Wrist Spin Bowling

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Macca you're amazingly thorough with your research - are you looking at this on micro-fiche in the library or something?

On the subject of gather. it's difficult to see Jenners on the BBC clips as because of the way it's edited, but watching Grahame Swanne recently for England I noticed that his gather action is beautifully smooth and another bowler I noticed this with as well was the Irish Bowler in the world cup in 2007 - Kyle McCallan, they both use a rotational smooth unfurling action with a strong leading arm. I reckon it's something I need to work on.

I've just received a copy of taking wickets in the post today and I'm half way through it already and added some of Grimmetts gems of info to my leg spin blog!

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Well of course Warnie is half German so he might have some nazi blood flowing through him, that might explain some of his more teutonic behaviour, especially towards "the old enemy".

Yes I had completely forgotten about his ancestry, might make some sense of his personality I guess.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah I reckon the Flipper is an over-looked ball. I was surprised yesterday to read that Philpott reckoned that Benaud wasn't that good at bowling it and very rarely used it because of his 'Slider' was far superior. Philpott also describes the Flipper because of the mechanics of it as a Off-spinners delivery (Or was that Grimmett)? Which I can understand to a point, but I've never come across a off-spinner of note that has it in his reportoire? I'm beginning to realise that the Flipper is a very dark horse that only us on this thread seem to appreciate on the internet. Most other observers seemingly can't get their heads round a bog standard Warnesque flipper let along a Grimmett flipper and all of his connotations of the same delivery!

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Cheers Saddo for bringing in this to my attention as I rarely check his blog.

I actually found it via your website. I hope your elbow is better.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I just read a little piece that former Australian off-spinner, Bruce Yardley, thought Warne held the rough side of the ball away from his face to help his drift. Has that been covered yet?

No we haven't but it's something I've considered, my older son uses a purposely roughed up one side ball to help with his swing and it's something I've considered doing and when I get back on my bowling again it's something I want to investigate.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I think I'd feel the same Macca, I even feel like I'm being a bit up-front with Jenner asking if my son can go on one of his spin coaching sessions as I'd have thought that this was intended for kids via an invite to their clubs or something?

I presume if he gets remunerated he will not be too fussed.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

We are going to head out to the nets now and put in few overs. We might work on bowling to lefthanders today.

There are a couple of good young rep lefthanders at indoors and they play legspin really well and understand exactly what is going on, one of these kids plays a pull shot that David Gower would have been proud of, so maybe a wrongun will have to be employed ?

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I think I'd feel the same Macca, I even feel like I'm being a bit up-front with Jenner asking if my son can go on one of his spin coaching sessions as I'd have thought that this was intended for kids via an invite to their clubs or something?

I bet he answers you and gives you good advice. I could not believe he replied to my question so quickly and sincerely.
I suppose it is a bit different for me because he was a childhood hero of mine, but I love the guy, he might come across a bit gruff to some people it seems but he always strikes me as a big softy. And as I said before whenever my young bloke gets something like that Jenner action happenning in his bowling, I am happy.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yep, I love the wrong un in those situations, I've only been able to use it in opposition to the Flipper and a weak Leg Break and it does up like a Kipper. It'll be so much better to be able to put one down out of the blue after a series of big turning leg breaks, the difference would be so radical! I can't wait. Let us know how you get on?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Dave you could give him a demonstration of Grimmetts " Mystery Ball" from plate 14. Terry Jenner told me that it would be impossible to bowl such a ball!

Yeah how good would that be! We are talking about the Inward spinning flipper that comes out of the hand with Top Spin and breaks towards the Leg Side (Similar to a Wrong Un with more Top Spin)?

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I just read a little piece that former Australian off-spinner, Bruce Yardley, thought Warne held the rough side of the ball away from his face to help his drift. Has that been covered yet?

I once had commented that using the shiny side and rough side could help the flipper or backspinner to swing in the air just like the arm ball for offspinners. I had suggested it when dave said he got loads of swing on his flipper. There must be BACKspin, a seam in the vertical position and the right atmospheric conditions. That is my theory , it can only swing if the seam is vertical as the roughness or smoothness on the ball cause difference in turbulence on different sides that results in changes on different sides of the ball and consequent movement or swing. You cannot get the same thing with overspin or sidespin, thugh you may get drift, which we had tried to analyse in previous posts. Well that is my opinion.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah how good would that be! We are talking about the Inward spinning flipper that comes out of the hand with Top Spin and breaks towards the Leg Side (Similar to a Wrong Un with more Top Spin)?

You get offspin coupled to the topspin as well with this delivery. That happens when I try it. It even happens with the flipper but with backspin

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

But the more I dig through old newspapers of the thirties and forties for stories on Grimmett, the more " mystery balls" I find, the closest in description to an actual flipper is a ball he called the "bogie" or "bogie bogie", the name is close to his favoured term for the wrongun ,he usually always calls the googly a " bosie ".

Most of these deliveries sound like flippers delivered with different wrist positions and some of his descriptions of how these ball behave sound like science fiction.

Looks like warne followed grimmetts foosteps. He seemed to try to get a psychological grip on the batsmen before they even went out to bat. Grimmett had the advantage that they could not analyse his action, but warne had the advantage of drumming in the message of new deliveries throughout the net, radios, books and newspapers. They sound like Goebbels(or whatever his name was), the propaganda officer of the nazis. The batsman would be so frightened on facing that he would already be defeated.But, as someone said on the net, a ball can only go straight, break to off, or break to leg. It cannot do a pirouette before getting to the batsman.Even though as we know it is how the ball gets to the same spot with different over/side/backspin and speed do make a difference.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah how good would that be! We are talking about the Inward spinning flipper that comes out of the hand with Top Spin and breaks towards the Leg Side (Similar to a Wrong Un with more Top Spin)?

Macca does grimmett says he would only get topspin or did he get some off spin too?
Gundalf seemed to bowl it quite well. Masked it very well

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Macca is grimmett on taking wickets the best book. Do the others he wrote add anything? I know you had posted something about this but could not find it. Also did you read the books by Peebles and another by Hollies (who bowled bradman with the googly in his last test)? Are they worth a look into?

Dave also does the spinners yarn have anything different from the art of legspin as I am tempted to try to get a couple of old books.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Saddo the elbow is holding out at the minute but I'm still taking it easy. I bowled today and bowled seam up for some of them, but there was a few reasons for doing so, one being that it doesn't use those muscles and tendons in the same way that the wrist spin does. To be honest with the Jenner thing it does look as though it's slap bang in the middle of our surfing holiday.

 

[The Edge Of Willow]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

There must be BACKspin, a seam in the vertical position and the right atmospheric conditions. That is my theory , it can only swing if the seam is vertical as the roughness or smoothness on the ball cause difference in turbulence on different sides that results in changes on different sides of the ball and consequent movement or swing. You cannot get the same thing with overspin or sidespin, thugh you may get drift, which we had tried to analyse in previous posts. Well that is my opinion.

I think that's pretty accurate, although the seam doesn't always have to be straight vertical to swing; it can be angled and vertical. The turbulence can be caused by the difference between the smooth surface of the ball and the roughness seam. It's why a brand new ball without a difference in the roughness between the sides can swing.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

You get offspin coupled to the topspin as well with this delivery. That happens when I try it. It even happens with the flipper but with backspin

My flippers tend to break like little Leg breaks but with the skid rather than the bounce. But the mystery ball has a definite off break attribute. But the one I'd love to show him is the wrong wrong un AKA The Gipper. With a little practice I know I can get this down the wicket and get it to break to the Offside. Weirdly though not in the same way as I used to, but this may be the case that the break is being offset by the effort to get the length.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I once had commented that using the shiny side and rough side could help the flipper or backspinner to swing in the air just like the arm ball for offspinners. I had suggested it when dave said he got loads of swing on his flipper. There must be BACKspin, a seam in the vertical position and the right atmospheric conditions. That is my theory , it can only swing if the seam is vertical as the roughness or smoothness on the ball cause difference in turbulence on different sides that results in changes on different sides of the ball and consequent movement or swing. You cannot get the same thing with overspin or sidespin, thugh you may get drift, which we had tried to analyse in previous posts. Well that is my opinion.

I will have to get Yardleys exact quote from the library, Yardley did use more swing than most offspinners because he started out as a swing and seam bowler, but he might not have known what was going on with Warne, although legspinners can get backspin if they want. It might have been an old quote too, in the early days a lot of the former players and commentators didn't know what Warne was doing because they hadn't seen anyone that good before.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah how good would that be! We are talking about the Inward spinning flipper that comes out of the hand with Top Spin and breaks towards the Leg Side (Similar to a Wrong Un with more Top Spin)?

That would do, but as soon as you mention "mystery ball" he would yell "security!" The cops would whisk you away and ask you questions about some tosser called "macca", probably best not to mention it.
Reading that article on Mac Gill, it looks like he is the bloke I should have asked as he studied the Grimmett books. I have got his email address but I cant be bothered any more and magilla strikes me as a prickly type of character and unless the question was about wine he wouldn't even reply.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Macca is grimmett on taking wickets the best book. Do the others he wrote add anything? I know you had posted something about this but could not find it. Also did you read the books by Peebles and another by Hollies (who bowled bradman with the googly in his last test)? Are they worth a look into?

Dave also does the spinners yarn have anything different from the art of legspin as I am tempted to try to get a couple of old books.

I'm enjoying them both. I'm halfway through Spinners Yarn which is an odd book. It's written as a series of anecdotes all quite seperate from each other and not in any order at all. I've not finished, but the thing I'm getting from the book is that Philpott was wholly immersed in cricket and appreciated every aspect of it and how it made his life so rich. It's odd but very readable.

The Grimmett book I'm about half way through but I've got to go back a few pages because it's confused me in it's technical detail. I'm a bit baffled by some of Grimmetts descriptions of some of the basic Wrist Spin deliveries.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

That's how he comes across to me sitting here 13,000 miles away! As for Warnie being a Deutchlander that doesn't surprise me at all as he's so direct and blunt. I've got a German aunt (Married my Mum's brother) and she is such a classic lady, she tells it like it is, she doesn't mince her words at all, but I like her because of it, but she rubs everyone else up the wrong way, they just don't get it and I reckon there's a lot in the Aussie character that's similar to the Germans.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

We came across a surface at the nets with a damp carpet on concrete that meant you could not get the ball to grip at all and as a consequence no side spin whatsoever, We dont come across such a surface that often, but I could see the seam clearly and no matter how hard you ripped it, you could not get any turn. Normally in the same net we get loads of spin.

You get drift and drop but once it pitches it comes on like a topspinner sometimes it looks like a small wrongun but is actually just the ball coming on with the arm. It is on such a surface that Philpott says backspin needs to be introduced if you want to spin it, but we just worked on his topspinner anyway.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Macca does grimmett says he would only get topspin or did he get some off spin too?
Gundalf seemed to bowl it quite well. Masked it very well

No he doesn't mention it specifically but he does say how hard it is to bowl and the seam must leave perfectly positioned so it does not break. It only really does its trick by going straight on otherwise it does not gain the pace off the wicket Grimmett wanted, but those slightly off balls cant be too bad can they? Grimmett wanted complete control though and that ,besides the fact he was working on at least three ways of bowling the thumb and second finger spin, was why he waited twelve years to unleash them.
Gundalf might be the best bowler of it going around , we have not found another yet and, as I said ,Jenner wrote to me that it cant be done!

 

[gundalf7]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca i'm sure i've read somewhere as well that having the rough side on th right does help drift as well.

I know the sort of pitch your on about as regards waterlogged concrete carpet pitch from practicing in the winter, a complete backspinner or anything with some back spin like an arm ball is a beautiful variation as it skids through so much quicker than other deliveries.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Go Gundalf! Cricket immortality awaits you - all you need to do is get along to one of these sessions and await your chance and then unleash the impossible. It may mean that in a few years time when Jenner may write a book on the subject....

And then there was this session in Leeds, when out of nowhere a young bloke bowled a ball that I've only ever seen written about in a book 80 years old that was discredited for being impossibe. The ball was Grimmetts Over-spinning flipper and was bowled by a young man calling himself Gundalf.......

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

It sounds like Stuart Mc Gill learnt a bit from Grimmett MacGill's spin put on record - theage.com.au

 

[gundalf7]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

lol that would be a first. I don't know if i'd have the balls to bowl any variations in front of someone like jenner. I may consider enquiring about the coaching session as it really would be a great oppurtunity.

thankfully my shoulder has healed really quickly there is just a slight ache now, had a bowl in the nets of 15 mins yesterday at about half speed and was somewhere between 3/4 and full at times during an hour practice today.

I'm off to edgbaston tomorrow to see england in the odi, hopefully I can see swann bowling well as he is at least a spinner as there aren't any leggies in the odi setup for either team( though surrey's chris schofield should have been at least for the 20-20 world cup).

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Macca is grimmett on taking wickets the best book. Do the others he wrote add anything? I know you had posted something about this but could not find it.

It is the best as far as humour and as an historical document but" Grimmett on Cricket" is the better coaching manual.
"On Taking Wickets" was written in 1930 and is at the beginning of his development of the finger clicking flipper spin, and most readers at the time would not have known what he was talking about I suspect, and even if they did he seems confident it will take you a few years to catch up.
He tries to confuse and worry any upcoming batting opponent who reads the book ( I think they were serialised in British newspapers during the 1930 ashes series,) he pretends he has developed his wrong wrongun (gipper) to such an extent that he might use it soon, he also had an Iverson style finger flicking gipper.
The whole book is a big wind up of all batsmen and a rallying cry for bowlers of all types, there is loads of humour and tongue in cheek tall story telling. It is a great book.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I was reading an account of Mc Gains horror test debut, I only saw the " highlights" on tv. The author said it was not only the worst test debut of all time but also the worst test bowling performance of all time, he must have the stats to back him up.
Anyway he reckons that Mc Gain was not making any pace off the pitch and also at one stage Ponting got him to bowl into the wind so the batsmen could not hit the ball so far back over his head! I have heard that before, but only as a joke. This article also went into how extensive his shoulder rebuild was. Unlucky, because he was bowling really good a couple of years ago, but he might not get another chance.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

It is the best as far as humour and as an historical document but" Grimmett on Cricket" is the better coaching manual.
"On Taking Wickets" was written in 1930 and is at the beginning of his development of the finger clicking flipper spin, and most readers at the time would not have known what he was talking about I suspect, and even if they did he seems confident it will take you a few years to catch up.
He tries to confuse and worry any upcoming batting opponent who reads the book ( I think they were serialised in British newspapers during the 1930 ashes series,) he pretends he has developed his wrong wrongun (gipper) to such an extent that he might use it soon, he also had an Iverson style finger flicking gipper.
The whole book is a big wind up of all batsmen and a rallying cry for bowlers of all types, there is loads of humour and tongue in cheek tall story telling. It is a great book.

Thank you macca, his books seem very hard to find on the net by the look of it though, even from specialist sites.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Was this bloke your best spin option?

Macca I've been reading through 'Getting Wickets' and just read the bit about Medium pace bowling and how Grimmett reckons that Medium pacers should learn how to bowl the wrong un. It was interesting to read that Grimmett considers that the wrong un being bowled out of the back of the hand at Medium pace speed is a far easier and effective delivery and comes natural. My experience with the wrong un kind of supports his observations. I went from a weak leg break to a good wrong un really easily and my wrong un includes a much faster ball that turns quite well. Hence my problems when I tried to recover the Leg Break after bowling 2 years of wrong uns. The Leg break coming out of the front of the hand not only feels wholly un-natural but perhaps is un-natural to some extent?

I've noted that some of the kids at G&C that bowl seam up, can readily turn to bowling half decent leg breaks and this may be because of their own release is uses the palm facing the batsman through the release of the ball. So if they're shown how to cock the wrist and then simply flick it from cocked to straight at the point of relase with the 2 up 2 down wrist spin grip many of them can bowl a Leg Break. What do you reckon to my hypothesis?

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Seems TJ aka Terry jenner is coming in your backyard here davey boy. Time to show off your gipper and the mystery ball maybe. He will be in Essex. Terry Jenner - "The Spin Doctor": overseas and local coaching

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

As far as legspin he was but he only had a brief window before the next crop comes along. I dont know who they are , NSW has some good young legspinners but I dont know much about the state of spin bowling but by the sounds of it they must be worried because they are holding a spin summit later in the year.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Here we go just sent this.......

Mr Jenner,

Can you send me some more details of your spin clinic in Chigwell as I have a 8 year old son who plays for Basildon and Pitsea cc here in Essex and he's learning to bowl wrist spin.

Can you also let me know whether I'd be able to attend too and watch from the sidelines as such, as I'm also a wrist spinner and I'd love the opportunity to see you coaching spin.

Dave Thompson
Basildon
Essex

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Was this bloke your best spin option?

Macca I've been reading through 'Getting Wickets' and just read the bit about Medium pace bowling and how Grimmett reckons that Medium pacers should learn how to bowl the wrong un. It was interesting to read that Grimmett considers that the wrong un being bowled out of the back of the hand at Medium pace speed is a far easier and effective delivery and comes natural. My experience with the wrong un kind of supports his observations. I went from a weak leg break to a good wrong un really easily and my wrong un includes a much faster ball that turns quite well. Hence my problems when I tried to recover the Leg Break after bowling 2 years of wrong uns. The Leg break coming out of the front of the hand not only feels wholly un-natural but perhaps is un-natural to some extent?

I've noted that some of the kids at G&C that bowl seam up, can readily turn to bowling half decent leg breaks and this may be because of their own release is uses the palm facing the batsman through the release of the ball. So if they're shown how to cock the wrist and then simply flick it from cocked to straight at the point of relase with the 2 up 2 down wrist spin grip many of them can bowl a Leg Break. What do you reckon to my hypothesis?

Some kids can pick up the basics and get a legbreak pretty quick can't they? I have seen some good young pace bowlers (under 12) that can bowl good legspinners too but they seem to lose interest in legspin because they just are not consistently accurate enough and turn back to fast bowling because it easier to land the ball on the spot. If they practised they would get better, but they dont put the time in.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

They sound like Goebbels(or whatever his name was), the propaganda officer of the nazis. The batsman would be so frightened on facing that he would already be defeated.

Well of course Warnie is half German so he might have some nazi blood flowing through him, that might explain some of his more teutonic behaviour, especially towards "the old enemy".
But Grimmett however must have hated facism to allow his only child to volunteer to go half way around the world and pilot lancasters over Germany during those dark days. Victor Grimmett was awarded the D.F.C for bravery during the war and in Malletts book there is a photo of Clarrie Grimmett with his son just after he received the medal. He looks a very proud father.
I notice that Victor Grimmett has posted a comment on a webpage devoted to his father where he makes a few corrections he even leaves a return email address. I of course would not bother him with questions about his late father, I feel bad enough hassling poor old Ashley Mallett . It was in 2006 but shows he still cares for his fathers legacy

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The other interesting thing that it seems only Grimmett would ever have looked into and explored is the Flipper variations. He talks about them at the stage I've read up to so far but only in the context of bowling them over short distances conceding that they would be difficult to bowl over the full 22 yards as we're all finding out oursleves with the exception of Gundalf. Interestingly he mentions the version here in my you tube clip

YouTube - Doosra affect

Where if the fingers are clicked early with the wrist still cocked the ball breaks to the left as in the clip like Leg break. I personally reckon this is how Murali bowls his Doosra, because if your click the fingers a fraction of a second later with the hand stretched out the ball breaks like an off-break. But the thing is I can't see how with a normal bowling action whereby the wrist and forearm are turned anti-clockwise to produce the up-turned hand this can be done? Or was it that Grimmet was turning his wrist clockwise through the delivery like Murali to get the hand into that position?

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Here we go just sent this.......

Mr Jenner,

Can you send me some more details of your spin clinic in Chigwell as I have a 8 year old son who plays for Basildon and Pitsea cc here in Essex and he's learning to bowl wrist spin.

Can you also let me know whether I'd be able to attend too and watch from the sidelines as such, as I'm also a wrist spinner and I'd love the opportunity to see you coaching spin.

Dave Thompson
Basildon
Essex

Dave you could give him a demonstration of Grimmetts " Mystery Ball" from plate 14. Terry Jenner told me that it would be impossible to bowl such a ball!

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Again on the subject of Medium pace bowling, I don't know whether you've been following my main blog Wrist Spin Bowling but recently because of the injury I'm carrying I've reverted to bowling medium pace as it's the delivery that my sons come up against in their games and I'm surprised how easy it is to bowl straight.

I'm now thinking because of the observations made previously in this thread with regards the ease with which kids can turn their hand to bowling Leg Breaks, might it be a strategy to get kids that have a genuine desire to bowl leg breaks to also look at bowling Medium pace? The rationale being that as previously observed their learned and eventually wholly natural release of the ball is not dis-similar to the release of the leg break, the ball comes out of the front of the hand albeit with a different finger/grip combination. It strikes me that the journey from medium pace bowler to Leg Break bowler could be as simple as incorporating the 2 up 2 down grip and the cocked wrist and understanding that the key is the quick unfurling of the cocked wrist to the palm fowards position on release? The theory being that some of the grafting e.g. line and length would have been mastered using the far less complex medium pace bowling technique. So that incorporating of the wrist flick might temporarily cause line and length issues, but the bowler would have the self belief and prior knowledge that it is possible with some work?

Rather than trying to bowl Leg breaks right from the outset trying to spin the ball whilst also trying to come to terms with getting the line and length correct. What do you reckon?

Expanding on this point I've updated the Leg Break page of my wrist spin blog http://legspinbowling.blogspot.com/2009/03/x.html the updated bits are highlighted blue, so if you're up for some proof reading I'd appreciate any comments on the new content please?