Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

The zooter was either warne's invention that was a slider, not the round the loop one or else something like Macca explained that is palmed out of the hand with little backspin as Holland used to bowl it.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

As Jim said if you use the fingers as the last part imparting the spin it goes flatter. And as Dave says when not concentrating it seems to be the looped one that comes out.

Was reading part of a book by jack pollard about the history of leg spin bowlers and he gives most credit to Simpson, especially with regards to the leg stump line and the fact that this line helps in getting the ball in the batsmans blind spot. He also states that many of the revs were due to an abnormally strong wrist.

Also states that bill brown reckons warne spun it more than any leggie he had seen including grimmett.

Then pollard states that jenner took him under his wing and taught him the topspinner that he sqeezes under the batsman's bat!! From this moment on I will be reading this book with suspicion. Pity as it seems a nice history book on leggies starting with those that bowled under arm 150 years ago.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Good videos dave. I understood philpotts big and small leg break drill as you. Careful, you were going to knock your block off at more than one point

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

As Jim said if you use the fingers as the last part imparting the spin it goes flatter. And as Dave says when not concentrating it seems to be the looped one that comes out.

Was reading part of a book by jack pollard about the history of leg spin bowlers and he gives most credit to Simpson, especially with regards to the leg stump line and the fact that this line helps in getting the ball in the batsmans blind spot. He also states that many of the revs were due to an abnormally strong wrist.

Also states that bill brown reckons warne spun it more than any leggie he had seen including grimmett.

Then pollard states that jenner took him under his wing and taught him the topspinner that he sqeezes under the batsman's bat!! From this moment on I will be reading this book with suspicion. Pity as it seems a nice history book on leggies starting with those that bowled under arm 150 years ago.

Yeah Bill Brown, as an old man, saw warne in the nets and said he was the biggest spinner he saw. Warne quizzed Brown on grimmetts flipper in the same meeting.
Benaud reckons in "my spin on cricket" that Philpott and Sincock spun more than warne. Fleetwood Smith was possibly the biggest spinner of all the australian legspinners.
Mailley was a bigger spinner than grimmett according to most observers. Grimmett was after fast spin with lots of topspin not always big spin and only spun it sideways a lot against the weaker batsmen.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I'm here having a look but I've had a few beers, so how coherent I'll be is anyone guess.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

some of the Grimmett tactics are interesting. i guess it has a lot to do with his era, players were more technically correct than they are now, il bet there werent many (if any?) sweep shots being played.

but its interesting that he says he used the side spin predominantly against weaker batsmen (im assuming that to mean the tail or those who lacked a good drive). ive come up against 2 or 3 batsmen that were clearly of an excellent standard, and the more turn i got the more boundaries i got smashed for. particularly against a left hander.

against tail enders (even most middle order players) turn just has them swinging at thin air. however ive found this to be a negative, im yet to take the wicket of anyone that doesnt bat top 3! if theyre swinging at thin air then how are you supposed to get them out? lol. id have had a few LBW's if the umpires werent just opposition batsmen.

it seems to me that good batsmen are most susceptible to drift and not turn. whilst lesser batsmen are most susceptible to length. it makes you wonder sometimes if its even worth turning the ball! the most successful bowlers at the moment seem to be those who either cant turn it much, or choose not to. or is it just that you need a plan? good line and length will work regardless of what else happens, its called a "good" line and length because its hard to hit. but turn (and the variations of it) require careful planning, otherwise youre just going to confuse the batsman with no end goal. its like breaking into a bank and sticking all the money into bags without having an escape route. or at least thats how it seems to me.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

As Jim said if you use the fingers as the last part imparting the spin it goes flatter. And as Dave says when not concentrating it seems to be the looped one that comes out.

Was reading part of a book by jack pollard about the history of leg spin bowlers and he gives most credit to Simpson, especially with regards to the leg stump line and the fact that this line helps in getting the ball in the batsmans blind spot. He also states that many of the revs were due to an abnormally strong wrist.

Also states that bill brown reckons warne spun it more than any leggie he had seen including grimmett.

Then pollard states that jenner took him under his wing and taught him the topspinner that he sqeezes under the batsman's bat!! From this moment on I will be reading this book with suspicion. Pity as it seems a nice history book on leggies starting with those that bowled under arm 150 years ago.

Now there's am idea - the physical blindspot, this is real -is Saddo alluding to the fact that the blind spot can be exploited in bowling?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

some of the Grimmett tactics are interesting. i guess it has a lot to do with his era, players were more technically correct than they are now, il bet there werent many (if any?) sweep shots being played.

but its interesting that he says he used the side spin predominantly against weaker batsmen (im assuming that to mean the tail or those who lacked a good drive). ive come up against 2 or 3 batsmen that were clearly of an excellent standard, and the more spin i got the more boundaries i got smashed for. particularly against a left hander.

against tail enders (even most middle order players) turn just has them swinging at thin air. however ive found this to be a negative, im yet to take the wicket of anyone that doesnt bat top 3! if theyre swinging at thin air then how are you supposed to get them out? lol. id have had a few LBW's if the umpires werent just opposition batsmen.

it seems to me that good batsmen are most susceptible to drift and not turn. whilst lesser batsmen are most susceptible to length. it makes you wonder sometimes if its even worth turning the ball! the most successful bowlers at the moment seem to be those who either cant turn it much, or choose not to.

This is moving the discussion back to my idea that accuracy maybe the key to any bowling. Accuracy and the variation of length looks to be a winning formula. I like the bank analogy. With the blokes that just swing at the ball, I've found that topspinners work well or Leg Breaks with top spin mingled in because the height difference of the bounce seems to be their un-doing. So maybe I am reading the batsmem more than I realised?

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

This is moving the discussion back to my idea that accuracy maybe the key to any bowling. Accuracy and the variation of length looks to be a winning formula.

i added to that post just after you read it lol. i think the justification for turn is to have a plan. Warne is up there with the biggest turners in history, and his figures dont lie. Murali likewise. interestingly il bet if you count back through all of Warnes wickets, more of them came from straight balls than anything else.

but again, thats bowling to a plan. he set them up for it with big turners.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Good videos dave. I understood philpotts big and small leg break drill as you. Careful, you were going to knock your block off at more than one point

Yeah one of the clips that was recorded has me saying 'And mind you don't knock your teeth out'. I shoud have a look and maybe send it to you've been framed and get myself 200 quid - I'll have to look to see if I'm being dead serious before it happens.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

The big wicket taking spinners in my club are in two catergories -

1. The old geezers with no flick left in their wrists
2. The China man bowler who claims he can't turn the ball on 95% of the wickets

Their success comes through variation of length, flight and speed and bowling at the stumps. Similarly the young kids that bowl against adults and take 5 for 11 and figures like that are loopy flighters of the ball, that bowl slow but straight. So there's a lot of justification for bowling at the stumps.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

i added to that post just after you read it lol. i think the justification for turn is to have a plan. Warne is up there with the biggest turners in history, and his figures dont lie. Murali likewise. interestingly il bet if you count back through all of Warnes wickets, more of them came from straight balls than anything else.

but again, thats bowling to a plan. he set them up for it with big turners.

The big wicket taking spinners in my club are in two catergories -

1. The old geezers with no flick left in their wrists
2. The China man bowler who claims he can't turn the ball on 95% of the wickets

Their success comes through variation of length, flight and speed and bowling at the stumps. Similarly the young kids that bowl against adults and take 5 for 11 and figures like that are loopy flighters of the ball, that bowl slow but straight. So there's a lot of justification for bowling at the stumps.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Now there's am idea - the physical blindspot, this is real -is Saddo alluding to the fact that the blind spot can be exploited in bowling?

This is grimmett on the blind spot from page 58 59 of "on cricket"........" there is a spot on the batsmans legside where sight of the ball is momentarily lost if the batsman doesn't turn far enough round to get two eyes on it. The nose always obscures part of the radius of vision of each eye; unless both eyes are the same distance from an object, the one that is farther away will not be able to see it until it passes into an area not obscured by the nose.
Bowlers who come up against a batsman with a one eyed stance should remember he is bound to be weak on the legside"

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

This is grimmett on the blind spot from page 58 59 of "on cricket"........" there is a spot on the batsmans legside where sight of the ball is momentarily lost if the batsman doesn't turn far enough round to get two eyes on it. The nose always obscures part of the radius of vision of each eye; unless both eyes are the same distance from an object, the one that is farther away will not be able to see it until it passes into an area not obscured by the nose.
Bowlers who come up against a batsman with a one eyed stance should remember he is bound to be weak on the legside"

I just had a look at some info on the blindspot and although it is real I don't really think it has that much potential as something you could exploit, as you say if you've got a side on 'One eyed batsman' there may be an increased chance of him screwing up.

With regards my click out of the fingers I've been looking/listening again and it's not the thumb it is the fingers that create the sound.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I just had a look at some info on the blindspot and although it is real I don't really think it has that much potential as something you could exploit, as you say if you've got a side on 'One eyed batsman' there may be an increased chance of him screwing up.

With regards my click out of the fingers I've been looking/listening again and it's not the thumb it is the fingers that create the sound.

in theory, if you pitch it really full and deceive with flight it could work. if the batsman sees it going legside he will just rotate though. this is where drift is key, if it doesnt drift then youve got little chance of finding the blindspot.

you can however bowl to a plan i reckon. keep pitching off stump, gradually move the batsman wider on the off side so hes coming across his stumps. then throw up a yorker 2 feet down the leg side and hope for a stumping chance. most club batsmen cant resist a swing at a wide long-hop, and in doing so theyll be off balance and most likely stepping out of their crease. make sure the wicket keeper knows what is coming.

with regards the best club wicket takers bowling straight - im convinced this is because club bowlers dont create plans, and they cant read batsmen. in fairness its a difficult thing to do when youre only bowling a handful of overs at best. thats why you need to field at mid-on or mid-off and really pay attention to batting techniques whilst youre waiting for your chance to bowl. fresh batsmen are easy targets, so that only applies to settled batsmen. once you take a wicket the fresh meat should be easy pickings in the first over or 2 so long as you dont gift them runs.

if you spin the ball hard then you need a plan. if you just throw the ball up on a "good" line and length with big turn then youll become predictable. if you plan to bowl 3 big leg breaks turning from middle to outside off, and then to throw up a variation then youll probably get more success. Warne definitely planned well ahead, i wouldnt be surprised if he was thinking overs ahead of himself when bowling at a settled batsman. you cant just bowl your stock ball a dozen times and then think "its time for a variation now to see what happens". the variation needs to have been thought up several balls/overs earlier.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

in theory, if you pitch it really full and deceive with flight it could work. if the batsman sees it going legside he will just rotate though. this is where drift is key, if it doesnt drift then youve got little chance of finding the blindspot.

you can however bowl to a plan i reckon. keep pitching off stump, gradually move the batsman wider on the off side so hes coming across his stumps. then throw up a yorker 2 feet down the leg side and hope for a stumping chance. most club batsmen cant resist a swing at a wide long-hop, and in doing so theyll be off balance and most likely stepping out of their crease. make sure the wicket keeper knows what is coming.

with regards the best club wicket takers bowling straight - im convinced this is because club bowlers dont create plans, and they cant read batsmen. in fairness its a difficult thing to do when youre only bowling a handful of overs at best. thats why you need to field at mid-on or mid-off and really pay attention to batting techniques whilst youre waiting for your chance to bowl. fresh batsmen are easy targets, so that only applies to settled batsmen. once you take a wicket the fresh meat should be easy pickings in the first over or 2 so long as you dont gift them runs.

if you spin the ball hard then you need a plan. if you just throw the ball up on a "good" line and length with big turn then youll become predictable. if you plan to bowl 3 big leg breaks turning from middle to outside off, and then to throw up a variation then youll probably get more success. Warne definitely planned well ahead, i wouldnt be surprised if he was thinking overs ahead of himself when bowling at a settled batsman. you cant just bowl your stock ball a dozen times and then think "its time for a variation now to see what happens". the variation needs to have been thought up several balls/overs earlier.

These blokes do, one's been playing in excess of 40 years and the other 20 years. They set their own field, start bowling then change the field in accordance with what they've seen the bat doing and then within a few more balls they've got a wicket or totally dried the runs up, both of them have averages in the 3's and one of them - the younger bloke has the clubs record for most wickets in a season albeit 90% tailenders. I don't think they have the same cunning as Warne, but then they've only got 6 overs or so to get their wickets in.

Another bloke I know who used to bat well when he was younger came up with a potentially useful suggestion which might help with the length problem that I have. When I practice I bowl at a certain length but it's in relation to the stumps or on a length indicated by a marker on the pitch. It's generally a fuller length, but I still have trouble with changing it in accordance with the batsmen. This bloke suggested that I make some kind of mark just to the side of the track before the game, he said score a line with your foot that you can see that indicates a good length to bowl to and then when the bloke gets in and he's not being caused any problems you've got some kind of indication of the length that you should bowl to and either reduce or increase the length.

 

[The Edge Of Willow]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Heh, hello all, it seems I have been totally neglecting this thread.

I have made some progress with my bowling; my front arm is working somewhat better, resulting in a nice increase in pace, and I seem it be slowly working the problem of tossing the ball too high out of my game. Still I'm much the same in terms of consistency as I ever was; all over the place.

The improved use of my front arm has actually caused a bit of an increase inconsistency in I think, the increases speed at which my are comes through seems to have resulted in more mistakes upon releasing the ball. Sometimes it feels like my wrist hasn't adjusted to the new arm speed yet, like I'm already through my action before my wrist action is complete, resulting in the ball being pushed out with hardly any revs.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Heh, hello all, it seems I have been totally neglecting this thread.

I have made some progress with my bowling; my front arm is working somewhat better, resulting in a nice increase in pace, and I seem it be slowly working the problem of tossing the ball too high out of my game. Still I'm much the same in terms of consistency as I ever was; all over the place.

The improved use of my front arm has actually caused a bit of an increase inconsistency in I think, the increases speed at which my are comes through seems to have resulted in more mistakes upon releasing the ball. Sometimes it feels like my wrist hasn't adjusted to the new arm speed yet, like I'm already through my action before my wrist action is complete, resulting in the ball being pushed out with hardly any revs.

you have a very similar issue to what i currently have. ive increased my speed in every aspect, but the timing hasnt followed suit.

if i slow my action right down (it feels really weird, like im moving in slow motion) then i can find the timing and accuracy again, and then gradually work back up to the new pace, hopefully finding rhythm along the way.

the other method i think might work is simply to stick at it, but get in as much practice as you can in a short period of time (e.g. try to practice every day or 2 for a couple of weeks or more). the continuous practice means you dont lose progress between sessions, so in theory by the end of it you should be somewhere close to where you were before, but with added pace, and probably added spin as well. this is hard to do this time of year in England though, you have the added benefit of being in Australia and it currently being summertime! (as if your winter isnt better than our summer anyway lol)

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

It's raining here and the snow is beginning to thaw, we've had 5 days of snow and ice and it's doing my head in being stuck indoors not being able to get out anywhere and have a bowl. We need some wind coming in from the west off the Atlantic to give some warmer wet weather rather than this freezing cold Siberian Easterly weather!

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

It's raining here and the snow is beginning to thaw, we've had 5 days of snow and ice and it's doing my head in being stuck indoors not being able to get out anywhere and have a bowl. We need some wind coming in from the west off the Atlantic to give some warmer wet weather rather than this freezing cold Siberian Easterly weather!

the state of the snow here i think il be lucky to practice this side of January. after the Xmas weekend has passed im going to try and get a couple of hours at the local cricket centre indoor net facilities. i want to do some batting practice with the bowling machine as well anyway, so i can do an hour of batting and an hour of bowling. plus if my bowling is rubbish i can bat instead, rather than waste the time/money if i cant find any rhythm.