someblokecalleddave
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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
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sadspinner;382672 said:
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Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
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macca
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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
Eric Hollies was one of the greatest legspinners in history. Certainly amongst the top three with Grimmett and Warne for accuracy. There was a lot going on that affected his test career, including a war with hitler. He knew how to win over aussie crowds as well, when he got his chance. O Reilly reckons hollies was another victim of mcc legspin aversion at the time.
sadspinner;382669 said:
Eric Hollies was one of the greatest legspinners in history. Certainly amongst the top three with Grimmett and Warne for accuracy. There was a lot going on that affected his test career, including a war with hitler. He knew how to win over aussie crowds as well, when he got his chance. O Reilly reckons hollies was another victim of mcc legspin aversion at the time.
sadspinner
Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
Macca what you say is true. He seemed to have lived for cricket and even left school early to continue practicing working as a plumber with his dad who abetted him in his passion. He said he practiced hard every moment he had, and was dissappointed that the youngsters in his side did not practice as much. Benaud had a very high opinion of him in a book I have where he said he spinned the ball like a top, even though Benaud goes the conventional way in saying that you have to spin the ball hard, then length and line will come with practice. Benaud also states that his accuracy and spin improved when he shortened his run up, and when he kept his eye fixed on the spot he wanted to bowl on. Do you others do this ie fix your gaze on the spot you want to bowl on?
Macca what you say is true. He seemed to have lived for cricket and even left school early to continue practicing working as a plumber with his dad who abetted him in his passion. He said he practiced hard every moment he had, and was dissappointed that the youngsters in his side did not practice as much. Benaud had a very high opinion of him in a book I have where he said he spinned the ball like a top, even though Benaud goes the conventional way in saying that you have to spin the ball hard, then length and line will come with practice. Benaud also states that his accuracy and spin improved when he shortened his run up, and when he kept his eye fixed on the spot he wanted to bowl on. Do you others do this ie fix your gaze on the spot you want to bowl on?
sadspinner
Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
A couple of days ago I tried to practice on a 5 a side footbal pitch with artificial turf, I was qiute disconcerted as the turn was really minimal even with my attempted big leg break. Also the bounce was reaaaally low. I usually turn my arm on a tarmac abandoned tennis court and here the bounce is soo much more that it amplifies any turn you get. Oh and it was a very wet football pitch. I took some positives though. As I was bowling along the centre line from one part of the pitch to the other, I had 'visual guidance' upto the stumps as to where I had to bowl with the line in line with middle stump. At least for once I can say I bowled straight due to the lack of turn and bounce. Got a few LBW's and bowled me thinks.
I can now sympathise with what it is like when you have a wicket that does not turn and bounce. Bounce to me though seems to be the most important factor.
Something else, every one says that bowling into a breeze helps drift and flight. What do you reckon a breeze in knots would add up to. In my country at this moment it is nearly alwatys windy upto March and bowling into a 14 knot wind hinders rather than helps. Bowling with the wind helps. but I tend to lose rhythm as it affects the run up.
On another front they are starting coaching for beginners in the only real club here. Unfortunately it is on Saturdays when I have 7 or 24 hour shifts. So I do not feel like coughing up 200stg just to go sporadically, and at any rate at 42 I would feel qiute embarassed as I presume they are looking for youngsters, even though they say it is for 18 year olds and over.
A couple of days ago I tried to practice on a 5 a side footbal pitch with artificial turf, I was qiute disconcerted as the turn was really minimal even with my attempted big leg break. Also the bounce was reaaaally low. I usually turn my arm on a tarmac abandoned tennis court and here the bounce is soo much more that it amplifies any turn you get. Oh and it was a very wet football pitch. I took some positives though. As I was bowling along the centre line from one part of the pitch to the other, I had 'visual guidance' upto the stumps as to where I had to bowl with the line in line with middle stump. At least for once I can say I bowled straight due to the lack of turn and bounce. Got a few LBW's and bowled me thinks.
I can now sympathise with what it is like when you have a wicket that does not turn and bounce. Bounce to me though seems to be the most important factor.
Something else, every one says that bowling into a breeze helps drift and flight. What do you reckon a breeze in knots would add up to. In my country at this moment it is nearly alwatys windy upto March and bowling into a 14 knot wind hinders rather than helps. Bowling with the wind helps. but I tend to lose rhythm as it affects the run up.
On another front they are starting coaching for beginners in the only real club here. Unfortunately it is on Saturdays when I have 7 or 24 hour shifts. So I do not feel like coughing up 200stg just to go sporadically, and at any rate at 42 I would feel qiute embarassed as I presume they are looking for youngsters, even though they say it is for 18 year olds and over.
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
hey all, i just thought i would update my progress. I got phillpots book, which is very helpful. i am now achieving body drive, and a lot of revs on the ball consequently. Just a question, i was thinking abotu what would be more useful as a stock ball. The big leg-break or the small leg-break?
hey all, i just thought i would update my progress. I got phillpots book, which is very helpful. i am now achieving body drive, and a lot of revs on the ball consequently. Just a question, i was thinking abotu what would be more useful as a stock ball. The big leg-break or the small leg-break?
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
the 2 nets i practice at during summer are both in notoriously windy areas. probably because they are surrounded by miles of open flat fields at the bottom of a valley area. but either way, they both generally experience winds blowing in from 3rd man (which is very handy for me!), and on some days those winds can be 50mph+ gusts.
to my mind, the absolute best bowling ive ever produced was on probably the windiest day ive ever bowled. its hard to remember if it really was that good or not as it was very early in my development, so i may just remember it as better than it was. but the ball was drifting and dipping huge, and because it dips harder youve got less forward velocity on the ball when it pitches and so it turns more as well. the last time i practised (earlier this month) there were 20-35mph winds with 45mph gusts coming in from 3rd man and i found that helpful, even though i was very out of touch.
i dont honestly believe that there can ever be too much wind, provided its blowing in from third man. if its blowing in from point then youll get drift but not dip which can be harder to control the accuracy of. if its blowing from the on-side then it pretty much sucks (change ends lol), if its blowing from behind then i dont find it a problem, but i dont think it offers any benefits.
give me a 50mph wind from third man every time!! i much prefer it to no wind at all.
P.S. dont try to fight the wind. ive tried bowling harder at it because i felt like the ball was doing too much (almost stopping in mid air lol), but it works best if you just bowl naturally, else accuracy suffers first. you can also put less revs on the ball and still get big drift and dip, followed by a ball that barely turns. it gives more variations to confuse batsmen with.
sadspinner;382712 said:
the 2 nets i practice at during summer are both in notoriously windy areas. probably because they are surrounded by miles of open flat fields at the bottom of a valley area. but either way, they both generally experience winds blowing in from 3rd man (which is very handy for me!), and on some days those winds can be 50mph+ gusts.
to my mind, the absolute best bowling ive ever produced was on probably the windiest day ive ever bowled. its hard to remember if it really was that good or not as it was very early in my development, so i may just remember it as better than it was. but the ball was drifting and dipping huge, and because it dips harder youve got less forward velocity on the ball when it pitches and so it turns more as well. the last time i practised (earlier this month) there were 20-35mph winds with 45mph gusts coming in from 3rd man and i found that helpful, even though i was very out of touch.
i dont honestly believe that there can ever be too much wind, provided its blowing in from third man. if its blowing in from point then youll get drift but not dip which can be harder to control the accuracy of. if its blowing from the on-side then it pretty much sucks (change ends lol), if its blowing from behind then i dont find it a problem, but i dont think it offers any benefits.
give me a 50mph wind from third man every time!! i much prefer it to no wind at all.
P.S. dont try to fight the wind. ive tried bowling harder at it because i felt like the ball was doing too much (almost stopping in mid air lol), but it works best if you just bowl naturally, else accuracy suffers first. you can also put less revs on the ball and still get big drift and dip, followed by a ball that barely turns. it gives more variations to confuse batsmen with.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
I reckon a medium leg break with the option of the Big one when you want to chuck one up there. But definitely a leg break of some kind as your stock ball.
scooter22;382713 said:
I reckon a medium leg break with the option of the Big one when you want to chuck one up there. But definitely a leg break of some kind as your stock ball.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
I'm not sure, Macca says that if you bowl the biggun there's a chance that you'll be penalised with bowling a wide. I suppose it depends on the line you bowl. You need to be bowling in a middle and off or off stump line I reckon to then give you the chance to bowl the biggun so that it looks like a wide ball down the legside. But if your bowling the big leg break on the off-stump line it's not really going to be a problem unless you've got an arm ball as such - a straight one that goes on to the stumps.
I'm not sure, Macca says that if you bowl the biggun there's a chance that you'll be penalised with bowling a wide. I suppose it depends on the line you bowl. You need to be bowling in a middle and off or off stump line I reckon to then give you the chance to bowl the biggun so that it looks like a wide ball down the legside. But if your bowling the big leg break on the off-stump line it's not really going to be a problem unless you've got an arm ball as such - a straight one that goes on to the stumps.
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
id say to bowl whatever youre most comfortable with. generally speaking the overspun (small) leg break is the easiest to control, since your wrist is going more in the direction of the ball, whereas a big leg break youre twisting your wrist across the line of the ball so its much more difficult to bowl accurately.
however, another issue is with seam position. in order to get maximum turn the ball has to land on the seam. the leather faces are smooth and flat so they very rarely grip. the seam is proud and sharp and will grip more often than not, even on the grassiest wickets. when youre bowling with a square seam or a slightly angled one, as with the big leg break, it only takes a slight mistiming in your release to let go of the ball with the seam slanted backwards or forwards. when it hits the pitch the ball doesnt land on the seam, and doesnt turn. if youre very consistent then you might only land the ball like this once an over (even Shane Warne did it quite often), but if youre human then youll probably land it like this 50% or more of the time with a big leg break. the overspun leg break removes almost all of the inconsistency. because youre spinning "over" the ball then the timing of the release isnt a factor, only the position of your wrist is, which is something you can easily adjust. timing is almost impossible to adjust consciously, if you find your rhythm then its there, if you dont then its not!
so for that reason, i favour the overspun leg break as a stock ball, especially early on in a spell. once you find your rhythm it brings the big leg break into play more.
as an example, watch any international off spinner on television and pay close attention to the slow motion close up shots they regularly show of batsmen playing shots. Graeme Swann of England is an excellent example of this. you see the ball, and it is ALWAYS spinning hard, and its always an off break. he doesnt have any other deliveries as far as i know, even his arm ball is an off break, just thrown up faster and flatter. yet you watch the ball hit the pitch, and only about 50-60% of them turn!! the commentators usually say something like "its a normal off break, but it just didnt turn off the pitch. this isnt a perfect spinning wicket, and only some of the balls are gripping".
theyre wrong. if you watch the seam angle you see why. the pitch is going to do roughly the same amount regardless of where you land it (although footholes do have more grip), its nothing to do with the pitch. its the angle of the seam - the ball doesnt always land on the seam, and when it doesnt, it doesnt turn! it still drifts through the air though, and Swann takes a LOT of LBW's off the balls that dont turn. the reason being that lots of other deliveries turn big. so the batsman never knows when its going to turn or not, even though every delivery looks identical.
this natural variation is your friend. but in order to use it you need to bowl inline with the stumps, and you need to get the ball to turn at least 50% of the time. if you can achieve the accuracy and consistency with the big leg break then use it! the ones that turn are probably going to be less effective than the ones that dont (since they will turn away from the stumps), but you need that turn to put doubt in the batsmans mind. once there is doubt, the straight balls will get you the wicket if the ones that turn dont.
if you lack consistency with the big leg break like most people do, then the overspun is easier. personally i vary my deliveries from 45 deg overspun round to a 90 deg square seam. the big leg break is an occasional variation which doesnt always turn. if im bowling well then i favour the squarer seam deliveries because they turn more (and if im bowling well then my seam position is good and consistent). but my standard line is on leg stump and outside (not through choice, thats just where the ball always ends up!). im working on moving my line to middle stump which youll need to do if you use the big'un as your stock ball. its more effective IMO though as a variation bowled outside leg stump, which you cant do if its your stock ball, youll get smashed for runs!!
id say to bowl whatever youre most comfortable with. generally speaking the overspun (small) leg break is the easiest to control, since your wrist is going more in the direction of the ball, whereas a big leg break youre twisting your wrist across the line of the ball so its much more difficult to bowl accurately.
however, another issue is with seam position. in order to get maximum turn the ball has to land on the seam. the leather faces are smooth and flat so they very rarely grip. the seam is proud and sharp and will grip more often than not, even on the grassiest wickets. when youre bowling with a square seam or a slightly angled one, as with the big leg break, it only takes a slight mistiming in your release to let go of the ball with the seam slanted backwards or forwards. when it hits the pitch the ball doesnt land on the seam, and doesnt turn. if youre very consistent then you might only land the ball like this once an over (even Shane Warne did it quite often), but if youre human then youll probably land it like this 50% or more of the time with a big leg break. the overspun leg break removes almost all of the inconsistency. because youre spinning "over" the ball then the timing of the release isnt a factor, only the position of your wrist is, which is something you can easily adjust. timing is almost impossible to adjust consciously, if you find your rhythm then its there, if you dont then its not!
so for that reason, i favour the overspun leg break as a stock ball, especially early on in a spell. once you find your rhythm it brings the big leg break into play more.
as an example, watch any international off spinner on television and pay close attention to the slow motion close up shots they regularly show of batsmen playing shots. Graeme Swann of England is an excellent example of this. you see the ball, and it is ALWAYS spinning hard, and its always an off break. he doesnt have any other deliveries as far as i know, even his arm ball is an off break, just thrown up faster and flatter. yet you watch the ball hit the pitch, and only about 50-60% of them turn!! the commentators usually say something like "its a normal off break, but it just didnt turn off the pitch. this isnt a perfect spinning wicket, and only some of the balls are gripping".
theyre wrong. if you watch the seam angle you see why. the pitch is going to do roughly the same amount regardless of where you land it (although footholes do have more grip), its nothing to do with the pitch. its the angle of the seam - the ball doesnt always land on the seam, and when it doesnt, it doesnt turn! it still drifts through the air though, and Swann takes a LOT of LBW's off the balls that dont turn. the reason being that lots of other deliveries turn big. so the batsman never knows when its going to turn or not, even though every delivery looks identical.
this natural variation is your friend. but in order to use it you need to bowl inline with the stumps, and you need to get the ball to turn at least 50% of the time. if you can achieve the accuracy and consistency with the big leg break then use it! the ones that turn are probably going to be less effective than the ones that dont (since they will turn away from the stumps), but you need that turn to put doubt in the batsmans mind. once there is doubt, the straight balls will get you the wicket if the ones that turn dont.
if you lack consistency with the big leg break like most people do, then the overspun is easier. personally i vary my deliveries from 45 deg overspun round to a 90 deg square seam. the big leg break is an occasional variation which doesnt always turn. if im bowling well then i favour the squarer seam deliveries because they turn more (and if im bowling well then my seam position is good and consistent). but my standard line is on leg stump and outside (not through choice, thats just where the ball always ends up!). im working on moving my line to middle stump which youll need to do if you use the big'un as your stock ball. its more effective IMO though as a variation bowled outside leg stump, which you cant do if its your stock ball, youll get smashed for runs!!
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
Good evening gents. I think I'm the "new bloke" Dave was referring to. I'm a wheelchair user who has learned how to approximate both bowling and batting from my wheelchair but with a deep interest in leg spin bowling. I recently purchased Philpott's 'bible' and have been avidly reading the two main leg spin threads here, plus Dave's blogs and watching his and Jim's videos on Youtube.
someblokecalleddave;382528 said:
Good evening gents. I think I'm the "new bloke" Dave was referring to. I'm a wheelchair user who has learned how to approximate both bowling and batting from my wheelchair but with a deep interest in leg spin bowling. I recently purchased Philpott's 'bible' and have been avidly reading the two main leg spin threads here, plus Dave's blogs and watching his and Jim's videos on Youtube.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
Good to see that you've signed up Chris, welcome aboard and looking forward to seeing you on here making some contribution to our discussions. Looking at your timing I reckon you've just finsihed watching the final David Tennant Dr Who episode?
Good to see that you've signed up Chris, welcome aboard and looking forward to seeing you on here making some contribution to our discussions. Looking at your timing I reckon you've just finsihed watching the final David Tennant Dr Who episode?
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
One thing I had meant to ask - a few years ago, I bought a second-hand copy of Denis Compton's official biography from one of those wonderful bookshops that are filled with interesting old tomes. The author made much of Compton's ability as a chinaman bowler in addition to his genius with the bat. I'd be interested to hear if anyone on this thread has any information or insight into his style, variations etc. Apparently, he started as a slow left arm bowler, but was taken under the wing of an old Middlesex player who had bowled wrist spin in his time and shown the techniques.
One thing I had meant to ask - a few years ago, I bought a second-hand copy of Denis Compton's official biography from one of those wonderful bookshops that are filled with interesting old tomes. The author made much of Compton's ability as a chinaman bowler in addition to his genius with the bat. I'd be interested to hear if anyone on this thread has any information or insight into his style, variations etc. Apparently, he started as a slow left arm bowler, but was taken under the wing of an old Middlesex player who had bowled wrist spin in his time and shown the techniques.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
Being out of season for us here in England and what with it being a bit colder than normal, there's a general lack of activity from us, but Macca usually keeps things ticking over along with Jim. The majority of the activity occurs quite late usually from about now, it's about this time that people tend to chip in with questions, info or reports on what they're up to. At the minute I'm busy with other things and haven't done any serious bowling for weeks, but my clubs net sessions start on next Monday, so I'd imagine I'll have more to say then.
chrisbell;382792 said:
Being out of season for us here in England and what with it being a bit colder than normal, there's a general lack of activity from us, but Macca usually keeps things ticking over along with Jim. The majority of the activity occurs quite late usually from about now, it's about this time that people tend to chip in with questions, info or reports on what they're up to. At the minute I'm busy with other things and haven't done any serious bowling for weeks, but my clubs net sessions start on next Monday, so I'd imagine I'll have more to say then.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
Not one I know about - maybe one of the others will have some info? There's some info on cricinfo and other websites, but there doesn't seem to be a great deal there about his bowling though. I only had a quick look though.
chrisbell;382793 said:
Not one I know about - maybe one of the others will have some info? There's some info on cricinfo and other websites, but there doesn't seem to be a great deal there about his bowling though. I only had a quick look though.
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
Just an idle question, really; I'm intrigued by how a part-time wrist spinner's technique and variations might compare with a specialist.
Moving on, who are England hosting this coming summer? It'd be nice to see some wrist-spin on Sky/Channel 5 highlights.
Just an idle question, really; I'm intrigued by how a part-time wrist spinner's technique and variations might compare with a specialist.
Moving on, who are England hosting this coming summer? It'd be nice to see some wrist-spin on Sky/Channel 5 highlights.
mas cambios
Active Member
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)
Bangladesh and Pakistan, I believe.
chrisbell;382797 said:
Bangladesh and Pakistan, I believe.
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