Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

In a vague way but he has the massive advantage in that he doesn't have to rotate his arm all the way round because he rolls his wrist & turns his wrist from that weird inward direction and so his hand/wrist end up in that perfect position readily. If he doesn't bowl like that he should do (The flipper click)!

How you describe that, I dont think my wrist will do that - then again, I can't see how anyone's wrist can!

EDIT: I've just watched the IslandCricket Mark Nicholas video on Youtube of Murali bowling with and without the brace. I can get my wrist around probably 70% as far as he can, but my fingers aren't long or strong enough to impart much spin in that position. It is a brilliantly inventive delivery, though - it's almost a perfect opposite to a leggie's wrong 'un - spun out of the back of the hand but with the hand turned the opposite way to the googly.

EDIT Part 2: I can actually get it to spin with my arm stationary with the flipper action, but not with the fingerspin action - interesting! A new flipper for you Dave - the Dooflip!

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

apart from Murali, the doosra is impossible without a bent arm. its passed under the radar for ages, but quite a few umpires have no balled high profile spin bowlers in more recent years.

you have to bend the palm of your hand down towards your forearm past the point that most people are able to, so that you can release the ball with an upright seam without bending your arm at the elbow. the actual finger action is just a flipper or off spin action, but the arm angles are almost impossible.

most offies that bowl a doosra dont get the seam upright, they just rely on high revs on a dry sub-continental pitch, and the scrambled seam will bite just enough to turn it the other way. but not with proper turn, just very subtle turn. Murali is the only one that can bowl a legal doosra that actually turns like one of his normal deliveries. and his normal deliveries are always scrambled seam anyway lol.

Murali doesnt actually generate that much turn either. you watch his videos on youtube of the biggest turning deliveries hes capable of, and they are similar to an average Warne or MacGill delivery. you watch Warne and MacGill bowling into the rough on a good day and the turn is insane. Murali always bowls with a scrambled seam, he is incapable of bowling any other way. many of his wickets are accounted for by sub-standard opposition. if you discount Bangladesh and Zimbabwe then Warne took 81 more wickets than Murali has thus far. and of Muralis wickets, 60% were taken in Sri Lanka, with 75% of all wickets taken on the sub-continent (of which 15% were against Bangladesh). in other words, on a dry turning pitch hes good, because the seam becomes less important. but give him a green English wicket and Warne wipes the floor with him. his record in Australia is poor (but thats because the batsmen ripped him to shreds). in England Murali took 6% of his wickets, in SA/Zimbabwe 8%, 5% in the W.Indies, and 5% in Australia/NZ.

by comparison, Warne took 52% in Australia and NZ (45% in Australia), 18% in England, 16% on the sub-continent (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka), and 9% in S.Africa and Zimbabwe. he was pretty consistent wherever he went. the Indians played him well, and he struggled in the W.Indies (most spinners do). but he took plenty of wickets on every type of pitch around the world.

this is a cool website for cricket stats in case anyone is as bored as me right now lol HowSTAT! The Cricket Statisticians - Home Page

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

my off-spinning flipper is essentially a straight-armed doosra with a wrist flick. when i bowl it, i actually sort of attempt to bowl a doosra in my mind. but because my wrist cant bend that far, it corrects itself, flicks forwards, and the ball comes out from the other side of my hand. (e.g. in front of it, and not behind it). essentially an upside down handed off-break, with a flipper click.

 

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

apart from Murali, the doosra is impossible without a bent arm. its passed under the radar for ages, but quite a few umpires have no balled high profile spin bowlers in more recent years.

you have to bend the palm of your hand down towards your forearm past the point that most people are able to, so that you can release the ball with an upright seam without bending your arm at the elbow. the actual finger action is just a flipper or off spin action, but the arm angles are almost impossible.

most offies that bowl a doosra dont get the seam upright, they just rely on high revs on a dry sub-continental pitch, and the scrambled seam will bite just enough to turn it the other way. but not with proper turn, just very subtle turn. Murali is the only one that can bowl a legal doosra that actually turns like one of his normal deliveries. and his normal deliveries are always scrambled seam anyway lol.

Murali doesnt actually generate that much turn either. you watch his videos on youtube of the biggest turning deliveries hes capable of, and they are similar to an average Warne or MacGill delivery. you watch Warne and MacGill bowling into the rough on a good day and the turn is insane. Murali always bowls with a scrambled seam, he is incapable of bowling any other way. many of his wickets are accounted for by sub-standard opposition. if you discount Bangladesh and Zimbabwe then Warne took 81 more wickets than Murali has thus far. and of Muralis wickets, 60% were taken in Sri Lanka, with 75% of all wickets taken on the sub-continent (of which 15% were against Bangladesh). in other words, on a dry turning pitch hes good, because the seam becomes less important. but give him a green English wicket and Warne wipes the floor with him. his record in Australia is poor (but thats because the batsmen ripped him to shreds). in England Murali took 6% of his wickets, in SA/Zimbabwe 8%, 5% in the W.Indies, and 5% in Australia/NZ.

by comparison, Warne took 52% in Australia and NZ (45% in Australia), 18% in England, 16% on the sub-continent (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka), and 9% in S.Africa and Zimbabwe. he was pretty consistent wherever he went. the Indians played him well, and he struggled in the W.Indies (most spinners do). but he took plenty of wickets on every type of pitch around the world.

this is a cool website for cricket stats in case anyone is as bored as me right now lol HowSTAT! The Cricket Statisticians - Home Page

I think this would be the problem for the flipper action doosra - my wrist isn't flexible enough to get the seam upright without bending my elbow a lot. Ah well...

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Well saeed ajmal has not had his doosra banned till now, and as far as I know has never been no balled for it.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Well, I'm quite round-arm, so I hope you're right! As regards grips, that's another issue for me - with small stature comes small hands. I'm finding that I need to adjust my grip slightly - with my fingers at around 45 degrees to the seam for spinning in towards my body, but more like 70-80 degrees for spinning across my body and the wrong'un.

Tich Freeman (about 5 foot 4), Grimmett, Abdul Qadir to name a few were definitely not giants. What they all seem to have are very thick strong fingers, and very strong wrists. Like you though I still think having longer fingers help grip the ball better and present bigger levers that increase the distance from the fulcrum or whatever we called it in physics.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Yeah, I did a bit of googling - found a photo of a guy batting idoors, but he had the wheelchair parked so he was probably facing extra cover which looked most awkward to me - when practice strokes to an imaginary bowler, I park pointing down the imaginary pitch, twist myself so that my chest faces point, and look over my left shoulder. The retrieval issue is why I'm not moving onto underarm yet!

Get a dog like Clarrie Grimmett, train him to count and he will do the dirty work of retrieving the balls for you. It saved him from getting tired.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

(most leggies can turn a ball round corners bowling underarm, its getting the same turn at speed which is the tricky part).

In the video showing casson he bowls underarm once. One cannot say that he turns it round corners there really. You may argue he is not a great wrist/chinaman bowler, but hey he was chosen to replace MacGill, so he must be good. What impresses me most is not the AMOUNT of turn but rather the Quick turn he gets, and as Macca says that is the most important.


I hope Kaneria plays tonight, that will show us whether he is good enough to perform on this stage (well taking 250 wickets might answer my rhetorical question). Looks like a late night so for Jim and Gundalf.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

In the video showing casson he bowls underarm once. One cannot say that he turns it round corners there really. You may argue he is not a great wrist/chinaman bowler, but hey he was chosen to replace MacGill, so he must be good. What impresses me most is not the AMOUNT of turn but rather the Quick turn he gets, and as Macca says that is the most important.


I hope Kaneria plays tonight, that will show us whether he is good enough to perform on this stage (well taking 250 wickets might answer my rhetorical question). Looks like a late night so for Jim and Gundalf.

Catch up with it later on that highlight website.

With regards the term Doosra and what it means...... it means 'The other one'. So in fact the Doosra's definition is very loose, so if I was to bowl Leg Breaks 95% of the time and a Wrong as my 'Other one' my wrong un would be my Doosra? Or is a Doosra a specific delivery? I up till recently I thought a Doosra was the ball that Murali bowls that goes the other way to his Off-spinner, but to call a ball a Doosra in the strictest terms it needed to be bowled with that inward arm/wrist turn technique that only Murali bowls or am I wrong? No-one else out there surely bowl in that way do they?

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Catch up with it later on that highlight website.

You can find a radio/web broadcast ABC Sport - Cricket Features here somewhere and it's free. Then you can listen to the insane commentary of legspinner kerry o keefe.

Everyone is excited about seeing Kaneria again. I want to see him get a bag of wickets. It has been warm, wet and humid in sydney for days so it wont be one of those dry dustbowls this year maybe even a greentop to start with but Kaneria will still get plenty of spin at some stage. I reckon a few of our batsmen are suspect against good legspin. Clarke and Ponting have top class footwork but some of the others dont get out of their crease enough.

Katich probably wont bowl his leftarm wristies if he even plays with his injury but he definately is underbowled by ponting. His first ball of the series was a long hop hit straight to the offspinner, of course, Hauritz who dropped an absolute sitter. Next ball a beautiful wrongun beat the batsman and only just made his ground on the replay after stumping appeal.

 

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Catch up with it later on that highlight website.

With regards the term Doosra and what it means...... it means 'The other one'. So in fact the Doosra's definition is very loose, so if I was to bowl Leg Breaks 95% of the time and a Wrong as my 'Other one' my wrong un would be my Doosra? Or is a Doosra a specific delivery? I up till recently I thought a Doosra was the ball that Murali bowls that goes the other way to his Off-spinner, but to call a ball a Doosra in the strictest terms it needed to be bowled with that inward arm/wrist turn technique that only Murali bowls or am I wrong? No-one else out there surely bowl in that way do they?

It's an interesting point, a bit like asking whether BJT Bosanquet was the only person ever to bowl a googly because he invented it and anyone else's googly was merely an interpretation. In the case of Murali I am tempted to suggest that he is the only well-known bowler who can bowl a true doosra, unlike with the bosie which is bowled by many people and has been since Bosanquet invented it as far as I know.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Murali didnt invent the doosra, Saqlain Mushtaq did, and he was a more conventional off spinner. Murali just adopted it as his own, with his own unique action. and because of his double jointed wrist he can get away without bending his elbow past the legal 5 degrees. nobody else can, its just a question of how long before the ICC recognise the illegality and ban them from using it.

Johan Botha of S.Africa has been completely banned from using his doosra by the ICC as of last year because his elbow is illegal. its probably why hes no longer S.A's primary spin bowler. theyve replaced him with Harris who doesnt actually spin the ball lol. i know the Aussies have very strong opinions against the delivery, particularly in the case of Murali.

P.S. the name Doosra does just mean "the other one", but the term "wrong-un" just means it turns the other way as well. however, because of the method the inventor of the delivery used, its kind of implied that it has to be bowled that way. if you subtly vary the method then thats just natural variation between bowlers. but if you completely alter it (e.g. off spinning flipper) then i dont think you can still call it by the original name. so a doosra is only a doosra when its bowled out of the back of the hand with a snap of the elbow (which is illegal). any other type of leg-break finger spun delivery would have to adopt its own name.

 

[T.A Offspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

bending his elbow past the legal 5 degrees.

just to clear it up it's 15 i'm pretty sure...

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

just to clear it up it's 15 i'm pretty sure...

youre right, it is! it didnt used to be, 5 degrees was the law, and everyone got banned from bowling the doosra. then they changed the rules to 15 degrees, and now most people are legal again. so by that definition i guess the doosra is now legal (Murali only bends his arm 10 degrees). however, only because the laws of the game have been changed to accomodate it. which i think is wrong. as did a commitee of legendary Australian spinners who apparently have banned the teaching of the doosra to young spinners in Australia.

with 15 degrees as the law then im confident i could bowl a legal doosra. but id literally be throwing the ball, with a backwards elbow.

 

[T.A Offspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

well I have attempted doosra's but the only way i can get them out is actually to curl my arm right up and fling the ball out which is most deffinantly not a legal delivery...

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I wrote a load of stuff last night about this and then lost it somehow in the uploading process that really miffs me when that happens.

Does the SA bloke Botha bowl the Doosra with his wrist and elbow rotating clockwise like Murali? Like TA Off-spinner I can bowl in that manner after some practice and produce both the off-spinner and the Doosra but my kids say "Dad you're chucking the ball" and the only time I've tried videoing it, it was blatantly wrong.

But the main question is does Botha bowl with the same clockwise wrist and forearm action as Murali when he bowls?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Murali didnt invent the doosra, Saqlain Mushtaq did, and he was a more conventional off spinner. Murali just adopted it as his own, with his own unique action. and because of his double jointed wrist he can get away without bending his elbow past the legal 5 degrees. nobody else can, its just a question of how long before the ICC recognise the illegality and ban them from using it.

Johan Botha of S.Africa has been completely banned from using his doosra by the ICC as of last year because his elbow is illegal. its probably why hes no longer S.A's primary spin bowler. theyve replaced him with Harris who doesnt actually spin the ball lol. i know the Aussies have very strong opinions against the delivery, particularly in the case of Murali.

P.S. the name Doosra does just mean "the other one", but the term "wrong-un" just means it turns the other way as well. however, because of the method the inventor of the delivery used, its kind of implied that it has to be bowled that way. if you subtly vary the method then thats just natural variation between bowlers. but if you completely alter it (e.g. off spinning flipper) then i dont think you can still call it by the original name. so a doosra is only a doosra when its bowled out of the back of the hand with a snap of the elbow (which is illegal). any other type of leg-break finger spun delivery would have to adopt its own name.

So how does Mushtaq bowl it - does his action look anything like Murali's?

Have a look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ki3tS-u5y60 this doesn't look like anything odd or particularly different and it certainly doesn't look like Murali's Doosra and it doesn't turn that much either despite what the commentators are saying.

To me it seems to me a Doosra is as Jim says is a ball that turns the other way and is a loose description used by commentators to cover the fact that they haven't got a clue as to what they're looking at. It's the same as when commentators try and describe what Warne is doing, we're all of the opinion on here generally that they're a bunch of chancers - they seem to be mostly ex batsmen or fast bowlers or that sneaky bleeder Richie 'I invented the Flipper' Benaud so what do they know anyway? Jim pointed out that recently they've been getting it very wrong with regards even describing Swann's rudimentary bowling so that indicates how bad they are at describing spin bowling.

I'd say that Murali's bowling is so unique that his deliveries are only attributable to him and could be accredited with their own unique names, but on a simple level he bowls off-spinners, his Doosra and obviously straight balls as well - but the way he does it is unique to him. I think my confusion has been that when people say that others are bowling Doosra's I've been looking at the arm and wrist and wondering why they've not been turning to clockwise in the Murali way. So it seems that the term Doosra isn't Murali's ball at all and it's simply another term to describe and off-spinners ball that goes the other way?

Therefore a year or so ago when I was a Googly bowler (I'm right armed) I was in essence an off-spinner, so if I'd then been able to bowl a Leg Break every now and then as a variation that could in fact have been described as my Doosra. Is that right, sorry for being a bit dim on this - but I blame the commentators for my confusion!!!!

 

[T.A Offspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

well dave I'd have to watch a video of both of them bowling their doosra one after the other and then give a comparison but from memory i think botha's was blatantly out of whack, it may just be me...but ya know.


by the way just call me Tom if you want, it's be a lot easier than typing it all out...

 

[T.A Offspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

YouTube - Johan Botha Chucking against Australia?

to me thaT'S a chuck, but to some it's not.

here's murali's

YouTube - Murali traps Grame Thorpe with a doosra


so take a look at them and tell me what you think...


EDIT: as an added bonus here's mushtaq's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ki3tS-u5y60&feature=related

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

id say they are both chucking it. Botha got banned for his, but Murali didnt because his natural arm isnt straight. the rules used to say a maximum of 5 degrees elbow bend. but apparently Muralis arm doesnt go straight because of a deformed elbow or something. so his argument was that his arm wasnt bent more than 5 degrees from its natural shape. so rather than face the controversy of allowing Murali and nobody else the ICC just changed the rules to 15 degrees to accomodate pretty much everyone. thats what i can make of it all from google. even with the 15 degrees though Botha is still banned from bowling a doosra lol. which shows just how bad his is!

personally i think they should have banned the delivery and retained the original rules. for 150+ years of international cricket the players managed to stay within the rules. Clarrie Grimmett could spin the ball in every possible direction in the 1930's, so why should the rules be changed to accomodate a handful of modern players who are too lazy/talentless to bowl a variation within the rules?

Shane Warne could spin the ball in every direction without cheating. so it cant even be argued that the modern game doesnt allow it within the rules.

anyhow, i fear we are straying rather off topic now lol. back to wrist spin, lets leave the off spinners to their "illegal" doosras the joy of leg spin is that we can spin the ball in every possible direction with a near identical arm and wrist action!! which makes it all the more frustrating that off spinners are having the laws of the game adjusted so that they can too. they should have learnt leg spin if they wanted to bowl leg breaks.