Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

[gundalf7]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

hi all hope you all had a good christmas and new year.

england have tests against bangladesh and pakistan and also odis against both the former teams and australia. This means that for pakistan we should hopefully see both kaneria and afridi and possibly for bangladesh the return of alok kopali who is a leggie, either way we will see some decent spin overs from bangladesh's army of left arm spinners. Also an interesting possibilty will be maybe with us playing australia(and australia playing pakistan in england) we may get to see the new aussie leggie steve smith for the odis.

As far as my practice has been going i've been taking it very easy, two 30 min sessions in the last 2 weeks, trying to rest up for a few weeks so hopefully i may have better luck regarding injuries this year, hoping to play my first full season this year.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Good evening gents. I think I'm the "new bloke" Dave was referring to. I'm a wheelchair user who has learned how to approximate both bowling and batting from my wheelchair but with a deep interest in leg spin bowling. I recently purchased Philpott's 'bible' and have been avidly reading the two main leg spin threads here, plus Dave's blogs and watching his and Jim's videos on Youtube.

G,day there Chris, my name too.

Well my son can bowl good legbreaks whilst sitting down and over a short distance he can be a real handfull seated in a chair over a half pitch because he can bowl a good wrongun over a short distance as well and it happens so fast at a dozen yards or so.

We haven't done that one for a while we use to do it a bit in the winter just to work on spinning using his shoulder, wrist and fingers alone.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Welcome chris, hope the weather gets better up north. As regards chinamen, simon katich bowled 2 or 3 overs against pakistan but I did not get to see him because of the hour the game is played. Probably gundalf or Jim might have seen him, as they seem to sleep for very few hours. They are totally dedicated to the game.

As far as I know the only successful chinamen bowlers were Fleetwood Smith, Adams the frog in a blender bowler, and lately the aussies had Hogg and Casson. These seem to have been discarded though.


By the way there seems to be a curse with leggies. Casson had heart surgery when young, and even philpott apparently played with a damaged heart valve due to having contracted rheumatic fever. Then there are those who get flaring up of plantar fascitis but that is another story

 

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Thanks for the replies guys! Sadspinner - I'm not really "oop north" - Norfolk isn't considered as The North by anyone, surely?

I remember watching Adams back when Channel 4 used to show coverage. I remember Simon Hughes analysing his action and pointing-out that, in bowling a googly, his head was upside-down looking down the pitch at the batsman at the point of release! I was mainly interested to hear if anyone had seen any old newsreel footage of Compton bowling - there are a couple of small photos in the biography I have, but the author (I suspect) is not that knowledgeable on wrist spinning, so, while he does often refer to Compton bowling and taking wickets, he doesn't really mention whether Compton had a high arm or round-arm action, which variations he bowled etc.
Of course, when discussing him as a cricketer, his batting is the main story, but it sounds as though he was quite a handy "surprise" Chinaman bowler who could force batsmen who'd been seeing a lot of pace bowling to move out of their comfort zone.

As for bowling in a wheelchair - as I have found, there are two main limitations: you can't rotate properly, and I have to use my left arm (non-bowling arm) to steady myself, so I bowl "one-armed". At the moment I can bowl seam-up quite well, though I do tend to veer down leg side, and I am trying to follow Philpott's 8 stages of legspin to overcome problems I found when I tried to bowl legspin from my wheelchair. Due to my disability, in addition to being short in stature with dodgy bones, my joints are slack as well. This is great in some ways (flexibilty), but I found that, in trying to bowl the leg spun delivery, my fingers and wrist were twisting, causing it to come out as a toppie. I've since revised my grip, and I hope that this, plus following the progression Philpott advises, will help me to generate proper sidespin. Oddly enough, though I find wristspin natural from hand to hand, I find fingerspin easier to bowl.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

You are futher up north from me that is for sure. As regards old films, I doubt you will find any. You might find some of him batting British Pathe

To find films of grimmett it was very difficult, but Dave linked some to his leg spin blog. There was also one of Tich freeman on the same link above. Tried Fleetwood Smith but there is practically nothing. Even for O'Reilly it is difficult to find anything of relevance.

As regards Adams, I saw a few clips of him and was really weird as you state, but he managed to bamboozle the poms.

As regards hyperflexability of the joints as you say may be an advantage as you see in murali. As regards pains in joints, we leggies all seem crooked here, me with my knees, gundalf with his fingers, dave with his fascia and epicondyle. That leaves only Macca and Jim who are fit to fight for a place in the squad.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Thanks for the replies guys! Sadspinner - I'm not really "oop north" - Norfolk isn't considered as The North by anyone, surely? .

Chris, anywhere north of Watford is Oop North even north of the M25, even suffolk is a bit iffy as far as us Southerner are concerned and the 'Nor' in Norfolk gives the game away. I think the name kind of suggests land of the Northern Folk?

Anyway that aside, just been ironing and spinning the ball in between strokes of the iron and was spinning the ball back into the body and I think I'm going to try and do this 99% of the time for the next 8 or 9 days and see if I can then convert it to my full length bowling action in the nets next week. I'm kind of hoping that it may work in giving me a ball that comes out of the hand either spinning backwards or maybe with a little adjustment to a ball with the seam at right angles to the direction of flight, worth a go as I can't seem to get the seam that way going from the Top - Spinner going round the loop. Maybe if I jump 180 degrees and work on the back-spinning big flick Slider, come back the other way I might find it easier to bowl the big - flick leg break?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

You are futher up north from me that is for sure. As regards old films, I doubt you will find any. You might find some of him batting British Pathe

To find films of grimmett it was very difficult, but Dave linked some to his leg spin blog. There was also one of Tich freeman on the same link above. Tried Fleetwood Smith but there is practically nothing. Even for O'Reilly it is difficult to find anything of relevance.

As regards Adams, I saw a few clips of him and was really weird as you state, but he managed to bamboozle the poms.

As regards hyperflexability of the joints as you say may be an advantage as you see in murali. As regards pains in joints, we leggies all seem crooked here, me with my knees, gundalf with his fingers, dave with his fascia and epicondyle. That leaves only Macca and Jim who are fit to fight for a place in the squad.

That's cos Macca's got back to back sunshine and must be out and about most of the daylight hours either doing his job or bowling with his son and Jim is just OCD when it comes to bowling and can't contain himself - I bet he's out there now in the frost somewhere bowling!

 

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Yeah Dave, in my "1st stage of the Philpott 8-stage plan to leg-spin genius" progression, I'm trying to spin the ball into my body more than across as I tend to find the top-spun delivery more natural than the ripped leg-break. By the way, I don't use the term leg-break much; my disability causes fragile bones and I've broken my legs more times than I care to recall!

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

With regards the big one, I think being round arm helps a bit more, but I might be wrong. Quite a few times I get the seam at 90 degrees to the flight of the ball, but as Jim says if the seam does not bite into the surface it goes nearly straight on. Me having my grip like gundalf, and using my rude middle finger to spin, i have more problems for those few degrees to get the seam just right. I could also do with increasing some more revs as well.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

With osteogenesis imperfecta, you might get hyperextensible joints, so the doosra might be a possibility. Do not ask how to bowl that, I will leave it to the others.

 

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

With regards the big one, I think being round arm helps a bit more, but I might be wrong. Quite a few times I get the seam at 90 degrees to the flight of the ball, but as Jim says if the seam does not bite into the surface it goes nearly straight on. Me having my grip like gundalf, and using my rude middle finger to spin, i have more problems for those few degrees to get the seam just right. I could also do with increasing some more revs as well.

Well, I'm quite round-arm, so I hope you're right! As regards grips, that's another issue for me - with small stature comes small hands. I'm finding that I need to adjust my grip slightly - with my fingers at around 45 degrees to the seam for spinning in towards my body, but more like 70-80 degrees for spinning across my body and the wrong'un.

 

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

With osteogenesis imperfecta, you might get hyperextensible joints, so the doosra might be a possibility. Do not ask how to bowl that, I will leave it to the others.

Well worked-out, sir! If I understand the doosra correctly, I think I can get my wrist and hand in that position. Isn't it a finger spun delivery with the wrist rotated as a leggie would for the googly? Whether I could actually do it is another matter! EDIT: My question about how to bowl it is indeed aimed at "others"!

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

hi chris, welcome to the discussion. its been discussed on here in the past (macca i think was the first to mention it) that shane warne broke one or both of his legs in his childhood, and that the upper body strength he acquired from being in a wheelchair and/or on crutches is largely attributed to his extraordinary spinning ability. obviously he wasnt seated when he then started bowling afterwards, and being seated has plenty of drawbacks as well, but the majority of the spin is imparted by the fingers, wrist and forearm. the rotational action and follow through are more about putting sufficient pace on the ball whilst maintaining the same amount of spin (most leggies can turn a ball round corners bowling underarm, its getting the same turn at speed which is the tricky part). i can spin a ball 95% as hard from hand to hand as i can in my actual delivery action (confirmed with slow motion footage). so id imagine you have the potential to impart very good revs on the ball. extra spin can compensate for less pace, especially at club level.

so id imagine the hardest aspect of bowling to overcome will be getting the ball across the full 22 yards at a decent pace (assuming you havent already got that sussed). a decent pace doesnt necessarily need to be anything above 25-30mph though if you get good spin on the ball. youll also have either a low trajectory or a VERY flighted one (if you really throw it up). normally a low trajectory would be seen as disadvantageous (because we are talking about the ball leaving the hand at around the same height as the batsmans eyes), but in your case it will be quite a bit lower than an average bowler, which means the ball is going to stay low off the pitch and be hard to read in flight, and i reckon that can be as difficult to play against as a well flighted delivery. the batsman has to adjust his perception of the ball from a normal height, so that can only be a good thing IMO. the well flighted option has all of the usual benefits.

with regards having to use your non-bowling arm to steady yourself, im guessing thats because you have room to slide in the chair? is it possible to make yourself some kind of foam insert so that you are tight in the chair, so that you have more freedom to use your leading arm? to take it to extremes, you could even strap yourself in. then if you angled your chair towards leg gully you could point your leading arm at the stumps, bowl with your bowling arm, and still get about 45 degrees of shoulder rotation with the full use of your arms as a standing leg spinner would have. im not sure what your current technique is, those are just a couple of thoughts.

do you play for a club? i seem to remember reading somewhere a while ago that there are disability cricket clubs all around the country, and that there are also teams at county and international level!

 

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Wow Jim, interesting observations and thoughts!
I don't think it would be to clever of me to try to play in a proper match. Aside from whether I could get the ball to go the full 22 yards with a leg-spn action (I'm sure I could do it bowling seam-up, but I don't really want to!), being struck by it at speed would not do me too much good! I have at present a cheap kids' bat, a Gray-Nicholls Wonderball and some short stumps. My idea is the be able to play a decent knockabout game with family or friends (which possibly precludes my posting here), but I will have to look-up disabled cricket in my area. I had often wondered whether a short-pitch version of the game could be developed for disabled players, though LBW might have to be replaced by WBW - wheelchair before wicket LOL! Problem is, most disabilities do not restrict the height or durability of those with them, whereas mine does! It's pretty rare, acually; only around 1000 people in the UK have it.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

i actually just did some quick googling because i was intrigued. from what i can gather disability cricket is played across 20 yards (the same as U16 cricket i think?), and there are no LBW's unless the player deliberately blocks the ball with their leg/foot.

what disability is it that you actually have, if you dont mind me asking?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

With osteogenesis imperfecta, you might get hyperextensible joints, so the doosra might be a possibility. Do not ask how to bowl that, I will leave it to the others.

I reckon the Doosra is a flipper bowled in the way I demonstrated in one of my videos on youtube - basically it's an upside down flipper that only Murali could ever bowl.

Try it - hold the hand out with the back of the hand facing the dirction of flight, bend the wrist inwards towards the body, the earlier you click the ball the more it turns like a Leg Break. Other than that how the hell does he get it to spin the other way?

 

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

i actually just did some quick googling because i was intrigued. from what i can gather disability cricket is played across 20 yards (the same as U16 cricket i think?), and there are no LBW's unless the player deliberately blocks the ball with their leg/foot.

what disability is it that you actually have, if you dont mind me asking?

Osteogenesis Imperfecta. Don't ask which type LOL - I don't know! When I was diagonosed as a toddler in the early eighties, the types had only just been classified.

Dave - in other words, you think it's similar to your gipper?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

i actually just did some quick googling because i was intrigued. from what i can gather disability cricket is played across 20 yards (the same as U16 cricket i think?), and there are no LBW's unless the player deliberately blocks the ball with their leg/foot.

what disability is it that you actually have, if you dont mind me asking?

I had a quick look as well and found mostly stuff about blind people bowling, couldn't find anything regarding wheel chair users, stacks of stuff on Basketball but not cricket. Just flicking the ball indoors as well, I realised how difficult it must be in that you can't retrieve the ball as readily as us.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Osteogenesis Imperfecta. Don't ask which type LOL - I don't know! When I was diagonosed as a toddler in the early eighties, the types had only just been classified.

Dave - in other words, you think it's similar to your gipper?

In a vague way but he has the massive advantage in that he doesn't have to rotate his arm all the way round because he rolls his wrist & turns his wrist from that weird inward direction and so his hand/wrist end up in that perfect position readily. If he doesn't bowl like that he should do (The flipper click)!

 

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I had a quick look as well and found mostly stuff about blind people bowling, couldn't find anything regarding wheel chair users, stacks of stuff on Basketball but not cricket. Just flicking the ball indoors as well, I realised how difficult it must be in that you can't retrieve the ball as readily as us.

Yeah, I did a bit of googling - found a photo of a guy batting idoors, but he had the wheelchair parked so he was probably facing extra cover which looked most awkward to me - when practice strokes to an imaginary bowler, I park pointing down the imaginary pitch, twist myself so that my chest faces point, and look over my left shoulder. The retrieval issue is why I'm not moving onto underarm yet!