Wrist Spin Bowling

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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Where are you finding these books? I think we've started a run on the 'Getting Wickets' books because all the places on-line that did have 'em have sold 'em all recently and it looks like I'm going to have trouble getting hold of a copy now!

With regards my arm, I've told my team that I'm unavailable for the this weekend, but I seem to be getting offers from all over the place to bowl in the nets and have a knock about with people and I can't! I went over the field this evening and had bat with the boys and kept wicket, but threw everything underarm or with my left arm. So that's 2 days now without a bowl which is gutting as a crew of 16 year olds have started to join us on the field and two of them can bowl and bat and I can't bowl against them!

So without any prospect of a bowl I can't try EOW's follow through either and I can't find any good footage of others follow through although the Beau Casson clip shows his footwork and so must the BBC/Jenner clip? I'm going to have a look.


Just looked at Jenner 2.06; 2.50; 3.00 minutes into the video he's clearly seen from the bats end of the stumps bring his feet round a perfect 180 in line with the direction of flight
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I think there must be some conspiracy; we are all getting injured at once: I was kicking a football around two days ago and sprained the middle finger on my bowling hand.

The updated leg-break page looks okay, we should perhaps add something on the pivot at some stage, but the stuff on the wrist flick looks fine.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;349623 said:
Where are you finding these books? I think we've started a run on the 'Getting Wickets' books because all the places on-line that did have 'em have sold 'em all recently and it looks like I'm going to have trouble getting hold of a copy now!
.
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I thought macca had read that and another book by grimmett and was not too impressed, but i may be wrong.I was just looking around the net to tell myou the truth. Found a site but forgot to bookmark it. There was a flicker book on grimmett bowling a googly. He seemed to be throwing a discus rather than bowling on the photo i saw. I wiil have to look for the site again . If I find it, I will try to pass you the link, but i think he only had grimmett on cricket. He had the books by peebles and hollies(the one that bowled bradman with a googly in his last test match), and i think one on o'reilly, and another on 20 spinners by people that saw them play.pinners like grimmett, o'reilly, verity etc
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Something you may be interested in. Just found Terry Jenner's blog.

Terry Jenner - "The Spin Doctor"

Might be some interesting reading there. You can email him as well.

He is also undergoing some coaching clinics in London.

My July/August trip to the UK to condust coaching clinics is on again.
I am planning at least three seperate clinics on the following dates;
July 27-29....August 3-5....August 10-12.
At this time it seems probable the July 27-29 clinics will be at Chigwell School while the 3-5 Aug will be held in Leeds. I am still seeking a venue for Aug 10-12 but it is likely to be somewhere not too far out of London.
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Happy reading. :)
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

yeah i'm not sure if it should be 180 degree rotation or not as some leggies seems to do more.

I had to turn down a uni game today to due to having to work and partially have injured my shoulder, my rotator cuff I think so bowling probablly isn't a good idea anyway.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The Edge Of Willow;349673 said:
I think there must be some conspiracy; we are all getting injured at once: I was kicking a football around two days ago and sprained the middle finger on my bowling hand.
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You shuld not be kicking the ball with your hand EOW, shame on you.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;349623 So without any prospect of a bowl I can't try EOW's follow through either and I can't find any good footage of others follow through although the Beau Casson clip shows his footwork and so must the BBC/Jenner clip? I'm going to have a look. Just looked at Jenner 2.06; 2.50; 3.00 minutes into the video he's clearly seen from the bats end of the stumps bring his feet round a perfect 180 in line with the direction of flight[/QUOTE said:
Ok thanks. I know they say the bowling shoulder should face the batsman at the end of the delivery, but never really noticed the front leg to the right of the back leg.
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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;349670 said:
Macca, Saddo, Gundalf, EOW and anyone else that wants to chip in. Can you have a look at the updated Leg Break page on my legspin blog to see if I'm talking nonesense please?

Dave

Legspin bowling: The Legbreak
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Shaping up nicely. As you say, having small clips demonstrating what you explain in the text will really embellish the site. I know you are working on it, but well done for what you have achieved till now


Even pictures will enhance what your text says. I am sure this sounds obvious to you, but i just wanted to point it out. Oh and maybe send them as an attachment to jenner or philpott for comment. Be careful about the copyright though, after all that hard work.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

gundalf7;349628 said:
yeah i'm not sure if it should be 180 degree rotation or not as some leggies seems to do more.

I had to turn down a uni game today to due to having to work and partially have injured my shoulder, my rotator cuff I think so bowling probablly isn't a good idea anyway.
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Too bad there seems to be a curse on the leggies. You two have upper body issues, mine are further south.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;349755 said:
You shuld not be kicking the ball with your hand EOW, shame on you.
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Heh, I should of specified: it was aussie rules. I went up for a mark, misjudged it slightly and the ball took the top of my fingers, bending them the wrong way. It must have really caught the middle finger; all my other fingers are fine.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

gundalf7;349628 said:
yeah i'm not sure if it should be 180 degree rotation or not as some leggies seems to do more.

I had to turn down a uni game today to due to having to work and partially have injured my shoulder, my rotator cuff I think so bowling probablly isn't a good idea anyway.
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Yeah I would if I was you. You're young so you'll recover pretty fast.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The Edge Of Willow;349759 said:
Heh, I should of specified: it was aussie rules. I went up for a mark, misjudged it slightly and the ball took the top of my fingers, bending them the wrong way. It must have really caught the middle finger; all my other fingers are fine.
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You fooled me there. It happened to me once when playing basketball. Got really swollen. Had damaged my ligaments. Took a few weeks to clear. There really must be a curse though. Hope macca doesn't strain some sinew, as he seems the only one to be in ship shape form. Lets hope he does not get one of his classic grimmett books fall on his toes.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;349633 said:
What's your problem - Knees?
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Yep had them for a few months, but still go out for a jog three times a week. But even though it is not fast bowling the pressure on the left knee during the pivot can be quite painful. Well thats old age for you.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

He hasn't posted recently - maybe he's laid up in bed with something serious! Anyway I had a bloke email me with this question and hopefully he'll join in with the comments soon, maybe let us know how he's getting on? Here's what he's asked me......

"hi and i am a newbie here so i thought i contact u first coz couldn't post any threads I wanted to ask u how to correct the googly syndrome b'coz i really want my legbreak back plss help.I even watched videos of terry Jenner teaching the variations but still no leg break.but i do get leg break sometimes but not the way i used to get them huge turns.

This is my second BIG problem.i started performing for my club and i played 5 matches and used to 3 wickets per match,this was my first performance after practicing
for 1 year and i was really appreciated and even got best bowler title in a tournament.
then after that i played another tournament and there it was my worst performance no proper line and length all short balls or full toss flighted balls with absolutely no turn.I couldn't just understand myself after such a good performance how could bowl so badly with no turn at all.

I really want to bowl with line,length and flight
plssssss help and also abt the syndrome"

The question has been asked by "Leg spin is my life".

One thing I think we need to ask is how old he is as there's that thing that relates to younger blokes having big growth spurts in between seasons and losing their leg break partly because of it. If it's got no connection with that then we must assume that he's bowling the wrong un (Googly) too much?

In which case there's a few key things as recommended by Peter Philpott in his book 'The Art of Wrist Spin' and a few things that I picked up in my recovery action plan.

1. Stop bowling Googlies (Completely).
2. Get ready for this possibly taking a long time (Took me 8-9 months).
3. Go right back to basics and start to throw the ball from hand to hand across your body really trying to give it a big flick (I really need to make the video and upload it to you tube don't I)?
4. Also with the arm extended out in front of you spin the ball back in towards your chest giving it a big flick.
5. Do this all the time - use balls of all types and sizes, fruit, cubes anything just spin it and get the flick off your 3rd finger going again.
6. Now I reckon this next stage is the key to recovery. Don't intentionally bowl any more Googlies, just for the moment be content to bowl the ball straight. When you practice do so with meaning, don't allow yourself to be distracted and focus 100% on bowling the ball straight with the palm of your hand and the under-side of your wrist facing the batsman on release. I found this incredibly difficult when I started out because all my muscle memory wanted to do was upturn the wrist anti-clockwise and dip the shoulder in order to bowl the googly. You have to be fully focused on not letting this happen.
7. Bowl straight balls for as long as it takes to get them straight, it may feel like you're almost bowling with your wrist turned so that you're almost bowling with a Karate chop action - if this works in order to get the ball straight bowl like it.
8. Bowling the straight ball (I did all this without cocking my wrist at the start) try and get the ball to leave the hand off the 3rd and 4th finger and hopefully this will start to produce a small leg break.
9. Bowl like that for a few weeks maybe even months until you feel comfortable. In the meantime you've been flicking the ball all the time from hand to hand.
10. Introduce the cocked wrist and unfurl the cocked wrist at the last second releasing the ball with the hand in the 'Traffic cop pose' palm and under-wrist facing the bat. You should then start to get the Leg break back.
11. Then start to work on the big flick.

It might take some months and you'll have to be patient. You're advised to buy Philpotts book and read the 8 Stages section. There are loads of ideas relating to flicking the ball up against a wall and observing the way it spins off the wall. Philpott says to spin the ball under-arm as much as over-arm in order to see how the ball spins.

Good luck!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

First of all welcome to the website. As a person with experitse in long hops and wides, I would be wary of giving advice.

Many of the points above, will help you to recover the leg break if you already bowl that. Some keys are similar to the above.

1) Stop bowling googlies altogether.
2) Start from hand to hand, and hand in front of you and spin it back to you. This gives you the feel of how the seam appears and how to flick the ball.(if you made the ball break a lot before it means you have the most important thing, the ability to spin)
3) Proceed to under arm bowling, and check that your seam position is good. You will also see the ball break from leg to off. Start over small distances.
4) Proceed to round arm.Here too start with small distances. Do not be worried about line and length. Just spin it and look at the seam. What I did once was I painted the seam white to be able to see better its position.
5) Next up will be the over arm. Again short distances and ignore line and length.For confidence avoid unresponsive surfaces. This is not cheating, but rather a way to gain confidence that you are doing the right thing.
6) Add the run up that must be RHYTHMICAL. Rhythm is the key at this stage as everything follows from this.
7) Go and get a five for and when you get the big leg break come back to us and teach it to us.

Be careful with the Karate chop and cop sign. I am dense and have still not understood it despite the patient explanation of the fellow forumites.

Film yourself bowl. You will be surprised how different you bowl to what you thought you look like. I was shocked how round arm I am, I would say less than 10 o'clock, and that whatever I do I tend to run my finger and wrist over the ball thus my tendency to overspin.

But the key is hours of practice and frustration, hope, planning, experimentation, elation, back to frustration, surprise at unexpected turn, more frustration as the next one goes straight, joy of a crossbreeze. The joy of reading something that you read on this forum that you are sure will give you the perfect leg break and the sadness that it does not always work out as planeed. But we are a hardy breed, another day another dawn, more hope and more practice, we do not give up, we are always in search, the search of our dream leg break, and to dream is to live, and to live is to have hope, and till there is hope we keep trying... good luck in your voyage of self discovery.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;349636 said:
Dave i found the site. Take a look. Bowling - Ian Dyer Cricket Books - Wisden Almanacks, Cricket Collectibles and Ephemera
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I'll have a look. But I'm not without injury down south either. I jumped off a wall in the garden in Sept last year at the end of the season just a 5' wall and as I did it I was thinking 'This was nothing when I was younger, but I need to be careful here' and still jumped. The impact seemed to be concentrated on the heel of my left foot and it hasn't gone away since. So when I wake up I hobble around like an old dog and it gradually eases up, but if I run I'm aware of it too and it progressively seems to worsen.

Recently at work going up and down the stairs my knees seems to ache and feel stiff. As you say - getting old.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Well said Saddo! I'll just add this old gem....... You've chosen the most difficult thing to do in cricket and probably the least understood. Welcome to our world!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Well, I won't comment on the googly syndrome, as I have never really had it; there was a stage where I cold bowl googlies but not leg-breaks; however that was because I didn't know how to bowl the leg-break, not because I started bowling the googly and lost it.

I will comment on the inconsistency though; I am the master of inconsistency: I will bowl a beautiful ball one delivery, then a leg-side wide half-tracker the next. The three main differences that I notice between the bad balls and the good ones are: where my head was, what my front arm was doing, and the timing of my pivot. On the bad ball, one or a combination of these three things is different. If my head moves about the ball will follow it: spraying the delivery off line. If my front arm pushes thorough weakly, I tend to drop short. If I mistime the release with the pivot it, I spray it down leg-side.

As for the lack spin; it could have been the surface. However, I have noticed that I can make a slight mistake on the release and get little turn. Sometimes I push it out with hardly any revs, and others I fluff the wrist position and bowl mostly over-spin.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;349639 said:
I'll have a look. But I'm not without injury down south either. I jumped off a wall in the garden in Sept last year at the end of the season just a 5' wall and as I did it I was thinking 'This was nothing when I was younger, but I need to be careful here' and still jumped. The impact seemed to be concentrated on the heel of my left foot and it hasn't gone away since. So when I wake up I hobble around like an old dog and it gradually eases up, but if I run I'm aware of it too and it progressively seems to worsen.

Recently at work going up and down the stairs my knees seems to ache and feel stiff. As you say - getting old.
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Could be plantar fascitis in the heel. Despite our age though we still show some fight.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The Edge Of Willow;349843 I will comment on the inconsistency though; I am the master of inconsistency: I will bowl a beautiful ball one delivery said:
I agree fully with the points of the head, front/leading arm and timing of the pivot. The problem is the more you think about the action as many parts together and try to think of each part while bowling the worse it becomes. Two days ago, I said for 6 deliveries i would just think and feel my rhythm. Forget where the head was, where the leading arm, wrist etc were doing. I put a marker about 2 metres in front of the batting crease at around middle stump line. Of the six, one went down leg side, 4 pitched on off and broke further to offside and 2 hit the marker. That means at that time I was a third as good as grimmett ( macca tells us at the end of practice he had to hit the marker 6 consecutive times). I only thought about my rhythm. The above was better than I usually fare as I tend to land the ball too wide of leg stump.
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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;349641 said:
Good link, you could spend a few quid there! But a load of them are really cheap!
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I think I will gett maccas opinion first as i am sure postage to get it here will be more costly than the book.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Saddo I had a bowl this morning and shot some video footage of me doing some stuff. I've not looked at it yet, but half way through I realised that I was shooting it with my shirt off as it was sunny and being as vain as I am in my old age I'm not sure whether I'm tanned enough to be on youtube with my kit off! I'll probably shoot it again. Anyway I bowled a bit and made my arm sore again and had to stop. Later in the day at family party where I just didn't fit in (We had this conversation before) I had a ball with me and tried the Iverson Gleeson grip and it seemed to work. So this evening with arm not feeling too bad I went and bowled a few Iverson Gleesons and they were alright, seemed to work as Top Spinning off-break balls.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I reckon the topic of conversation on the thread tonight should be about 'The gather' and how important this is. I've looked at the footage of my bowling today and noticed that as I gather, the ball hand is very high and the leading arm is lower. I then looked at Jenner on youtube and his leading arm is very high and the ball hand is much lower. What do the rest of you do or reckon is the done thing?

I've just looked at Warne clip with Mark Richards and he has high ball arm action as he goes into the gather, but he has a nice circular motion, whereas I lift the ball/arm early and leave it there for a much longer amount of time and it looks awkward. I'm wondering whether this has any negative impact on my bowling?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;349645 said:
This is the one i told you looks like a discus thrower search detail
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Yeah I reckon if you freeze my bowling action and it was lower as Grimmetts was it would look similar don't you think? They may have taken each frame singularly as well because of the cameras and film emulsions back in those days, so it would look far more artificial than a frozen in action frame.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;349953 said:
I reckon the topic of conversation on the thread tonight should be about 'The gather' and how important this is. I've looked at the footage of my bowling today and noticed that as I gather, the ball hand is very high and the leading arm is lower. I then looked at Jenner on youtube and his leading arm is very high and the ball hand is much lower. What do the rest of you do or reckon is the done thing?

I've just looked at Warne clip with Mark Richards and he has high ball arm action as he goes into the gather, but he has a nice circular motion, whereas I lift the ball/arm early and leave it there for a much longer amount of time and it looks awkward. I'm wondering whether this has any negative impact on my bowling?
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When I was in high school everyone was trying to be Thommo or Lillee but I was copying Terry Jenner, and one of the things that stood out was how high he got his non-bowling arm and how he kept it high, right until the moment of release. Jenner had a beautiful action in his prime, absolutely classical. Even today if I see my son do something in his bowling that reminds me of a part of Jenners action from those days I am more than happy.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;349649 said:
Yeah I reckon if you freeze my bowling action and it was lower as Grimmetts was it would look similar don't you think? They may have taken each frame singularly as well because of the cameras and film emulsions back in those days, so it would look far more artificial than a frozen in action frame.
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You are the expert, would be interesting if you could 'freeze' your bowling to compare. I am saying this as sometimes when i try this discus like action the seam points towards gully or backward point rather than slips and really spins like a big leg break, ie much more than the small leg breaks that is bowled with a slightly different more upright action. This big turner works one in every 5 or 6 deliveries and is not always on line. I think some spin more when they really hit the seam. So it is a little hit and miss.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

yeah classical gather is probablly the best as it gets the arm through at the standard perfect height but it wil vary with how round arm or vertical your arm comes over. Having your load up bolt upright isn't such a good idea just look at ian salisbury. The jenner like one is probablly best as a set one though, i know mine is probablly a little to low but it helps me spin the ball and upwards more.

i'm annoyed at getting no balled in the game that I detailed on my blog as I was actually no balled on my back leg following through going over the line, which it can.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah I'd love to be able to either photograph or even better film someone who could bowl a heap of different variations using a high speed camera. I've potentially got access to one via work, but I don't know anyone I could film!!! The thing I'd like to see is the Leg break variations as they come out of the hand at something like 50 frames per second or faster.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I recieved another email from Ashley Mallett in which he says plate 14 is inconclusive and it gives no information, but he does concede it could be a topspinner. So that is some kind of resolution I suppose. But the more I dig through old newspapers of the thirties and forties for stories on Grimmett, the more " mystery balls" I find, the closest in description to an actual flipper is a ball he called the "bogie" or "bogie bogie", the name is close to his favoured term for the wrongun ,he usually always calls the googly a " bosie ".

Most of these deliveries sound like flippers delivered with different wrist positions and some of his descriptions of how these ball behave sound like science fiction.

I just read a little piece that former Australian off-spinner, Bruce Yardley, thought Warne held the rough side of the ball away from his face to help his drift. Has that been covered yet?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;349657 said:
Yeah I'd love to be able to either photograph or even better film someone who could bowl a heap of different variations using a high speed camera. I've potentially got access to one via work, but I don't know anyone I could film!!! The thing I'd like to see is the Leg break variations as they come out of the hand at something like 50 frames per second or faster.
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Yes that would be great. Unfortunately I had asked whether it was possible to play the clips on youtube, but was told it is not possible. It is cool having such a camera but it is the subject you have to shoot which is the problem. You cannot just pick some one from the street to do the job. But those clips on ultraslowmotion with warne flicking up the ball with the ring finger is a beauty.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Macca you're amazingly thorough with your research - are you looking at this on micro-fiche in the library or something?

On the subject of gather. it's difficult to see Jenners on the BBC clips as because of the way it's edited, but watching Grahame Swanne recently for England I noticed that his gather action is beautifully smooth and another bowler I noticed this with as well was the Irish Bowler in the world cup in 2007 - Kyle McCallan, they both use a rotational smooth unfurling action with a strong leading arm. I reckon it's something I need to work on.

I've just received a copy of taking wickets in the post today and I'm half way through it already and added some of Grimmetts gems of info to my leg spin blog!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Where are they? Or is it the clip with load of others batting and bowling?

I don't think it's impossible, it's just getting access to the appropriate software and a powerful Mac that'll reduce the size of the original files down to something more usable.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah I reckon the Flipper is an over-looked ball. I was surprised yesterday to read that Philpott reckoned that Benaud wasn't that good at bowling it and very rarely used it because of his 'Slider' was far superior. Philpott also describes the Flipper because of the mechanics of it as a Off-spinners delivery (Or was that Grimmett)? Which I can understand to a point, but I've never come across a off-spinner of note that has it in his reportoire? I'm beginning to realise that the Flipper is a very dark horse that only us on this thread seem to appreciate on the internet. Most other observers seemingly can't get their heads round a bog standard Warnesque flipper let along a Grimmett flipper and all of his connotations of the same delivery!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;349659 said:
Where are they? Or is it the clip with load of others batting and bowling?
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Yes that is the one with music and all . Really beautiful. Does your camera at work use the same frames per second?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;349958 said:
I just read a little piece that former Australian off-spinner, Bruce Yardley, thought Warne held the rough side of the ball away from his face to help his drift. Has that been covered yet?
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No we haven't but it's something I've considered, my older son uses a purposely roughed up one side ball to help with his swing and it's something I've considered doing and when I get back on my bowling again it's something I want to investigate.
 
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