Wrist Spin Bowling

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Mallett says Grimmett was still trying to perfect his "wrong wrongun" on his backyard pitch aged 76 years old, he makes it sound like it was the last delivery he still had not perfected.

I reckon in your flipper you could have deadly weapon at your disposal that a lot of other bowlers who may have played the game longer dont possess. You may only need it plus an average leg-break to do lots off damage on your day. The backspin you generate on that youtube clip is more than enough.

Strewth! 76 I ache like an old Dingo as it is. It takes me about 10 minutes to get going in the morning, so God knows what I'd be like at 76! And that wrong wrong un if it's like my 'Gipper' that in itself for a bloke of 76 is some feat!

With regards my Flipper I always feel that when it's used as a faster ball, it's too straight and too much like a Medium pace ball to cause most people a problem. Lobbed up slow with a loopy flight I kind of feel that it's got some potential as I'm able to put more spin on it and as it comes down it almost stalls to a no ball because of the backspin and might catch an inexperienced batsman to make a mistake. If it was followed up several balls later with a similar ball but with top spin so that it then bounces and rushes on, that might catch them out as well? I'm going to try this in the nets on Friday and see how it works. I'll try faster Flippers with Leg breaks as well and see how that works as well.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yes . I know you talked of a "reverse flipper" somewhere here gundalf so it is not unknown. Warne did it a few times I am sure. I remember reading somewhere how it is similar to how some olden days offspinners delivered the ball

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Never in a game, I used the backspinner like Philpott describes, that is the classic Australian backspinner I reckon.

In fact I bowled it the other day just as good as Jenner in that clip yet I haven't bowled it for years. I never had the control to deliver the flipper and gave up on it.

Philpotts backspinner sounds like a very difficult ball. Again I've never seen anyone here bowl anything like that. I don't think I've ever seen a right arm wrist spinner at club level bowl wrong uns even and whenever I do people seem to be surprised. The ball of choice at club level other than the Leg Break is the Top-Spinner, but then they may even be faking that - it maybe their Leg breaks that don't turn!

 

[gundalf7]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

it is interesting to see how obsessed grimmett got over his bowling, i doubt many retiring players today even consider picking up a ball regularly once they are 50+. Yeah I do bowl a sort of reverse flipper that has the same sort of effect and keeps low like a flipper but is quicker off the surface like a toppie, though I just bowl it like a flipper with the same grip but just click my fingers in the opposite direction to normal. Its useful-ish as a surprise ball after alot of leg breaks.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

It is a little bit hard at first and feels a bit like rubbing your tummy and patting your head or whatever that thing is that you are not supposed to be able to do.

But practise hand to hand , against the wall etc and build up and you will get it and then it seems easy, like the legbreak itself. I like to get my thumb and little finger out of the way for the grip a bit more than usual other than that it is only a legbreak rotated 90 degrees more.

But you would not really need it cause you have a backspinner, but the best thing about the topspinning backspinner, as Philpott calls it, is if it comes out wrong you usually get a big leg-break albeit slowturning.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

You have to wonder why he kept going untill ,they reckon, well into his 80,s.
Did you work out the reverse flipper or did someone show you gundalf, it is like Dave discovering the gipper by himself, Mallett says that Grimmett saw great potential for the gipper ( ''wrong wrogun" he called it ) right until the end of his life and could still bowl it in his 80,s !

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

In his bio of Grimmett, former Australian test off-spinner Ashley Mallett, who was a student of Grimmetts, talks a bit about the flipper, but he is referring to the backspinning one that is famous today, but Grimmett makes it clear he preferred to deliver his finger clicking spin as the topspinner which is roughly upside down to the "flipper" and would be harder to disguise but not much harder than the backspinner which has a similar wrist positon at delivery. But it still seems to be more an offspinners ball.

He preferred topspin because he was looking to pick up pace rather than lose it off the wicket. He gives a brief description of the modern flipper but sees it as a change of pace ball to be delivered very rarely in the hope of a popped up catch whereas the topspinning one he devotes a chapter to and nominates this as his mystery ball and the one likely to bowl or lbw the batsmen.

I have emailed Mr Mallett a question on the subject and if I get an answer I will post it.[/QUOTE]

Well almost unbelievably, Ashley Mallett ,one of Australias' best ever offspin bowlers and the writer of over two dozen books on cricket, a man who was coached by Grimmett and knew Bradman well and interviewed him often, has answered my email !

But he misunderstood my question so I have had to make my self clearer to him in another email so I hope he doesn't think I am a nuisance. The gist of the question as explained above is which one was Grimmetts " mystery ball" the backspinning flipper or the topspinning, or more correctly perhaps ,overspinning one. He definately nominates the latter as his preferred way of delivering his "finger-clicking" spin.

 

[gundalf7]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

nah it was complete accident really, i remember hearing somewhere when I started leg spin that a flipper was like clicking your fingers and for a long while I thought what I was bowling was the flipper as it behaved similarish lol, but it turned out i'd been clicking my fingers the wrong direction, it got my first wickets with leg spin for my club and uni last year both bowled so it is pretty effective. Its been ages since i've really bowled it as my arm ball seems to have taken the place of a quicker ball at the mo.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

So what would the be the Key benefit of this delivery over the usual top-spinner? Just the fact that it's not so obvious and coming out of the hand and it looks like Slider and would be read as a ball that was going to skid in rather than bounce up and increase in speed?

Have there ever been any Medium pace bowlers that have used the Flipper as a surprise ball do you know (The back spinning type)?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Macca, it sounds as though you're attaching a lot of Merit to this back-spinning Top-Spinner? It's as though you suspect it's a ball worth pursuing?

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

So what would the be the Key benefit of this delivery over the usual top-spinner? Just the fact that it's not so obvious and coming out of the hand and it looks like Slider and would be read as a ball that was going to skid in rather than bounce up and increase in speed?

Have there ever been any Medium pace bowlers that have used the Flipper as a surprise ball do you know (The back spinning type)?

I dont know, lower and faster maybe ? People commented on Grimmetts' "vicous" topspinner, perhaps that is how he got it, but I think they descibed it like that before he began using the flipper. I dont Know if any medium pacers have used a flipper, that would be worth knowing.

Mallett wrote me a slightly patronising note on how to bowl the flipper and describing how Grimmett bowled his topspinner but I told him I knew that but was asking about plate 14 and chapter 9 of his 1948 book and how Grimmetts clearly stated his preference to bowl his flipper as the topspinner mostly and his brief mention of the modern flipper and he only sees it as a rare change of pace ball.

He may go and look up the book and make the same discovery and get back to me or he might think I am some idiot as he seems to think Grimmetts' mystery ball was only the backspinner.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Macca, it sounds as though you're attaching a lot of Merit to this back-spinning Top-Spinner? It's as though you suspect it's a ball worth pursuing?

that is the question I put to Ashley Mallett , is this ball worth pursuing ? Grimmett thought so, but I have few theories what happened, but I cant be sure yet and it would only be speculation.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I originally got interested in Grimmett when I found out he was a signwriter by trade like me.

He was also a keen photographer, still and movies, he had is own darkroom, and made good money screening his homemade movies. His son, who flew Lancasters over Germany during the war and won the DFC, went on to become one of Australias best commercial photographers, his photos of the Beatles in Adelaide in 1964 are superb.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

You're wetting my appetite for this ball with your recent posts. I have tried it, I spent 1/2 an hour messing around with it a few weeks back. I got the Top-Spin and it turned like an off-spinner. The line was difficult, but getting the distance didn't seem a problem. Maybe I'll re-visit it again? In the short term though I'm more interested in looking at the nuances of different combinations of finger use with the back-spinning Flipper.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

This is part of what Ashley Mallett wrote me.... " To bowl a flipper you need to hold the ball between your thumb and third and fourth fingers.(?) best way I can describe how to bowl a flipper is snap your fingers, as you might to attract attention. When there is a ball in your hand and you snap your fingers you produce the flipper. The ball is spun backwards. Try it. The way to learn to bowl the flipper is to spin from hand to hand. If you keep your bowling arm straight and then flip the ball. Gradually you get the knack and increase energy on the ball. Hope this helps. Best regards. Ashley Mallett."

Well he was an offspinner after all, one of Australias best ever, but I thought that description might help someone learning how to bowl a flipper, as many description as possible can only help. I still cant believe he answered me within 12 hours of my email.

 

[Ripping-LegBreak]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Hi guys, remember i posted last week that my legbreaks weren't turning i think i know why, today i got someone to analyse my bowling and they said the seam was rotating straight, this confused me because i have never ever attempted to bowl a topspinner so how could my legbreaks be turning into toppies?

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

This is part of what Ashley Mallett wrote me.... " To bowl a flipper you need to hold the ball between your thumb and third and fourth fingers.(?) best way I can describe how to bowl a flipper is snap your fingers, as you might to attract attention. When there is a ball in your hand and you snap your fingers you produce the flipper. The ball is spun backwards. Try it. The way to learn to bowl the flipper is to spin from hand to hand. If you keep your bowling arm straight and then flip the ball. Gradually you get the knack and increase energy on the ball. Hope this helps. Best regards. Ashley Mallett."

Flipper with the third and fourth fingers? Maybe he considers that the thumb is the first finger? You still can get backspin with thumb, middle and ring finger. Strange though that one of the top world offspinners and student of grimmett explains it so. The ones we know are those in the you tube clip by dave. The thumb, together with index and middle finger ar the thumb withindex, middle, ring with or without the small finger as the picture I had posted of Kaneria.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Your wrist has moved round or maybe it's not coming of your 3rd finger with any fizz? Do you give it a big flick with the wrist or is yours more of a drag off the 3rd finger leg break?

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I originally got interested in Grimmett when I found out he was a signwriter by trade like me.

Yes, when seeing your work and seeing how much into grimmett you where I wondered whether it was a coincidence. Do not tell me you use a cap to bowl, have a dog to retrieve your balls and are originally from New Zealand too!

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

You're wetting my appetite for this ball with your recent posts. I have tried it, I spent 1/2 an hour messing around with it a few weeks back. I got the Top-Spin and it turned like an off-spinner. The line was difficult, but getting the distance didn't seem a problem. Maybe I'll re-visit it again? In the short term though I'm more interested in looking at the nuances of different combinations of finger use with the back-spinning Flipper.

Bad move this - I've been giving this a go tonight and now have knackered a muscle in my forearm!

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Philpotts backspinner sounds like a very difficult ball. Again I've never seen anyone here bowl anything like that. I don't think I've ever seen a right arm wrist spinner at club level bowl wrong uns even and whenever I do people seem to be surprised. The ball of choice at club level other than the Leg Break is the Top-Spinner, but then they may even be faking that - it maybe their Leg breaks that don't turn!

I have never seen any clips of the backspinner on the net either, which may be because i did not notice it myself. The only clip is that by jenner.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Macca, it sounds as though you're attaching a lot of Merit to this back-spinning Top-Spinner? It's as though you suspect it's a ball worth pursuing?

I have not been following for the last few days. I have no idea what this is all about. Are you referring to something like jenners slider here, or is it as though you are bowling the slider ie with the pinky pointing at the batsmen but instead of backspinning(like the slider), you like bowl a flipper towards yourself while bowling it forward? Sounds confusing.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

It is a little bit hard at first and feels a bit like rubbing your tummy and patting your head or whatever that thing is that you are not supposed to be able to do.

But practise hand to hand , against the wall etc and build up and you will get it and then it seems easy, like the legbreak itself. I like to get my thumb and little finger out of the way for the grip a bit more than usual other than that it is only a legbreak rotated 90 degrees more.

But you would not really need it cause you have a backspinner, but the best thing about the topspinning backspinner, as Philpott calls it, is if it comes out wrong you usually get a big leg-break albeit slowturning.

I find it difficult to grip it without the thumb and small finger. Tried it today with little finger and thumb over about 15 yards. It went straightish, but did not have much backspin, but kept low. Not as much zip on bouncing as the flipper for me.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

No this is the flipper with the hand turned inwards so you flip it towards yourself thus giving it top-spin.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

In his bio of Grimmett, former Australian test off-spinner Ashley Mallett, who was a student of Grimmetts, talks a bit about the flipper, but he is referring to the backspinning one that is famous today, but Grimmett makes it clear he preferred to deliver his finger clicking spin as the topspinner which is roughly upside down to the "flipper" and would be harder to disguise but not much harder than the backspinner which has a similar wrist positon at delivery. But it still seems to be more an offspinners ball.

He preferred topspin because he was looking to pick up pace rather than lose it off the wicket. He gives a brief description of the modern flipper but sees it as a change of pace ball to be delivered very rarely in the hope of a popped up catch whereas the topspinning one he devotes a chapter to and nominates this as his mystery ball and the one likely to bowl or lbw the batsmen.

I have emailed Mr Mallett a question on the subject and if I get an answer I will post it.[/QUOTE]

Well almost unbelievably, Ashley Mallett ,one of Australias' best ever offspin bowlers and the writer of over two dozen books on cricket, a man who was coached by Grimmett and knew Bradman well and interviewed him often, has answered my email !

But he misunderstood my question so I have had to make my self clearer to him in another email so I hope he doesn't think I am a nuisance. The gist of the question as explained above is which one was Grimmetts " mystery ball" the backspinning flipper or the topspinning, or more correctly perhaps ,overspinning one. He definately nominates the latter as his preferred way of delivering his "finger-clicking" spin.

I have not been following your discussion over the last few days. The topspinning backspinner sounds like a contradiction. I know philpott quotes his and benauds as such but i think this is wrong as it gives the idea that the ball has both backspin and topspin, which obviously is impossible as the revs on the ball have to be clockwise and anticlocwise at the same time....that would really be a mystery ball, or maybe I am missing something here.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

No this is the flipper with the hand turned inwards so you flip it towards yourself thus giving it top-spin.

What is the use though? The actual topspinner will have more topspin, as all the energy in the ball is directed forwards towards the batsman. On the other hand this ball seems to have you bowling a flipper towards yourself, while bowling it forward, so there is loss of forward momentum, I presume it will be slower in the air but will be slower, and I also suspect that there will be an element of offspin. But these are presumptions, and i will need to do it on the field of battle to confirm.

So, the advantages of this would be that the batsman will not read it as a topspinner, and a possible element of offspin( a pseudo wrong one). The disatvantages would be, slower in the air and more risk of bowling on the wrong line/length/wide. Or am I wrong?

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

My son has picked up a bad habit from indoor cricket. He no longer is following through fully but rather stops and props straight after delivery to get ready to field the ball especially looking for the c & b. I only noticed after batting against him on saturday in the nets and he had lost all his nip off the wicket, it seems to have developed only this last week.

This is the first video analysis I have done of his bowling YouTube - no follow through, and it is just taken with my phone, but I will reshoot him in a couple of weeks after we work on his follow through and hopefully we will see a big difference.

He is a bit upset at me because I am in the keepers position shaking my head and signaling not enough run-up, he is actually slightly decelerating at the end of his run-up which has to be remedied. Lucky his old man is on the job.

Very impressive Macca for someone his age. Does he consistently bowl that line and length? Well done. Would that be his norma l leg break or the biggish one?

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Just to go to basics , as these variations are making my head and not ball spin, would I be right in stating:

Leg break: Back of hand faces the face on delivery for the small leg break.

Topspinner: Back of the hand faces the sky and eventually faces the batsman

Googly: Back of the hand faces the sky and eventually the ground.


Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Mallett says Grimmett was still trying to perfect his "wrong wrongun" on his backyard pitch aged 76 years old, he makes it sound like it was the last delivery he still had not perfected.

I reckon in your flipper you could have deadly weapon at your disposal that a lot of other bowlers who may have played the game longer dont possess. You may only need it plus an average leg-break to do lots off damage on your day. The backspin you generate on that youtube clip is more than enough.

He definitely had OCD or obsessive compulsive disorder.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah some of that. It has off-spin attributes but possibly the key thing is that it doesn't look like a top-spinner. A top spinner is a pretty obvious ball and I reckon if anything the back-spinning Flipper may look like a Slider so if you're trying to read it you may expect that because it's coming out of the back of the hand it's going to be back-spinning and skid in low whereas it potentially dips and then jumps up and on to you?

But I'm not pursuing it certainly not this season as both times I've tried it I've injured myself.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yes I think Mr Malletts finger numberings were a little confusing. In the Jenner Video where he is in the outside nets, at Adelaide I think , he does something similar when he descibes a grip at one stage.

Philpott also talks about when he and Johnny Martin ( left arm unorthodox) were both bowling in the same team they would both notice that when they were really spinning it they could see the ball really spinning out of their "little" finger, I have wondered in that case does he mean ring finger or pinky, but I think I know the feeling he talks about and though the fourth finger isn't the spinning finger sometimes it sticks out like the proper way to drink tea from a cup, if you know what mean, the wrongun definately feels like the fourth finger is in play a bit even though the 3rd finger is still the spinner. Yes " backspinning topspinner" is too confusing as a description, we know what it means but the term is nonesense really.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Just to go to basics , as these variations are making my head and not ball spin, would I be right in stating:

Leg break: Back of hand faces the face on delivery for the small leg break.

Topspinner: Back of the hand faces the sky and eventually faces the batsman

Googly: Back of the hand faces the sky and eventually the ground.


Correct me if I am wrong.

Yep apart from - Top-spinner, back of the hand faces you and your thumb points forward at the batsman.

But your right this is all getting very complex. But I think it's dead interesting and I can't believe that there's not more information on all these subtleties to wrist spinning. The potential for variations is seemingly vast the only issue is how much life have you got to experiment with them all! I'm seriously thinking about writing a book on the subject as there isn't such a thing other than Philpotts. Today at work I was talking to one of the Publishing course lecturers and she was showing me the students 'Final Major Project' work. They have to write and make a book and they get a book company to make them a short runs of books. So a 50 page book you can have about 10 copies made for 25 quid. I asked her if you were to do this, would the book then be a good vehicle with which to approach publishing companies with a view to printing the book on a commercial scale and she said yes. She used to be a big name in the group Random House and she said that she'd help me write it and get it together. So that's something to think about?

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

One thing Mallett proves in his book conclusively is that statistically Clarrie Grimmett has far superior record to Shane Warne. In fact if 5 wicket hauls = tons than Grimmetts record is about the same as Bradmans!

You could describe it as OCD Saddo, his neighbours did but didn't use that term, but no-one in history would have bowled as many cricket balls as Grimmett for nearly 80 years he kept it up, a wet ball was never a problem for him in a match because he practised even when it was raining never stopping, he also had to hold down a full time job.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Saddo, I just emailed you plate 14. I thought I had but a bit mustn't have got through .I am going to reformat it to a smaller file so i well send it all then. Grimmett wanted a topspinner that did not bounce too much, he always had the umpires in his pocket, they were as mesmerised as any one else with his bowling, but untill he came along legspinners rarely got lbw.

He sees this ball as fitting into one of his main maxims; that a legspinner should gain or appear to gain pace, (because he states it is scientically impossible to do so) off the wicket most of the time, except as a rare variation and he means by that about none for two hundred and something.

The modern flipper to him doesn't, it cant with backspin, and he used that flipper rarely more as a change of pace ball along with another"slider" he describes on page 50. You would have to be observant to work out his flipper from his description, but it is obvious to modern eyes.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

This is part of what Ashley Mallett wrote me.... " To bowl a flipper you need to hold the ball between your thumb and third and fourth fingers.(?) best way I can describe how to bowl a flipper is snap your fingers, as you might to attract attention. When there is a ball in your hand and you snap your fingers you produce the flipper. The ball is spun backwards. Try it. The way to learn to bowl the flipper is to spin from hand to hand. If you keep your bowling arm straight and then flip the ball. Gradually you get the knack and increase energy on the ball. Hope this helps. Best regards. Ashley Mallett."

Flipper with the third and fourth fingers? Maybe he considers that the thumb is the first finger? You still can get backspin with thumb, middle and ring finger. Strange though that one of the top world offspinners and student of grimmett explains it so. The ones we know are those in the you tube clip by dave. The thumb, together with index and middle finger ar the thumb withindex, middle, ring with or without the small finger as the picture I had posted of Kaneria.

I reckon you can use a number of combinations with the fingers. The Warnesque technique with the thumb and middle finger - I'm finding (This is all recent observations because of the face that I'm able to compare it with the Grimmett version) doesn't swing like the The Grimmett version and tends in my case to be more accurate. The Grimmett version which uses all 4 fingers and the thumb swings massively - I'm beginning to think that this version is pacier because with the 4 fingers on the ball you're able to actually bowl it faster because you're gripping it in a more solid manner and it's the pace that's helping with the *swing. But sitting here with a ball in my hand I've now christened a new Flipper the "2 fingered Ashley Mallett Flipper" because it's obvious that you could easily lift the index finger off the ball and use the Middle and ring finger ony and similarly you could then add the little finger to create a 3 fingered Flipper. I doubt if these small changes would have any real benefit over the 2 versions in my video - but then you never know till you give 'em a go and I reckon I will.

*Swing. I was talking to a bloke at work today and he was agreeing with me with regards the fact that atmospherics caused by the close proximity of the trees and the over-cast clouds would affect the swing I get. He was also of the opinion that it was the dampness/humidity caused by over-cast clouds that was a factor to be included and this rings true because as the sun lowers on this particular field the dew levels and the humidity is much higher for some reason, hence the big swing?

 

[Ripping-LegBreak]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Recently i've tried to get my third finger to drag the ball but generally i've always been a bowler who flicked their wrist. I always concentrate on my palm facing the batsmen but i just don't understand why i could get it wrong if i havn't practiced the toppie. I feel the ball flicking off the thirdfinger with the wrist slightly cocked inwards and i concentrate on completing a circular motion, maybe my hand might be going over the ball instead of around it because i feel i'm flicking my wrist forward as opposed to flicking it to the side, so it starts of with a legbreak position and it just finishes rotating forward accidently.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

This is getting very esoteric!!!

I considered sign writing as a profession for a while, did a few signs and vans.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I have not heard back from Ashley Mallett yet, I will give him till this afternoon. Then I will email my theory in detail, and if I dont hear back I will go to the Society of Cricket Historians, or another writer or journalist.

Chapter 12 of Malletts books is required reading for the legspinner,even though he was an offie he was coached by Grimmett and knows what things he emphasised in his method. For instance Grimmett used change of pace constantly and continuously, no two balls were the same pace, except on purpose.

 

[shuey_cricket]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

update of me
i have wrist tendonitis
so i will be out for a while
injury not from cricket i think

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Saddo, I just emailed you plate 14. I thought I had but a bit mustn't have got through .I am going to reformat it to a smaller file so i well send it all then. Grimmett wanted a topspinner that did not bounce too much, he always had the umpires in his pocket, they were as mesmerised as any one else with his bowling, but untill he came along legspinners rarely got lbw.

He sees this ball as fitting into one of his main maxims; that a legspinner should gain or appear to gain pace, (because he states it is scientically impossible to do so) off the wicket most of the time, except as a rare variation and he means by that about none for two hundred and something.

The modern flipper to him doesn't, it cant with backspin, and he used that flipper rarely more as a change of pace ball along with another"slider" he describes on page 50. You would have to be observant to work out his flipper from his description, but it is obvious to modern eyes.

Thank you got the plate never saw this bowled before. I was under the impression that he mainly bowled the flipper like jenner, even from those stories of clicking his other hand while bowling the leggie, or the story that the don taunted him by telling him that he only knew how to bowl the flipper.

Did you try to bowl it yourself and if yes it it difficult to bowl, and is it slower in the air than the leg break? Also does it have an element of offspin?