Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

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Does anyone remember the news story or better still can anyone find a link to the story about a giant effigy of Shane Warne being paraded around the streets of London prior to the Ashes in 2005?

Another media related question about Warne - Someone posted up a video of Warne from years ago doing his 'Out in the middle' explanations of his deliveries. Might have been Chippy Ben? Was that a 9MSN channel program and have they always covered the big Aussie cricket macthes and has Mark Nicholas always been involved?

Also where is that really old clip of Warnie out in the Middle - it also had some of the England players in amongst the kids watching and listening - who posted that up and where is it now?
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Does anyone remember the news story or better still can anyone find a link to the story about a giant effigy of Shane Warne being paraded around the streets of London prior to the Ashes in 2005?

Another media related question about Warne - Someone posted up a video of Warne from years ago doing his 'Out in the middle' explanations of his deliveries. Might have been Chippy Ben? Was that a 9MSN channel program and have they always covered the big Aussie cricket macthes and has Mark Nicholas always been involved?

Also where is that really old clip of Warnie out in the Middle - it also had some of the England players in amongst the kids watching and listening - who posted that up and where is it now?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGTCtd0ZSLU

here's big Warnie!
 
My sons team had another big win today. They have only lost once all season. Bowling wise he only got 2 overs. Went for 2 runs in the first over and the 2nd was a maiden. So ten dot balls from 12 is OK. So cumulative he is at 17 overs 3 maidens 4/47. That dont include the 2 overs for 5 runs that didn't get put on the website stats.

He seems to be not getting a fair suck of the sauce bottle as far as overs go. That can change through the season but if he only gets mimimum overs from now on I will say something, dont worry about that.
 
macca said:
Good luck with that mate. If they get away from yous'e it might end up like the national side, if all else fails who you gonna call ?.... Legspinner. Hey, that's you!
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Macca 2 overs isnt enough at all per weekend.
We had a good win. We got last 6 wickets in quickly and had them out for 103. I got my first 5 wicket haul of the season which was pleasing even though its basically put a halt to my leg spin ambitions for this season. We went back into bat and put on 170 before declaring with a 220 lead with 22 overs to get them. We only managed 4 wickets and at one stage they were on pace to win it. Eventually we got their slogger out and they just blocked out to save the match. I finished with 7 for the match.
A good win all in all and consolodates 2nd spot for us.
Our 3rd grade had an exiting match and highlights the beauty of 2 day 2 innings cricket. They won first innings and set them 200 off 35 to win the second innings and the match. Anyway the other team had 22 to get off the last four overs with 4 wickets in hand. Easy task you may think but a hatrick in the second last over swung it the other way and then the other team held on for the last over with 9 wickets down to save an outright loss!!!
 
chippyben said:
Macca 2 overs isnt enough at all per weekend.
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Yeah and he has got FA runs as well so far. Trouble is they are winning these games so easy, they are clearly undergraded. They will be minor premiers for sure but in the semis anything could happen. My son gets to come on after the 3 pace guys every week but the coach just goes around the clock by two,s then until the extras at the end. The last few weeks he has been giving the kids who haven't got a wicket the extra overs. Not many teams can afford to do that all the other clubs have more specialist bowling line-ups.

Last year my kid was often the spearhead and got 4-5 overs most weeks but stayed down in the batting order. That was probably better for sure, and it makes sense for spinners to play in the grade where they get bowled most, but it still will be better in the long run to stick with this team as the spinner, because they are going places and that means longer games, turf wickets, official umpires and better batsmen to attack.

Long live legspin.
 
I've actually noticed recently that a lot of good batsmen are listed as bowling legspin, but of course they never really have much of a bowl. Tendulkar does of course, apparently Bradman did, Katich and Michael Bevan with their chinamen and now Straussy.

Are there any vids anywhere of Katich bowling his left arm chinamen? I've looked but can't find anything.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
After weeks of work and discussion on here, I've come to some conclusions regarding the Back-Spinners. If you're vaguely interested here's the results http://legspinbowling.blogspot.com/2010/12/orthodox-back-spinner-slider-zooter.html the only thing is Golden Arms got a book by Benuad and the ICC and he may have an earlier verifiable account of a Back-Spinner pre Philpott. In which case I might have to re-write this again!
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The first publication of the book was indeed 1994. i'm quite busy this week but i'll try and find some time to scan in the pages at some stage soon. they're not very revealing tbh. like macca says Benaud is a tight lipped ************, wish he'd just cough up the goods and write an explicit book on leg spinning, perhaps collaborate with other leg spinners like mushie, qadir, warne and macgill. what a book that would be...we can but dream.
 
GoldenArm said:
The first publication of the book was indeed 1994. i'm quite busy this week but i'll try and find some time to scan in the pages at some stage soon. they're not very revealing tbh. like macca says Benaud is a tight lipped badger, wish he'd just cough up the goods and write an explicit book on leg spinning, perhaps collaborate with other leg spinners like mushie, qadir, warne and macgill. what a book that would be...we can but dream.
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That'll be brilliant if you can. I'm just reading Grimmetts Getting Wickets now looking for the reference to the Wrong Wrong Un, but I think I'm in the wrong book. He talks about it in loose terms e.g. a Flipper delivery that looks like a Googly and turns off the pitch the same as a Leg Break. Interestingly I've just noticed that throughout this book Grimmett refers to the 'Wrong Un' primarily as the 'Googly' and secondly as the 'Bosie', from which I can only deduce that in 1930 the term 'Wrong Un' wasn't in general use?

Just been reading my 1948 version of 'Grimmett on Cricket' and he's still referring to the Wrong Un as a Googly. When did Wrong Un come into popular use?
 
someblokecalleddave said:
That'll be brilliant if you can. I'm just reading Grimmetts Getting Wickets now looking for the reference to the Wrong Wrong Un, but I think I'm in the wrong book. He talks about it in loose terms e.g. a Flipper delivery that looks like a Googly and turns off the pitch the same as a Leg Break. Interestingly I've just noticed that throughout this book Grimmett refers to the 'Wrong Un' primarily as the 'Googly' and secondly as the 'Bosie', from which I can only deduce that in 1930 the term 'Wrong Un' wasn't in general use?

Just been reading my 1948 version of 'Grimmett on Cricket' and he's still referring to the Wrong Un as a Googly. When did Wrong Un come into popular use?
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Mallett says in the grimmett bio that old grum usually called it a bosie, partly out of respect for the creator, Bosanquet.

Grimmett met bosanquet at cambridge or oxford? 1930 and they spoke alone late into the night and early hours of the morning. Grimmett told bosanquet about his fingerclick spin and how he hoped to soon introduce his own innovation just as bosanquet had done many years before. Oh to be a fly on the wall at that session.
 
i came across another interesting thing recently whilst reading Philpotts book A Spinners Yarn.In the most interesting chapter The Spinners Web he talks about various back spinners (flippers, sliders and OBS's) being passed along a lineage (sometimes from friend to friend, dooland to benaud, or in families, Colin and Russell McCool are the example he uses) and how most kept them to themselves as their closest guarded secrets. He talks about Grimmetts flippers as one category, then he puts Cec Pepper, Reg Pearce & the McCools into another which we can assume are various forms of slider as they are 'palmed out the of front of the hand', the Cec Pepper one sounds particularly deadly:

"the core of his attack was a back-spinner of his own, palmed out the front of the hand, which zipped off the wicket like a rocket. Like so many leg spinners, Cec would not discuss that delivery."


He then puts Benaud (who also pops up as a flipper user), Bob Simpson, Jim Higgs, Bob Holland, Trevor Hohns, Wal Walmsley and John Freeman into the Orthodox back spinner category. Also quite amusingly this was written, and I've just realised this is going to annoy the hell out of you Dave because this predates everything so far, in 1990 (it may even have been written before that as this is a collection of his reminiscences from his career) and Adrian Tucker is the young leg spinner he names as the next gen of aussie leggie. who knew the juggernaut himself would turn up two years later! what i'll do is scan the whole chapter in and post it on my blog so you can check it out for yourselves, its a very intriguing little piece and clearly along with 'Oh for some spin again' (which is also in this book) formed the seeds that would lead to his Guide to Wrist Spin Bowling. Check amazon for a cheap copy if you want one there's one going for £1.66 at the moment and all the rest are 20 quid plus. looks like i got mine at the right time!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spinners-Ya...0553/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1292194136&sr=8-2
 
GoldenArm said:
i came across another interesting thing recently whilst reading Philpotts book A Spinners Yarn.In the most interesting chapter The Spinners Web he talks about various back spinners (flippers, sliders and OBS's) being passed along a lineage (sometimes from friend to friend, dooland to benaud, or in families, Colin and Russell McCool are the example he uses) and how most kept them to themselves as their closest guarded secrets. He talks about Grimmetts flippers as one category, then he puts Cec Pepper, Reg Pearce & the McCools into another which we can assume are various forms of slider as they are 'palmed out the of front of the hand', the Cec Pepper one sounds particularly deadly:

"the core of his attack was a back-spinner of his own, palmed out the front of the hand, which zipped off the wicket like a rocket. Like so many leg spinners, Cec would not discuss that delivery."

He then puts Benaud (who also pops up as a flipper user), Bob Simpson, Jim Higgs, Bob Holland, Trevor Hohns, Wal Walmsley and John Freeman into the Orthodox back spinner category. Also quite amusingly this was written, and I've just realised this is going to annoy the hell out of you Dave because this predates everything so far, in 1990 (it may even have been written before that as this is a collection of his reminiscences from his career) and Adrian Tucker is the young leg spinner he names as the next gen of aussie leggie. who knew the juggernaut himself would turn up two years later! what i'll do is scan the whole chapter in and post it on my blog so you can check it out for yourselves, its a very intriguing little piece and clearly along with 'Oh for some spin again' (which is also in this book) formed the seeds that would lead to his Guide to Wrist Spin Bowling. Check amazon for a cheap copy if you want one there's one going for £1.66 at the moment and all the rest are 20 quid plus. looks like i got mine at the right time!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spinners-Ya...0553/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1292194136&sr=8-2
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No worries as I've got the book and I'll have a look - let me know what pages as that'll be helpful. I'm not worried about the dates in this instance as this constitutes anecdotal evidence rather than cold hard written down facts. This is just cricketers talking about deliveries and its all subject to bluff and bragging to some extent. I can't use it in the context that I'm trying to establish as it needs to be a published and detailed account of the delivery with a name for the delivery accredited to it. The only people that have ever done that it seems is Philpott and Grimmett!

The mention although anecdotal of Peppers 'Palm Ball' is interesting. Someone (Warne preferably) needs to claim this as their own and get it written down and published, same with the 2up 2 down pulled down the back of the ball method with the scrambled seam.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
No worries as I've got the book and I'll have a look - let me know what pages as that'll be helpful. I'm not worried about the dates in this instance as this constitutes anecdotal evidence rather than cold hard written down facts. This is just cricketers talking about deliveries and its all subject to bluff and bragging to some extent. I can't use it in the context that I'm trying to establish as it needs to be a published and detailed account of the delivery with a name for the delivery accredited to it. The only people that have ever done that it seems is Philpott and Grimmett!

The mention although anecdotal of Peppers 'Palm Ball' is interesting. Someone (Warne preferably) needs to claim this as their own and get it written down and published, same with the 2up 2 down pulled down the back of the ball method with the scrambled seam.
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there's some pretty hard evidence on page 155 he explicitly describes the orthodox backspinner (using that exact term) almost exactly the same as he does in the wrist spin guide, and he attributes the delivery to a host of players. He makes a point of distinguishing it from the palmed balls (sliders)and we can assume he saw all of theses blokes play and perhaps even discussed it with a few of them, suggesting the delivery had been around for some time by this stage already (1950 onwards, possibly earlier) as they had all found it in their own way, either by experimentation or by someone passing it on to them. I think finding an actual origin for the delivery is going to be hard but I reckon we've read enough to interpret this evidence. Basically bowling leg spin is a highly individual thing, there are basic techniques for bowling the leg break, the top spinner, the wrong un, the flipper, the slider and the orthodox back spinner and whilst some of these are quite rigid in their application, some are subject to varying degrees of interpretation, especially the slider which is perhaps the most individually tailored variation but always roughly ends up being pushed out of the front of the hand in some way. big flick, no flick, two up two down, cross seam etc... the more complete the method, the better the slider. pepper obviously gave his a big flick and got a ton of action on the ball to get it to zip like that whereas Reg Pearce may have rolled it more and it was less effective. all variations on a theme but all clearly what i would term genuine sliders and totally distinguishable from the orthodox back-spinner.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
After weeks of work and discussion on here, I've come to some conclusions regarding the Back-Spinners. If you're vaguely interested here's the results http://legspinbowling.blogspot.com/2010/12/orthodox-back-spinner-slider-zooter.html the only thing is Golden Arms got a book by Benuad and the ICC and he may have an earlier verifiable account of a Back-Spinner pre Philpott. In which case I might have to re-write this again!
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Great work Dave. Your work must be the most in depth research about backspinners if not the only research going round. The academic method you have used has made it a valuable resource to all leg spinners. Plus I can keep calling my OBS a slider!
 
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