimes I sit here and think why do I write so much on here and is anyone listening and is of any consequence - or have I just got OCD or something. But when I read this stuff -
"Coaching is an interesting issue. I really do think it is quite important; I mean I never had a constant leg break till I read the the "spin it back towards your self" trick on this site. Before that I could bowl an over-spun leg-break about half the time, the other half I would release to close to a top-spinner so they hardly turned. After reading the "spin it back towards yourself" advice I've hardly bowled any of those nasty almost top-spinners when attempting the leg-break. If I had someone to tell me that when I first started my bowling would probably be at least a year ahead of where it is now".
I feel as though it's all been worthwhile as I think that was one of the concepts that I brought to the forum if I remember rightly. Additionally when I did introduce the idea (Albeit via Philpott - I think?) there were a few people that suggested that I was talking out of my a**e. So it's good to read this.
Most of us on here understand the potential for spinning the ball back towards yourself and we'd always advocate it, but other than on here and in Philpotts book I've never come across it anywhere else, not even via Warne and Jenner.
The Edge Of Willow
Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
Oh yes, that clanger; I read it a while back. I could hardly believe it.
Oh yes, that clanger; I read it a while back. I could hardly believe it.
The Edge Of Willow
Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
Yeah, I don't know why that piece of advice is never mentioned anywhere else.
It really was the catalyst for my leg-break. Perhaps it is thought to be confusing, which I can't really understand as I got it pretty much as soon as I read it; but then I guess different people learn differently.
Yeah, I don't know why that piece of advice is never mentioned anywhere else.
It really was the catalyst for my leg-break. Perhaps it is thought to be confusing, which I can't really understand as I got it pretty much as soon as I read it; but then I guess different people learn differently.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
I've had another day trying to get my leg break to turn bigger and I've had a fairly positive day see my main blog Wrist Spin Bowling: Frustration with the Leg Break but last night I was scrolling through loads of leg break/wrist spin pages on google and came across a description of a right arm Indian wrist spin bowler that was described as being a prolific wicket taker despite having a weak Leg break and that the majority of his wickets were taken with Wrong Uns. Now this sounds like my kind of bloke! Trouble is I didn't make a note of who it was - anyone got any ideas who it might be as I can't seem to find the same webpage?
I've had another day trying to get my leg break to turn bigger and I've had a fairly positive day see my main blog Wrist Spin Bowling: Frustration with the Leg Break but last night I was scrolling through loads of leg break/wrist spin pages on google and came across a description of a right arm Indian wrist spin bowler that was described as being a prolific wicket taker despite having a weak Leg break and that the majority of his wickets were taken with Wrong Uns. Now this sounds like my kind of bloke! Trouble is I didn't make a note of who it was - anyone got any ideas who it might be as I can't seem to find the same webpage?
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
Yeah definitely - it's a case of different things for different people. As the others have said earlier in the thread, if unorthodox methods work for you stick with them unless of course they might cause injury in the long run. I think a recent case in point is the fast bowler Jimmy Anderson. I was reading a few weeks back prior to the recent matches in the WI his coaches had given up on trying to rectify his weird and potentially damaging bowling action. I've got a picture on the wall next to the computer of him (Despite the fact that he's a fast bowler) because the picture is bizarre. He's caught at a point after releasing the ball & he's pictured almost bodily parrallel to the ground with his arms almost at his sides and he's looking out towards where Leg slip would be. See this picture http://d.yimg.com/ca.yimg.com/p/090310/afp/iphoto_1236724403776-3-0jpg.jpg my image has both his legs together without any dangling down.
Cricinfo - James Anderson goes airborne in his attempt to break through for England
This technique the coaches decided needed to be corrected if he was to play international cricket for England on a regular basis and for the last two years they've been trying to change his bowling action. The article then went on to say that just recently they'd scrapped that idea and were allowing him to revert back to his natural bowling style with which he took far more wickets.
All of which reinforces the argument for letting people develop their own techniques and ways of doing stuff. Who else has taken 4 wickets in succession in one over? I only know of the very unorthodox Malinga.
I think with our specialism you need some direction, but there's not a lot of it about. The team that my sons play for almost exclude spin bowling outright. There seems to be one kid that bowls finger spin and he's crap and there doesn't seem to be anyone in the club that's able to offer him any help and I've watched the poor kid in the nets and he's all over the place trying to figure out what it is that he needs to be doing. My own son was told not to grip the ball across the seam and it was only when I told him to ignore the bloke and bowl in his own way (Wrist spin) and he nearly got three wickets off 6 balls (2 drops and one useless wicket keeper) that the bloke back tracked and said to him "Listen to your Dad when it comes to your bowling son".
I think that once you have the basics you just need to self evaluate/assess and listen to the advice that people do offer you and then decide whether to act on it. There does seems to be a reluctance for people to offer advice at club level because it is such a dark art and they don't know what's involved. I think these forums and the resources that are here on-line are exceptionally helpful as long as you're prepared to try things and make decisins as to whether they're right for you.
Yeah definitely - it's a case of different things for different people. As the others have said earlier in the thread, if unorthodox methods work for you stick with them unless of course they might cause injury in the long run. I think a recent case in point is the fast bowler Jimmy Anderson. I was reading a few weeks back prior to the recent matches in the WI his coaches had given up on trying to rectify his weird and potentially damaging bowling action. I've got a picture on the wall next to the computer of him (Despite the fact that he's a fast bowler) because the picture is bizarre. He's caught at a point after releasing the ball & he's pictured almost bodily parrallel to the ground with his arms almost at his sides and he's looking out towards where Leg slip would be. See this picture http://d.yimg.com/ca.yimg.com/p/090310/afp/iphoto_1236724403776-3-0jpg.jpg my image has both his legs together without any dangling down.
Cricinfo - James Anderson goes airborne in his attempt to break through for England
This technique the coaches decided needed to be corrected if he was to play international cricket for England on a regular basis and for the last two years they've been trying to change his bowling action. The article then went on to say that just recently they'd scrapped that idea and were allowing him to revert back to his natural bowling style with which he took far more wickets.
All of which reinforces the argument for letting people develop their own techniques and ways of doing stuff. Who else has taken 4 wickets in succession in one over? I only know of the very unorthodox Malinga.
I think with our specialism you need some direction, but there's not a lot of it about. The team that my sons play for almost exclude spin bowling outright. There seems to be one kid that bowls finger spin and he's crap and there doesn't seem to be anyone in the club that's able to offer him any help and I've watched the poor kid in the nets and he's all over the place trying to figure out what it is that he needs to be doing. My own son was told not to grip the ball across the seam and it was only when I told him to ignore the bloke and bowl in his own way (Wrist spin) and he nearly got three wickets off 6 balls (2 drops and one useless wicket keeper) that the bloke back tracked and said to him "Listen to your Dad when it comes to your bowling son".
I think that once you have the basics you just need to self evaluate/assess and listen to the advice that people do offer you and then decide whether to act on it. There does seems to be a reluctance for people to offer advice at club level because it is such a dark art and they don't know what's involved. I think these forums and the resources that are here on-line are exceptionally helpful as long as you're prepared to try things and make decisins as to whether they're right for you.
sadspinner
Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
Must have been kumble(very small leg breaks, mainly topspinners+googlies+flippers at medium pace), he took 5 for 5 in the IPL today for pietersen's team today. Or else Chandrashekar, who had polio in the right hand and bowled at medium pace.
Must have been kumble(very small leg breaks, mainly topspinners+googlies+flippers at medium pace), he took 5 for 5 in the IPL today for pietersen's team today. Or else Chandrashekar, who had polio in the right hand and bowled at medium pace.
macca
Active Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
The use of backspin isn't mentioned elsewhere , because most online sources dont go into much detail. But this thread has allowed Philpotts loop theory, which is like e=mc2 for legspin bowlers to be learnt and understood especially if you read " the art of wrist spin" or one of his earlier coaching manuals.
Philpott was once employed by Mike Atherton to teach the England players the loop theory to try and counter Warne. If you understand the theory and how the various spins, (backspin, underspin, topspin, overspin, offspin, legspin) behave, then you are no longer in the dark, and leg-spin loses a lot of its mystery. It has always suited legspinners to overplay the " art" and intrigue involved in their craft, when in fact it is just another trade that can be learnt by almost anyone with the knowledge and the application to learn.
It used to be very much a guild where secrets where kept amongst legspinners and even carried to their graves! Colin Mc Cool never told anyone his backspinner, which was different again from everbody elses.
These days information is more widely shared, so it should be easier to coach young legspinners, but one thing that wont change is the amount of practise it takes to get any good.I am convinced Legspinners have to work harder than any other type of bowler to gain and maintain accuracy
The use of backspin isn't mentioned elsewhere , because most online sources dont go into much detail. But this thread has allowed Philpotts loop theory, which is like e=mc2 for legspin bowlers to be learnt and understood especially if you read " the art of wrist spin" or one of his earlier coaching manuals.
Philpott was once employed by Mike Atherton to teach the England players the loop theory to try and counter Warne. If you understand the theory and how the various spins, (backspin, underspin, topspin, overspin, offspin, legspin) behave, then you are no longer in the dark, and leg-spin loses a lot of its mystery. It has always suited legspinners to overplay the " art" and intrigue involved in their craft, when in fact it is just another trade that can be learnt by almost anyone with the knowledge and the application to learn.
It used to be very much a guild where secrets where kept amongst legspinners and even carried to their graves! Colin Mc Cool never told anyone his backspinner, which was different again from everbody elses.
These days information is more widely shared, so it should be easier to coach young legspinners, but one thing that wont change is the amount of practise it takes to get any good.I am convinced Legspinners have to work harder than any other type of bowler to gain and maintain accuracy
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
Yeah I think he's the man I knew you'd be the bloke with the answer, cheers Saddo.
Yeah I think he's the man I knew you'd be the bloke with the answer, cheers Saddo.
sadspinner
Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
I am not surprised that club coaches have no idea of leg spin.Today I heard an ex England test player commenting during the game pakistan vs australia. He called a fast leg break a flipper, even after having seen the replay.I am not surprised though as even we who are a bit obsessed on this thread, find it difficult to pick what some leg spinners bowl possibly as no 2 legspinners are the same, and have the same action.
I was happy to see the wickets taken by afridi for pakistan. He took 6 for about 38. The aussies had no clue. After the match asked why his improvement, he said that as Abdul Qadir is on the management/coaching team, he picked his brain and learnt a lot. He seems to have a very difficult googly to spot. He also seemed to throw in what looked like two orthodox off spinners with a the same run up of his leg spinners. I think he got 2 wickets with that.
Dave I wonder whether you could include the grips of grimmett and o'reilly on your website on legspin. I do not think there would be copyright problems as these are not being used for money making, but purely for educational reasons. I tried to find the Benaud grip,and the MacGill one with no luck though.
I am not surprised that club coaches have no idea of leg spin.Today I heard an ex England test player commenting during the game pakistan vs australia. He called a fast leg break a flipper, even after having seen the replay.I am not surprised though as even we who are a bit obsessed on this thread, find it difficult to pick what some leg spinners bowl possibly as no 2 legspinners are the same, and have the same action.
I was happy to see the wickets taken by afridi for pakistan. He took 6 for about 38. The aussies had no clue. After the match asked why his improvement, he said that as Abdul Qadir is on the management/coaching team, he picked his brain and learnt a lot. He seems to have a very difficult googly to spot. He also seemed to throw in what looked like two orthodox off spinners with a the same run up of his leg spinners. I think he got 2 wickets with that.
Dave I wonder whether you could include the grips of grimmett and o'reilly on your website on legspin. I do not think there would be copyright problems as these are not being used for money making, but purely for educational reasons. I tried to find the Benaud grip,and the MacGill one with no luck though.
Ripping-LegBreak
New Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
5 wickets for 5 runs? Wow... That's crazy.. How did he get the wickets?
5 wickets for 5 runs? Wow... That's crazy.. How did he get the wickets?
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
Just updated by main blog and have a really good session this evening......
Wrist Spin Bowling: 4 Days and counting
4 Days and counting
Whoa! A very good session with the Leg breaks! I had a day off from everything apart from exercise yesterday - 70 -80 press ups and more exercises specifically targeting the rotator cuff and shoulders. So tonight I was gagging to get out on a field and bowl. Our field was being used so I had to drive over to the Rec. Took a bucket of 36 balls and went through that 3 times, so that was the equivalent to 18 overs. I focussed primarily on the Leg break and right from the outset it came good and then continued pretty much the same through all 108 balls. Through the middle 36 I bowled some variations and then the last 36 I bowled leg breaks and every ball turned and did so in a way that I was happy with. Some of the them turned big, some turned just good/well, so this was an exceptionally good session. For the most part if I wanted them on the Leg stump that's where they were going and if they were needed on the Off stump I was able to put them there as well. All in all a very good session.
The only fly in the ointment seems to be whether I'll be selected and whether it'll rain or not as at the minute the weather is perfect, but it's scheduled to go down the pan through Saturday.
Just updated by main blog and have a really good session this evening......
Wrist Spin Bowling: 4 Days and counting
4 Days and counting
Whoa! A very good session with the Leg breaks! I had a day off from everything apart from exercise yesterday - 70 -80 press ups and more exercises specifically targeting the rotator cuff and shoulders. So tonight I was gagging to get out on a field and bowl. Our field was being used so I had to drive over to the Rec. Took a bucket of 36 balls and went through that 3 times, so that was the equivalent to 18 overs. I focussed primarily on the Leg break and right from the outset it came good and then continued pretty much the same through all 108 balls. Through the middle 36 I bowled some variations and then the last 36 I bowled leg breaks and every ball turned and did so in a way that I was happy with. Some of the them turned big, some turned just good/well, so this was an exceptionally good session. For the most part if I wanted them on the Leg stump that's where they were going and if they were needed on the Off stump I was able to put them there as well. All in all a very good session.
The only fly in the ointment seems to be whether I'll be selected and whether it'll rain or not as at the minute the weather is perfect, but it's scheduled to go down the pan through Saturday.
sadspinner
Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
One of kumble's five wickets was warne. Warne tried to charge him, kumble gave him a fast googly, beat him and warne was out stumped. Two where slog shots caught in the deep. I think the other was with a flipper and another with a googly.
Kumble resembles dave, has very good googlies(different grips), a topspinner and a very small leg break . All at close to near medium pace. Oh and he has a flipper too.
One of kumble's five wickets was warne. Warne tried to charge him, kumble gave him a fast googly, beat him and warne was out stumped. Two where slog shots caught in the deep. I think the other was with a flipper and another with a googly.
Kumble resembles dave, has very good googlies(different grips), a topspinner and a very small leg break . All at close to near medium pace. Oh and he has a flipper too.
sadspinner
Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
Philpott was once employed by Mike Atherton to teach the England players the loop theory to try and counter Warne
Very right, and I read an article by atherton who was explaining what he saw warne doing in an ashes match i think in 2005. He explained how warne magically went around the loop( even though I doubt warne used the big googly, which i have never seen on you tube. The only exception being the small googly to get rid of ganguly). By the way atherthon was a promising leg spinner but had to give up, as he had a bad back or stress fractures, so he had more than a passing interest in the subject.
Philpott was once employed by Mike Atherton to teach the England players the loop theory to try and counter Warne
Very right, and I read an article by atherton who was explaining what he saw warne doing in an ashes match i think in 2005. He explained how warne magically went around the loop( even though I doubt warne used the big googly, which i have never seen on you tube. The only exception being the small googly to get rid of ganguly). By the way atherthon was a promising leg spinner but had to give up, as he had a bad back or stress fractures, so he had more than a passing interest in the subject.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
That's cheered me up a lot - one of the big wrist spin legends and he only has a small leg break yet he's up there with the best. Yeah I like the comparison too, it sounds as though I bowl the same kind of stuff as this bloke and after last Thursday and the problems my fast Wrong Un caused my Wrong Uns are back in favour but only as a variation. I've had a much better today with my leg break, I've been very consistent with it and the amount of turn I'm getting off it is enough for me to be happy with it. Total control of it still alludes me and it fades in and out, but for the most part it spins off the wicket nicely varies in the amount of bounce it has, but I can bowl a good line and length, in fact today I was bowling it outside of Leg stump and it was coming back in on the stumps or going wide of off stump. What I'll have to do is get the camera over on the field when I go next and chuck down a bucket of balls with the camera pointed down the middle and uplaod it to you tube and let you blokes have a look and see if you reckon I'm doing enough with the leg break?
Just updated my main blog if you're interested - http://mpafirsteleven.blogspot.com/2009/04/7-days-to-go.html
That's cheered me up a lot - one of the big wrist spin legends and he only has a small leg break yet he's up there with the best. Yeah I like the comparison too, it sounds as though I bowl the same kind of stuff as this bloke and after last Thursday and the problems my fast Wrong Un caused my Wrong Uns are back in favour but only as a variation. I've had a much better today with my leg break, I've been very consistent with it and the amount of turn I'm getting off it is enough for me to be happy with it. Total control of it still alludes me and it fades in and out, but for the most part it spins off the wicket nicely varies in the amount of bounce it has, but I can bowl a good line and length, in fact today I was bowling it outside of Leg stump and it was coming back in on the stumps or going wide of off stump. What I'll have to do is get the camera over on the field when I go next and chuck down a bucket of balls with the camera pointed down the middle and uplaod it to you tube and let you blokes have a look and see if you reckon I'm doing enough with the leg break?
Just updated my main blog if you're interested - http://mpafirsteleven.blogspot.com/2009/04/7-days-to-go.html
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling
"Dave I wonder whether you could include the grips of grimmett and o'reilly on your website on legspin. I do not think there would be copyright problems as these are not being used for money making, but purely for educational reasons. I tried to find the Benaud grip,and the MacGill one with no luck though". (Sad Spinner).
Yeah - give us the links and I'll have a look at any of them and I'll put them in. What I'll probably do is copy them and get my son to photograph my hand with the grips and create a sense of continuity with the images - what do you reckon the that? The image you use for your Avatar is the Iverson Gleeson if I'm not mistaken now hijacked by the Sri Lankan?
"Dave I wonder whether you could include the grips of grimmett and o'reilly on your website on legspin. I do not think there would be copyright problems as these are not being used for money making, but purely for educational reasons. I tried to find the Benaud grip,and the MacGill one with no luck though". (Sad Spinner).
Yeah - give us the links and I'll have a look at any of them and I'll put them in. What I'll probably do is copy them and get my son to photograph my hand with the grips and create a sense of continuity with the images - what do you reckon the that? The image you use for your Avatar is the Iverson Gleeson if I'm not mistaken now hijacked by the Sri Lankan?
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