Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

[chippyben]

Ive posted 2 more videos of my action on youtube. They are more or less what I have been trying to acheive lately. In particular keeping side on for longer. Standing taller through the action( keeping better posture) which has got me up on my toes more and my left leg straightening and following through in a straight line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqFeAnzzOxY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzfRWhZCLVM
I have a few technical questions about my action that I hope someone can help me with.

1. I have noticed most bowlers step across themselves a little. Previously I used to step across myself a long way but have improved this a lot. What is the effect of stepping across myself too much or too little and what is ideal.

2. Is my delivery stride too long. I land with my front foot flat like Warne but looking at the video it looks very long.

3. When should I start to get up on my toes of the front foot. This has been something pointed out in other videos. My personal thoughts are the ball should be relaesed the fraction of a second before the front foot starts to push up onto the toes as I think if its released as I start pushing up it would muck up my control of length. But is this the point where the most power is put into the action?

Hope someone can help.

 

[Antipodean]

Great work Dave. Your work must be the most in depth research about backspinners if not the only research going round. The academic method you have used has made it a valuable resource to all leg spinners. Plus I can keep calling my OBS a slider!

I have to agree with Chippyben, great piece of research. I agree with your conclusion too, that the slider and zooter (the zooter in particular) are just different names for the OBS. Perhaps we should petition Warnie to finally write that book. He seems a lot more open and honest now that his living isn't based on guile and deceit (except when it comes to his poker.)

 

[chippyben]

I have to agree with Chippyben, great piece of research. I agree with your conclusion too, that the slider and zooter (the zooter in particular) are just different names for the OBS. Perhaps we should petition Warnie to finally write that book. He seems a lot more open and honest now that his living isn't based on guile and deceit (except when it comes to his poker.)

I think Warnie has other things on his mind at the moment, like breaking up with his ex wife again after knocking off Liz Hurley!

 

[macca]

i came across another interesting thing recently whilst reading Philpotts book A Spinners Yarn.In the most interesting chapter The Spinners Web he talks about various back spinners (flippers, sliders and OBS's) being passed along a lineage (sometimes from friend to friend, dooland to benaud, or in families, Colin and Russell McCool are the example he uses) and how most kept them to themselves as their closest guarded secrets. He talks about Grimmetts flippers as one category, then he puts Cec Pepper, Reg Pearce & the McCools into another which we can assume are various forms of slider as they are 'palmed out the of front of the hand', the Cec Pepper one sounds particularly deadly:

"the core of his attack was a back-spinner of his own, palmed out the front of the hand, which zipped off the wicket like a rocket. Like so many leg spinners, Cec would not discuss that delivery."

He then puts Benaud (who also pops up as a flipper user), Bob Simpson, Jim Higgs, Bob Holland, Trevor Hohns, Wal Walmsley and John Freeman into the Orthodox back spinner category. Also quite amusingly this was written, and I've just realised this is going to annoy the hell out of you Dave because this predates everything so far, in 1990 (it may even have been written before that as this is a collection of his reminiscences from his career) and Adrian Tucker is the young leg spinner he names as the next gen of aussie leggie. who knew the juggernaut himself would turn up two years later! what i'll do is scan the whole chapter in and post it on my blog so you can check it out for yourselves, its a very intriguing little piece and clearly along with 'Oh for some spin again' (which is also in this book) formed the seeds that would lead to his Guide to Wrist Spin Bowling. Check amazon for a cheap copy if you want one there's one going for £1.66 at the moment and all the rest are 20 quid plus. looks like i got mine at the right time!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spinners-Ya...0553/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1292194136&sr=8-2

Cec Pepper or Sgt Pepper as was his rank in WW2 ! One of the greatest players never to play a test and all because of the flipper! That was iverson, dooland and pepper all fought overseas in ww2. Pepper was one of the biggest hitters ever of a cricket ball some of his distances of his 6's were unbeleivable. But he was a great tall legspinner as well.

Grimmett showed Pepper how to fingerclick flippers so he could use it against bradman after grimmett retired and also so someone he thought would play tests would use it. He had to wait to benaud and then grimmett got pissed off because he thought benaud was taking credit for his invention. Pepper had several flippers all from grimmett. He trapped bradman lbw with a flipper in 1946 and when it was turned down he let bradman have it with some soldierly swearing that the don made sure he never got picked for oz and had to end his career in england where he lived the rest of his life.

Pepper was playing in the nsw v sa game where grimmett first tried his backspinning flipper. Pepper is intergral to the flipper story and to the fact grimmett bowled 5 flippers not 1.

 

[GoldenArm]

Cec Pepper or Sgt Pepper as was his rank in WW2 ! One of the greatest players never to play a test and all because of the flipper! That was iverson, dooland and pepper all fought overseas in ww2. Pepper was one of the biggest hitters ever of a cricket ball some of his distances of his 6's were unbeleivable. But he was a great tall legspinner as well.

Grimmett showed Pepper how to fingerclick flippers so he could use it against bradman after grimmett retired and also so someone he thought would play tests would use it. He had to wait to benaud and then grimmett got pissed off because he thought benaud was taking credit for his invention. Pepper had several flippers all from grimmett. He trapped bradman lbw with a flipper in 1946 and when it was turned down he let bradman have it with some soldierly swearing that the don made sure he never got picked for oz and had to end his career in england where he lived the rest of his life.

Pepper was playing in the nsw v sa game where grimmett first tried his backspinning flipper. Pepper is intergral to the flipper story and to the fact grimmett bowled 5 flippers not 1.

So are you saying Peppers palmed ball was a flipper then? have we got written evidence of this somewhere? i'd love to read it if there is.

 

[macca]

So are you saying Peppers palmed ball was a flipper then? have we got written evidence of this somewhere? i'd love to read it if there is.

No , but i know pepper bowled flippers, not just backspinning flippers. The ball he believed trapped bradman lbw in 1946 with was a flipper. In Roland Perrys bio of keith miller, miller described the incident and reckoned it was a peppers flipper but whitington at first slip thought it was a topspinner.

This article talks of his dreaded flipper ball, http://www.espncricinfo.com/fantasy/content/player/7104.html and he showed an english journalists his flippers and he told the story

 

[doctortran]

Ive posted 2 more videos of my action on youtube. They are more or less what I have been trying to acheive lately. In particular keeping side on for longer. Standing taller through the action( keeping better posture) which has got me up on my toes more and my left leg straightening and following through in a straight line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqFeAnzzOxY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzfRWhZCLVM
I have a few technical questions about my action that I hope someone can help me with.

1. I have noticed most bowlers step across themselves a little. Previously I used to step across myself a long way but have improved this a lot. What is the effect of stepping across myself too much or too little and what is ideal.

2. Is my delivery stride too long. I land with my front foot flat like Warne but looking at the video it looks very long.

3. When should I start to get up on my toes of the front foot. This has been something pointed out in other videos. My personal thoughts are the ball should be relaesed the fraction of a second before the front foot starts to push up onto the toes as I think if its released as I start pushing up it would muck up my control of length. But is this the point where the most power is put into the action?

Hope someone can help.

Leg spinners step over themselves to bowl it more leg side. To get maximum power you want everything aimed at the batsman, so theoretically not stepping over yourself is correct. However practically it doesn't hold up because you want to land it on the Bill O'Reilly blindspot just outside that leg stump. If you did try to aim everything at the batsman as per a fast bowler everything would go offside because that's what you're doing with your wrist.
In reality you are aiming your body outside leg stump to get it on leg stump.... which is why you don't open up square to the wicket... but open up square to leg stump or even outside leg stump.

Of course there are probably injury considerations as well but I have never had any one prove to me that stepping across yourself directly led to any injury. But if it does cause injury... yikes leg spin is even more so a naturally difficult art!

Delivery stride too long? No.

When should I start to get up on my toes of the front foot? First a question beforehand.... when you land on your front foot how much feel do you have? As in -- do you really try to feel the ground with your front foot? The power you get from driving all the way forward as you have tried for the last few weeks (and the residual effect of going onto your toes) is caused from having a steady base on the ground and then into the air hence pushing up. Therefore tip.... really feel the ground with your front foot.

Secondly about rhythm. It's really a natural thing, but perhaps what you are searching for is an essential reference point. Perhaps the most essential is when your front foot just barely touches the ground your arm should be right back and slightly away from your body. From there it's natural rhythm... i.e. natural depending on your leg drive and hip drive and other mechanics occurred. This will feel weird because you will feel like you are doing basically nothing for a while -- this actually increases the length of time of the delivery allowing you to apply more potential energy over time on the ball. Something to work on -- and perhaps handy a good time right now as you are bowling pace well in matches.

BTW it would be interesting to look at your fast bowling mechanics! Of course not in this forum....

 

[macca]

No , but i know pepper bowled flippers, not just backspinning flippers. The ball he believed trapped bradman lbw in 1946 with was a flipper. In Roland Perrys bio of keith miller, miller described the incident and reckoned it was a peppers flipper but whitington at first slip thought it was a topspinner.

This article talks of his dreaded flipper ball, http://www.espncricinfo.com/fantasy/content/player/7104.html and he showed an english journalists his flippers and he told the story

In 'art of cricket' bradman writes cec pepper 'had a ball that turned to the off by some means that still remained a mystery to me'. In millers luck, miller says pepper had a front of the hand flipper that was an offbreak and he bowled hutton and merchant with flippers in 45-46. grimmett showed pepper the flipper because of his large hands as well as to get bradman and have the ball bowled in tests.

 

[macca]

2. Is my delivery stride too long. I land with my front foot flat like Warne but looking at the video it looks very long.

I dont think so really , is it consistent ? You have built a good looking action up haven't you chippyben? lookin pro mate.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Macca, gald you're talking Flippers as that's the bit I'm working on now with my blog up-date. Did Abdul Quadir bowl flippers and around what period of his career was that happening and would the commentators of the time have noted the use of the Flippers do you think. What I'm after is a sense of whether when Warne introduced the Flipper to his reportoire how radical would that have been? Would the reaction at the time have been like the response that Mendis got when he started taking wickets with his Carrom Ball/Iverson Gleeson delivery?

 

[macca]

Macca, gald you're talking Flippers as that's the bit I'm working on now with my blog up-date. Did Abdul Quadir bowl flippers and around what period of his career was that happening and would the commentators of the time have noted the use of the Flippers do you think. What I'm after is a sense of whether when Warne introduced the Flipper to his reportoire how radical would that have been? Would the reaction at the time have been like the response that Mendis got when he started taking wickets with his Carrom Ball/Iverson Gleeson delivery?

Quadir bowled flippers, plural. He bowled a wrongun that was the offbreak flipper. He didn't have a big impact downunder but everyone knew he had a flipper then. He was accused of overdoing it.

Trevor hohns got botham with a wrongun in 89 in england. he spent 7 years learning he said. so they were around right up till warne, he made it famous though.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Any idea why Hohns took seven years to get it sussed?

 

[chippyben]

Leg spinners step over themselves to bowl it more leg side. To get maximum power you want everything aimed at the batsman, so theoretically not stepping over yourself is correct. However practically it doesn't hold up because you want to land it on the Bill O'Reilly blindspot just outside that leg stump. If you did try to aim everything at the batsman as per a fast bowler everything would go offside because that's what you're doing with your wrist.
In reality you are aiming your body outside leg stump to get it on leg stump.... which is why you don't open up square to the wicket... but open up square to leg stump or even outside leg stump.

Of course there are probably injury considerations as well but I have never had any one prove to me that stepping across yourself directly led to any injury. But if it does cause injury... yikes leg spin is even more so a naturally difficult art!

Delivery stride too long? No.

When should I start to get up on my toes of the front foot? First a question beforehand.... when you land on your front foot how much feel do you have? As in -- do you really try to feel the ground with your front foot? The power you get from driving all the way forward as you have tried for the last few weeks (and the residual effect of going onto your toes) is caused from having a steady base on the ground and then into the air hence pushing up. Therefore tip.... really feel the ground with your front foot.

Secondly about rhythm. It's really a natural thing, but perhaps what you are searching for is an essential reference point. Perhaps the most essential is when your front foot just barely touches the ground your arm should be right back and slightly away from your body. From there it's natural rhythm... i.e. natural depending on your leg drive and hip drive and other mechanics occurred. This will feel weird because you will feel like you are doing basically nothing for a while -- this actually increases the length of time of the delivery allowing you to apply more potential energy over time on the ball. Something to work on -- and perhaps handy a good time right now as you are bowling pace well in matches.

BTW it would be interesting to look at your fast bowling mechanics! Of course not in this forum....

Thanks for the reply.
Its almost like you are a mind reader. Ive been trying to delay my right arm as much as possible but I still need to exagerate it more I can see. I actually hit a purple patch one training session last week when I really delayed it and I could actually put a lot of force in the action and I was involuntarily grunting!! It does feel wierd delaying it so much though and I lapse back to rushing through often. I stop myself then and just bowl off one step for an over or two to get the timing right again.
Ive been struggling though to get a reference point for my arm so I'll try your suggestion.

I think with the stepping across myself I'll keep where Im at now as it feels comfortable and is only a small amount compared to what it was and Ive been getting good results lately. Ive noticed Warne used to step across himself a lot on some deliveries even when going around the wicket so his actual run up and delivery stride were in a very different direction to the actual delivery. But I guess he could do anything. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQieHjQjt6A at 2:40

I let you know how I get on with "feeling" the ground with my front foot.

Oddly I haven't thought of filming myself bowling pace. Ive actually never seen myself bowling it. I haven't been the same since the knee reco on my left leg though. Thats what pushed me to bowl legspin. I'll put one up soon although maybe not on the forum.

 

[chippyben]

I dont think so really , is it consistent ? You have built a good looking action up haven't you chippyben? lookin pro mate.

Thanks mate. Working on consistancy. I joked with Dave once that this forum is like therapy for leg spinners to stop us going crazy so all the encouragement helps.

 

[macca]

Any idea why Hohns took seven years to get it sussed?

He was a Queenslander, like Boris here, and they are slow learners.

He played for 20 years on and off for Qld. I heard him being interviewed a couple of weeks ago on radio. He says his bowling didn't get to test level till he gave up his day job and trained all year round when he was a rebel tourist to SA.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

I'm sure we've all seen this before - but this look remarkably like Warney here is demo-ing the out of the front of the hand Flipper AKA the Off-spinning type? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tObCnRsIY1U&feature=related it's so different to the one he demo's with Mark Nicholas on the 9MSN video and Jenner demos on the BBC and the Cloverdale - I never noticed before. what do you reckon?

 

[chippyben]

I'm sure we've all seen this before - but this look remarkably like Warney here is demo-ing the out of the front of the hand Flipper AKA the Off-spinning type? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tObCnRsIY1U&feature=related it's so different to the one he demo's with Mark Nicholas on the 9MSN video and Jenner demos on the BBC and the Cloverdale - I never noticed before. what do you reckon?

Ive seen this video before and had no idea what he's on about. Isn't that just a leg break forced out the front of the hand ala the big leg break. Another deception maybe??
My understanding of the flipper is the click forces the wrist to rotate in the same direction as an off break. He is rotating the fingers and wrist in the direction for a leg break.

 

[chippyben]

Had a bowl in the nets last night and completely lost my rhythm. I was bowling probably some of the worst stuff Ive ever bowled. Massive long hops and full tosses with no spin on it. I couldn't believe it could be going so wrong.
So I stopped and went back to basics without bowling. I just stood in the nets practicing various aspects singly and then gradually putting them together. I must have looked really odd doing some kind of wierd dance up and down the wicket. No wierder than the group doing Thai chi on the other side of the field though.
Once I started to get some rhythm back I concentrated on my feet landing which I must say started to get some pleasing results. It started to feel like a really fluid motion. Its hard to explain but it felt like there was no shock on the leg, when I landed the back leg gave and then pushed off and rolled onto the front foot. It seemed to keep the back foot grounded longer too.
The closet thing I get equate it to it when a stuntman jumps off a height and lands and does a somersault. The force continues on but there is no jarring on the body.
As light faded I worked on finding a reference point for where my bowling arm should be. I tried having the ball right in front of my face onthe downswing as my back foot landed which was working ok, but the real problem I think is I give it 100% with my right arm. Trying to everything with my right arm and not involving my body. It sounds rediculous that I cant slow it down and get it to act in unison with the rest of the action. I guess its just so ingrained from my pace bowling and something I just have to keep working on.
Thats how Im getting on anyhow.

 

[macca]

Had a bowl in the nets last night and completely lost my rhythm. I was bowling probably some of the worst stuff Ive ever bowled. Massive long hops and full tosses with no spin on it. I couldn't believe it could be going so wrong.

Lucky it wasn't a game and you got the yikes. You need an instant recovery fix in those situations. something you can practise.

it's different for legspinners than pace bowlers and offspinners even you reckon? Like Jim2019 was saying recently he was bowling medium pacers to show the medium pacers how easy it is too bowl medium pacers.

i can bowl seam up or offspin straight away after months of not bowling, maybe a couple of bad ones to start, but legspin is much harder to nail, all the time, even when you are bowling lots of it for a whole season. So your'e recovery, i call it, needs to be better than other bowlers and more practised. dont you reckon ?

My kid recovered good on saturday. First 2 balls were 2 shockers to start with, shortest all year, lucky only 2 singles. Than switched on for 10 dots to finish his 2 overs.

 

[chippyben]

Lucky it wasn't a game and you got the yikes. You need an instant recovery fix in those situations. something you can practise.

it's different for legspinners than pace bowlers and offspinners even you reckon? Like Jim2019 was saying recently he was bowling medium pacers to show the medium pacers how easy it is too bowl medium pacers.

i can bowl seam up or offspin straight away after months of not bowling, maybe a couple of bad ones to start, but legspin is much harder to nail, all the time, even when you are bowling lots of it for a whole season. So your'e recovery, i call it, needs to be better than other bowlers and more practised. dont you reckon ?

My kid recovered good on saturday. First 2 balls were 2 shockers to start with, shortest all year, lucky only 2 singles. Than switched on for 10 dots to finish his 2 overs.

Unfortunately as Im still working on my action I don't really have anything to fall back on when it goes wrong. Usually if I bowl off one step and think about a good rhythmic feel I can get it back but then its just slow loopy rubbish that any quick footed batsman can easily deal with. I do go through the things I could be doing wrong but in a match situation that could mean it takes me a few overs to pull it back if I was lucky enough to get that many.
What do you do with your son when it goes wrong?
I reckon Im about 80% there with my action. I still reckon Ive got another year to go before its where I want it and Ive praticed enough to get some muscle memory.
I'd love to have it like my pace action. I don't think about anything with it. I just think where I want to bowl it and most of the time it goes there. Having said that there was a lot of practice to get it there. It never goes wrong and I only bowl it in matches these days. There is a big difference in bowling pace in the general right direction and actually bowling very accurately and to a plan and getting wickets though. I have to defend my old trade a bit!! but yeah mediocre seam up bowling does get away with a lot more than leg spin. Offspin well they are just slow off cutters aren't they??
I think if anything I overthink things sometimes and try too many things at once and throw myself out of kilter but when I look how much Ive improved in the last 5 months Im still pretty happy with things.
Do you still play Macca?