Leg Spin

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Re: Leg Spin

I bowl leg spin and can turn it a fair bit with pace on most wickets. I have a fairly shortish (5 paces - lazy git!) and straight run up, but i'm not sure having a straight run up or not has a great deal to do with leg spin bowling. After reading the excellent 'The Art of Wrist Spin Bowling by Peter Philpotts' book on leg spin and trying some advice he gives, I feel that a side on action coupled with a proper follow through where your whole body rotates around is the key to getting a. your line right and b. revs on the ball - due to the pivot action.

The line you bowl is dictated by the position of the feet and your leading arm, which acts as the 'lever' to pull your bowling arm into action along the same line. Essentially what i'm saying is that your whole body should be in line with your target as you release the ball. The rotating follow through is an integral part of the action but if the rotation appears to early in your action you'll spray the ball everywhere as you get too front on.

Regarding length, I have found that if you're dropping short it usually means you're not 'spinning up' as Shane Warne likes to say, meaning you're not releasing the ball so that it loops up above the eyeline then down to the batsman. This naturally helps me get a fuller length - I don't know why, maybe it's subconscious? I always think it's better to risk being fuller than shorter, especially if the batsman is a hermit in his crease.

If you're letting go of the ball at a flatter trajectory it's a LOT harder to control the length of a delivery as you tend to drag it down. The only time I bowl a flatter trajectory ball is with the slider, where the bowling action and pace means my delivery normally goes straight rather than up and down.

I'm pretty sure most leg spin bowlers will understand some of what i'm babbling on about.

Regards

James
 
Re: Leg Spin

James P - you sound like a bloke who knows what he's on about - you should post on here more!

I noticed in the nets last night that our best Spinner was doing as you've said "The Spinning up" thing. He seems to be able to release the ball on an upward trajectory above the eye-line of the batsman, but then the ball seems to dip very late but still maintaining a lot of speed, it doesn't appear to dip because of a lack of speed, it seems to dip in the manner that swing bowlers curve the ball in or away, but this appears to be downward curve? I spoke to one of the other bowlers and he made the same observation - but added that the bloke that was bowling didn't know how he did it - it just happened for him.

Is this what is happening? Because if it is - this is a whole new dimension and how does that happen areodynamically - it doesn't ring true with the physics I've seen explaining how you get a ball to swing off the seam?
 
Re: Leg Spin

freddiw said:
Yea this is,

the issue is that I cannot just bowl at a marker.
It doesnt work for me as I dont know whether I am doing the right things in the air and I need that challenge of going against the batsmen

Are there any workouts that could help my bowling in general

dave can you post a vid??
Click to expand...

Yeah - it's a different game when you've got a batsman there, they feel obligated to come after you and with relative ease you're going to force errors so the accuracy aspect isn't always that much of an issue. So I'd say don't get too hung up on spot bowling especially if you're managing to turn the ball into the stumps. As Tom says, if you are looking to improve your accuracy - just make the target bigger. I personally use a target that is long and narrow (It's just a bit of board 10" wide and about 4' long). I place it so that the closest end is 5 yards from the stumps and the nearest end is about 4 yards out. I'm happy if I can get the ball onto the board - because it means my line is fairly tight and my length is variable which as a starting point I'm happy with. Try that maybe?
 
Re: Leg Spin

James P said:
If you're letting go of the ball at a flatter trajectory it's a LOT harder to control the length of a delivery as you tend to drag it down. The only time I bowl a flatter trajectory ball is with the slider, where the bowling action and pace means my delivery normally goes straight rather than up and down.

I'm pretty sure most leg spin bowlers will understand some of what i'm babbling on about.

Regards

James
Click to expand...

Yeah - I'm with you on this, I bowl the slider as my fastest delivery out of nowhere and yeah - it comes out in a straight line and stays really low with hardly any dip or curve in the air. But I'm not really sure it's the real thing but it's so different to any of my other deliveries it takes people by surprise.
 
Re: Leg Spin

someblokecalleddave said:
freddiw said:
Yea this is,

the issue is that I cannot just bowl at a marker.
It doesnt work for me as I dont know whether I am doing the right things in the air and I need that challenge of going against the batsmen

Are there any workouts that could help my bowling in general

dave can you post a vid??
Click to expand...

Yeah - it's a different game when you've got a batsman there, they feel obligated to come after you and with relative ease you're going to force errors so the accuracy aspect isn't always that much of an issue. So I'd say don't get too hung up on spot bowling especially if you're managing to turn the ball into the stumps. As Tom says, if you are looking to improve your accuracy - just make the target bigger. I personally use a target that is long and narrow (It's just a bit of board 10" wide and about 4' long). I place it so that the closest end is 5 yards from the stumps and the nearest end is about 4 yards out. I'm happy if I can get the ball onto the board - because it means my line is fairly tight and my length is variable which as a starting point I'm happy with. Try that maybe?
Click to expand...

You have you're target pretty good. I think we get a bit too carried away when we say that you should aim for a small target; when in truth all cricketers should be aiming for an area so that they can trick the batsman.

The small target comes into play in helping you to be able to pick your spot time after time, but in club cricket, if you can hit that area similar to what you describe Dave), then you're heading in the right direction.

As for the dipping, my understanding is that its the actual rotation of the ball which aids the dip, so the more rip, the more the ball will dip at the last second.
 
Re: Leg Spin

Now that's worrying - because that adds a totally new dimension and complexity to Spin bowling. In fact so much so - I'm not even going to go there because this sounds like natural ability or something that comes about by just being very good at it and I can't even bowl Leg Breaks and get them to turn let alone start to examine and try and fathom the complexities of "Dip"!

What I will do though is through the coming season is watch our three Leg Spinners and see if this phenomenon is prevalent in all three of them and watch other teams leg spinners and see how many do produce this dip.

In the short term I'm quite happy just to be able to bowl an ever improving line and length and be able to turn the ball one way or the other at will with either my Flipper or Wrong Un. Small steps one at a time I reckon is the way to go and aim to beat last years figures. 1 wicket per game this season is the intention - if that comes about I'll be more than pleased!
 
Re: Leg Spin

I liked the sounds of that book James referenced earlier by Peter Philpotts so I've just ordered it along with Rain Man and Fatty Batter as they're supposed to be similar to my blog in some way, so that'll be interesting!
 
Re: Leg Spin

Dip is a mystery to me but that's how I've had it explained to me. It's all to do with air flow around the ball as far as I know (much like swing and curve). I would imagine that the same forces effect a football (banana curve free kicks etc) so that might be an area to read up on.

Out of the books, Rain Men is a top read and I think I likened it your blog as it just shows how cricket can get a hold of you and never let go, which leads to us doing all sorts of insane things in the name of the game. Cricket insanity anyone?
 
Re: Leg Spin

someblokecalleddave said:
I spoke to one of the other bowlers and he made the same observation - but added that the bloke that was bowling didn't know how he did it - it just happened for him.

Is this what is happening? Because if it is - this is a whole new dimension and how does that happen areodynamically - it doesn't ring true with the physics I've seen explaining how you get a ball to swing off the seam?
Click to expand...

Hello Dave,

i'm not too sure myself why this happens as it's a technical thing called the Magnus effect that all spinning objects in ball games have. I don't want to get too deep on it, I just know that when I bowl my top spinner with a lot of revs it dips a lot faster and with more pace than if there are less revs. The same thing applies to my leggies where the more revs I put on the more curve in the air (which is the same thing as the dip from the top spinner but as the seam is pointing in a different direction so the Magnus effect changes the airflow over the ball)

I would say it's not worth investigating these things too much unless you're either a sports biowhatever or an international class bowler. It's hard enough for me to bowl consistently without worrying about too many technical details. I find it's best to concentrate on getting the ball up and in the right areas and give subtle variations to get the batsman guessing, and just let the laws of physics take care of themselves. I must admit I surprise myself sometimes with bowling when you really rip a ball and it goes straight on, and the next delivery you can give a gentle flick and it pitches on middle and goes to 2nd slip!!! Guess that's one of the reasons we all play the game - you never know what's around the corner!

Re Peter Philpotts book - an excellent read, focusing on the mental and physical preparation as well as technical aspects. Can only help with anyone's bowling!

Regards

James
 
Re: Leg Spin

the easiest thing to do is to just vary the amount of spin with your variations and at the same time the dip will vary.


on another note does anyone know how to bowl the slider like warne does, i've seen the jenner vid and can't seem to reproduce it and have talked to 3 other people about it and have been shown 3 different grips/releases and none seem to really backspin properly
 
Re: Leg Spin

someblokecalleddave said:
Is this what is happening? Because if it is - this is a whole new dimension and how does that happen areodynamically - it doesn't ring true with the physics I've seen explaining how you get a ball to swing off the seam?
Click to expand...

Swing off the seam ? Surely you mean seam off the seam, unless you're talking about the direction of the seam leading to the change in swing.

I think Leg-spinning is somewhat to do with natural ability, it either works for you or it doesn't. I find it incredibly hard to bowl leg-spin and find the ball incredibly hard to control. When i get it right and in the right spot it spins a mile, but i get it right one in 5 balls :laugh: The dip is something i've seen Shane Warne talking about, he was fantastic at getting the ball to flight above the batsman's eyeline, but still hit the right area of the pitch at the correct pace. He's a masterful bowler.
 
Re: Leg Spin

Cheers for replying James - yeah you're right I'm not going to get bogged down in trying to get the ball to dip and as King Pieterson says it's probably one of those natural ability things. I'm just going to focus on what I'm doing at the moment and see how it pans out.
 
Re: Leg Spin

is this the right release for the top spinner, My back of my hand is facing the sky and when i release it my back of my hand faces the batsmen with the seam going straight,?
 
Re: Leg Spin

Yeah sounds right if you've got a lowish arm angle as it comes over? But I reckon your arm should be almost straight (vertical) when bowling a top spinner so the back of you hand should be pointing towards you and the same as you release the ball. But if you look at the Shane Warne video here - [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfZgFi9Q9gc"]YouTube - Shane Warne[/ame]

He says exactly as you've suggested, but he also suggests several times in this video each individual has their own way of bowling - he says "Me" in a way that suggests that the way he bowls isn't neccessarily suitable for everyone. My Top Spinner is more vertical as I've described. You'll find a way that suits you.

Hows your Leg Break?
 
Re: Leg Spin

Well i have two different ways of bowling the leg break, One where my wrist is bent so the ball faces down and i flick it so my whole palm faces the batsmen, the other way is where my palm and the ball always face the batsmen when i rotate my third finger and wrist. Also i bowl with my arm at 10 o clock so i do get a lot of side spin So if i want to to bowl the top spinner my arm should be higher?:
 
Re: Leg Spin

Possibly - the thing is to try it. You might find it works for you? It'll only take a few balls to see if does cos it'll just go straight and bounce over the top of the stumps or slightly higher than normal?
 
Re: Leg Spin

Afternoon all, good to find a little corner of the internet where Leggies still exist!

I've only just started bowling Leg Spin, after giving up my Medium Fast Pie ChuckingTM due to what I believe is a near-incorrectible flaw in my bowling action.
I'm 23, and about 10 years back I had a couple of nasty injuries to my left heel and later the ligaments in my left knee - for some reason I tend to naturally over-correct to the right when landing my front foot, and as a result, I tend to put a lot of balls down the leg side. Despite a lot of effort and graft, the problem is still there, and in my team we're already stocked to the rafters with much quicker and more accurate bowlers.
As a result, I figured I'd give Leg Spin a bit of a whirl. Not only is there a gap for it in my team (we have two Spinners, one of whom is approaching 70!), my natural tendency to pitch the ball on or about leg is less of a problem, and probably a bonus.

Aaaaaanyway, long story short (yes, this is the SHORT version!) like quite a few of the posters I've seen, I'm interspersing non-turning short buffet balls with unplayable spinning, dipping, spitting balls that reduce batsmen to gibbering wrecks.

I'm having no problems with the amount of turn I get (one delivery strikes me as a real beauty - pitching about six inches outside leg on a good (if a fraction short of what I'd call ideal) length, the ball arrowed down (I think I'm a bit too quick by spinner standards, so that's something I want to address) and really bit in, turning so much it actually went past the off stump!
Now I know that I simply got lucky and bowled a freak ball that I'll almost certainly never bowl again, but it's nice to know that that amount of turn is there to be had, if I can just work out HOW to do it.

Unfortunately, 4/5 balls an over are just pitching a bit too far down (still bowling that Medium Pacer's length, I think) and not really getting much turn. Also, whilst practicing the other day, I noticed that I'm still pitching it a bit too far outside leg. Whilst it's a good place to bowl if I can imitate the ball I bowled the other day, until that day comes, it's just asking to either be called wide or hammered over the Pavillion.

Anyway, not really expecting you to all cure me, as it's a practice thing as much as anything. More saying a ridiculously lengthy 'Hello', really. Of course I'm more than willing to share ideas/suggestions/stories too!
 
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