Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Top Contributors
chippyben said:
Ive seen this video before and had no idea what he's on about. Isn't that just a leg break forced out the front of the hand ala the big leg break. Another deception maybe??
My understanding of the flipper is the click forces the wrist to rotate in the same direction as an off break. He is rotating the fingers and wrist in the direction for a leg break.
Click to expand...

It's just not a very clear demo, there's another one where he's outside bowling in the nets and he uses a flipper variation and again that's not particularly clear either. Although I'm beginning to think that it's not that important that the wrist presentation is obsessively accurate in the delivery, if you watch him in the nets video http://www.youtube.com/user/majinvegeta2007#p/a/u/1/AyHX7GsrMlo here it strikes me that what he says that he's doing (especially with the Flipper and the 'Slider') he doesn't execute that well in practice. Also the slider in this version differs to the Mark wosshisface video here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfZgFi9Q9gc and again this flipper is different again. This is the issue I have with these on-line tutorials as opposed to detailed descriptions committed in the written form. If you're learning these deliveries and you're unaware that the Flipper comes in 4 different basic versions and then can be divided up again into versions with more over-spin or more angle these video demos only serve to confuse the issue. I reckon they are all flippers and I've changed my mind on the Danish Kaneria video as well - it's just that these video presentations have been put together in a shoddy manner not intended to be the definitive account of how to bowl it.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
It's just not a very clear demo, there's another one where he's outside bowling in the nets and he uses a flipper variation and again that's not particularly clear either. Although I'm beginning to think that it's not that important that the wrist presentation is obsessively accurate in the delivery, if you watch him in the nets video http://www.youtube.com/user/majinvegeta2007#p/a/u/1/AyHX7GsrMlo here it strikes me that what he says that he's doing (especially with the Flipper and the 'Slider') he doesn't execute that well in practice. Also the slider in this version differs to the Mark wosshisface video here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfZgFi9Q9gc and again this flipper is different again. This is the issue I have with these on-line tutorials as opposed to detailed descriptions committed in the written form. If you're learning these deliveries and you're unaware that the Flipper comes in 4 different basic versions and then can be divided up again into versions with more over-spin or more angle these video demos only serve to confuse the issue. I reckon they are all flippers and I've changed my mind on the Danish Kaneria video as well - it's just that these video presentations have been put together in a shoddy manner not intended to be the definitive account of how to bowl it.
Click to expand...

That video of him in the nets is probably the best one on the net for seeing the action and deliveries from all angles.
I'm still inclined to think Warnes slider is just a hard spun leg break as desribed by Philpott. Warne must not put much spin on his version to make it "slide" Putting the seam the other way just adds natural variation and eliminates drift. Ive said before on the forum somewhere that maybe on hard test match wickets the lack of top spin must make it skid or slide on. If he does puts lots of revs on it I can't understand why he calls it a slider.
When I bowl it I get the most drift and turn of any delivery because the rotation is right angles to the direction its travelling although it bounces lower and slower off the pitch. I reckon the only way to bowl a ball that spins right angles to the direction of travel is to push it out of the front of the hand as with Philpotts exercise of holding the arm in front of yourself and spinning it back to your chest. What do you reckon?
I had a quick net this morning and was trying to really cup it over as Philpott says as I tend to not get right over it at times. I had to take your googly syndrome advice and do the karate chop to get it turning instead of just bowling toppies.
 
They just had Jenner on in the lunch break. Geez the poor bloke looks crook. He said that when he first came across Steve Smith he was a talented young bowler getting good turn. Now he says his action is wrse, he throws both his arms back which stops his forward momentum and opens himself up to get the forward momentum. "Hes never going to be consistant bowling like that"
He reckons the change in his action is because of 20/20 and one day cricket. He said Warne played 20 tests before he played a one dayer and he advocates that Smith and others shouldnt be playing anything other than first class cricket.Smith should be working with Warnie all the time. He says we are trying to develop our spinners too quickly and not giving them time to learn their craft. He says we are throwing them in too early before they have a chance to really groove their action which in turn gives them the confidence they need in their action. In his words we are just burning them off and getting the next one.
When they went back to Warne and Odonnell presenting the show Odonnell said to Warne "youve been working with him a bit,(smith) what do you think" and Warne basically implied Smith wasnt doing what Warne had showed him and that he needed to do a hell of a lot more practice.
As I cant record it hopefully this gives all who didnt see it an idea of what it was about. Its a shame it wasn't a longer and more in depth segment.
 
chippyben said:
What do you do with your son when it goes wrong?
Do you still play Macca?
Click to expand...

No I dont play anymore.

I can never tell how he is going until a game because he doesn't put in as much in the nets or out in the middle practise. He gets taller in his action in a game and puts more energy into it.

We have been training hard this week, big game and then a break.I got a bit worried he hasn't been overpitching a trifle. Seems a fraction short at times this week. So I have been on to that.
 
chippyben said:
They just had Jenner on in the lunch break. Geez the poor bloke looks crook. He said that when he first came across Steve Smith he was a talented young bowler getting good turn. Now he says his action is wrse, he throws both his arms back which stops his forward momentum and opens himself up to get the forward momentum. "Hes never going to be consistant bowling like that"
He reckons the change in his action is because of 20/20 and one day cricket. He said Warne played 20 tests before he played a one dayer and he advocates that Smith and others shouldnt be playing anything other than first class cricket.Smith should be working with Warnie all the time. He says we are trying to develop our spinners too quickly and not giving them time to learn their craft. He says we are throwing them in too early before they have a chance to really groove their action which in turn gives them the confidence they need in their action. In his words we are just burning them off and getting the next one.
When they went back to Warne and Odonnell presenting the show Odonnell said to Warne "youve been working with him a bit,(smith) what do you think" and Warne basically implied Smith wasnt doing what Warne had showed him and that he needed to do a hell of a lot more practice.
As I cant record it hopefully this gives all who didnt see it an idea of what it was about. Its a shame it wasn't a longer and more in depth segment.
Click to expand...

Yeah I took the same thing from it. Warne and Jenner think smith still has 2-3 years before he is ready. Jenner said in the paper on sunday he likes and is excited by smith but its the 24 year old smith not the present smith he means. They could be both throwing off, they are both good card players, but i doubt it.

They have smith and everyone saying he is there as number 6 and for his fielding and enthusiasm etc ; and..... oh yeah, bowl a few overs of legspin. Well he doesn't look a number 6 at test level so unless his few overs of legspin measure up he will be another spinner for the chop. There is a long list of test batsman who had legspin as a second string to their bow but once they get a spot in the line-up they drop the legspin because its not test standard and takes too much work.
 
macca, your lad expanding his action in games sounds like a good thing. im the opposite, my actions shrinks in matches, i bowl my best stuff in nets. i need to make sure next season that this isnt the case.

when my action fails my fallback has been getting better and better the more ive played, especially this summer just gone. i tend to take energy out of the action first, and often il go around the wicket. the problem is that when i play matches back to back without practice (which when im playing saturday, sunday and wednesday, often every week through the whole season, ends up happening most weeks!) i have a tendancy to adopt the lower energy action more and more, and my stock action ends up getting worse throughout the season instead of better.

im finding the same with indoor. because im playing so much indoor im not practicing at all. and my action isnt developing, because indoor is so counter-productive to leg spin. we never ever get a new ball (with a seam on it), and the old ball is so hard to turn on the indoor surface where its so polished from batsmen standing on it. so i have to bowl round the wicket with really negative lines to keep my economy rate under control. i might start bowling seam up indoor and use it for improving my fielding and batting more than my bowling. whenever i have a practice session my action comes along massively. i really need to get more practice in amongst my gym work or il end up really strong by pre season, but my action will be totally foreign to me and il end up back at square one lol.
 
sadspinner said:
Jenner here on ninemsn. Click his picture for the video. He certainly thinks very highly of smith.
http://wwos.ninemsn.com.au/cricket/cricketshow/
Click to expand...

Good work Saddo finding that clip so fast just after ChippyBen and Macca had been talking about it! Yep - that's what I 've been saying - Shane Warne needs to stop the gambling and start investing his time and efforts back into the game. Write a Philpott style book and produce an in-depth video on the subject looking at the subject properly. He should be integral to the development of spin bowling in Australia in the way that Jenner here suggests.
 
Jim2109 said:
macca, your lad expanding his action in games sounds like a good thing. im the opposite, my actions shrinks in matches, i bowl my best stuff in nets. i need to make sure next season that this isnt the case.

when my action fails my fallback has been getting better and better the more ive played, especially this summer just gone. i tend to take energy out of the action first, and often il go around the wicket. the problem is that when i play matches back to back without practice (which when im playing saturday, sunday and wednesday, often every week through the whole season, ends up happening most weeks!) i have a tendancy to adopt the lower energy action more and more, and my stock action ends up getting worse throughout the season instead of better.

im finding the same with indoor. because im playing so much indoor im not practicing at all. and my action isnt developing, because indoor is so counter-productive to leg spin. we never ever get a new ball (with a seam on it), and the old ball is so hard to turn on the indoor surface where its so polished from batsmen standing on it. so i have to bowl round the wicket with really negative lines to keep my economy rate under control. i might start bowling seam up indoor and use it for improving my fielding and batting more than my bowling. whenever i have a practice session my action comes along massively. i really need to get more practice in amongst my gym work or il end up really strong by pre season, but my action will be totally foreign to me and il end up back at square one lol.
Click to expand...

I find mine shrinks bowling to team mates in the nets too. I'm going to take some advice Macca gave a while ago and put a bloody great line down the pitch and force myself to follow through to it. Its so frustrating because I can bowl some good stuff but my team mates rarely see it!!
 
Jim2109 said:
we never ever get a new ball (with a seam on it), and the old ball is so hard to turn on the indoor surface where its so polished from batsmen standing on it.
Click to expand...

That ball and surface sounds completely different from the indoor set-up in my sons comp. The ball has this big hard seam that swings and spins like crazy. It cuts into your 3rd finger more than the outdoor ball so you have to use an indoor practise ball that hasn't got such a seam or you will get a blister for sure if you bowl the match ball too much. And whatever is on the floor allows plenty of spin albeit a bit slow.

That ball and surface you describe is all set up for batsmen isn't it ?

Indoor is good just to bowl 2-3 overs under pressure in the off-season but it has stopped us experimenting as much in the winter.

The Waugh twins were champions at Indoor cricket. The Boyce twins both played indoor for Austaralia and Cameron Boyce reckons it helped him develop accuracy for his legspinners.
 
the new balls have that hard cutting seam on them. but they dont use new balls unless the old one breaks basically. even for league matches! so i never get to bowl with the seam. i have my own practice ball and that has the seam and i turn it round corners on the same surface in the nets (its slightly newer though so a bit more grippy). the indoor arena needs re-carpeting. its really old and worn, but its worn shiny rather than rough so the ball skids on more than it grips. the seamed ball would still turn nicely though if we got to use one.

having said that, i saw another leggie in there the other week who was turning the ball huge with what i think was still an older ball. but he plays for one of the top teams and id imagine is probably an ECB premier standard player, or somewhere close. on occasion il get the ball to turn nicely, but its not consistent enough to rely on, so i have to bowl negative lines otherwise i either get wided or smashed back past my ears.

the new ball does swing like mad as well as you say. i was bowling seam up in the nets messing about the other day and swinging it huge. my fast bowler friend reckons i present the seam perfectly upright as well, he was watching from behind the stumps. i can do the same in outdoor nets with a proper ball. ive been tempted at times to adopt fast bowling as im built for it a lot better than i am for leg spin. but its just so boring. as you said the other day, most leggies could pick up a ball and bowl decent medium pace with it almost straight away. im probably faster than 90% of the bowlers at my club and its my 2nd discipline lol. leg spin is a real challenge.
 
I think here at about 5.20 warne bowls what looks like a big leg break seam wise, but according to his description might be the slider.Or is it the round the loop backspinner not well executed? He definitely has the full palm facing the batsman so probably more of a slider. I do not think it is an attempted big leg break as there does not seem to be as many revs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT1HhHntF2o

Having seen it again it looks like a big leg break with some backspin!

In the following delivery he bowls another one and the new zealander simon doull calls it a slider. Two to keep in your video library dave.
 
sadspinner said:
I think here at about 5.20 warne bowls what looks like a big leg break seam wise, but according to his description might be the slider.Or is it the round the loop backspinner not well executed? He definitely has the full palm facing the batsman so probably more of a slider. I do not think it is an attempted big leg break as there does not seem to be as many revs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT1HhHntF2o

Having seen it again it looks like a big leg break with some backspin!

In the following delivery he bowls another one and the new zealander simon doull calls it a slider. Two to keep in your video library dave.
Click to expand...


that is a mighty interesting delivery, he looks incredibly rusty, total shadow of his former self but on first look i would say its a slider as the seam is horizontal to the batsman and its definitely coming out of the front of the hand.
 
GoldenArm said:
that is a mighty interesting delivery, he looks incredibly rusty, total shadow of his former self but on first look i would say its a slider as the seam is horizontal to the batsman and its definitely coming out of the front of the hand.
Click to expand...

Big Leg Break at 5.20 surely the ball comes out with the seam at 90 degrees to the line of flight, for it to be the OBS/Slider/Zooter we'd have been able to see seam and it would have been alligned with the pitch (vertical with back-spin).
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Big Leg Break at 5.20 surely the ball comes out with the seam at 90 degrees to the line of flight, for it to be the OBS/Slider/Zooter we'd have been able to see seam and it would have been alligned with the pitch (vertical with back-spin).
Click to expand...

Big leg break for sure. The only way to bowl the big leg break is out the front of the hand. I remember years ago when a car was filmed for instance, the rate of frames on a film meant that the cars wheels looked like they were going backwards even though it was driving forwards. Do you reckon with scrambled seam deliveries the actual direction of turn is distorted by the film???
 
No, but I reckon the idea for calling the OBS the slider or zooter came about through the fact that it's almost nigh on impossible to bowl and that when you do attempt to, you have to be satisfied that it is going to come out wrong some or much of the time and come out with a scrambled seam. Which then means that there's a big chance the ball is going to land on the smooth stuff with some degree of back-spin and obviously slide on or zoot through rather that get some purchase with the seam and stall/turn.
 
My son had a good day with the bat and ball in the 1sts v 2nds in his club age group match-up. He got the most overs to bowl of any bowler on either team and finished 0/9 off 4 consecutive overs. Could have had a couple of wickets and in fact one stumping given not out looked out to me, but i am a hopeless umpire.

He had to bowl to their best batsman, a lefthander who was really going for it when my kid came on. He scored all the runs off the legspin, but only 2 an over, whilst the righthanded partner didn't have a clue and could have, should have been out every ball.

Their were 3 spinners in the other team. They were ok but nowhere near as accurate as my kid. But more importantly he spins heaps more than all those 3 put together! He was spinning it too much for the right hander to hit. The lefty played him well though, little guy using the crease and playing off the back foot. My son came around the wicket to him in the end and that nearly worked when he edged a straight one but it went between wk and slip.

Pretty sure my son won any spin bowl off yesterday, he even got to play some nice shots against the offspinner and our other bats had no trouble smashing their legspinners. Thay play my sons legspin every week at training
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top