Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Here it is WWOS.com.au - Cricket good story on steve smith after warne stuff too.

Cheers Macca really interesting stuff from Warnie here, particularly liked the theory with the arm out front more to get more topspin and dip. Can't see why it'd work but if he says it does then it must do!

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

According to grimmett:
Slower ball: ball released before the arm reaches the top of the swing. Am I right macca, or is that rubbish?

And thanks for the link. Surprised at the speed he bowled that from the standstill position.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Cheers Macca really interesting stuff from Warnie here, particularly liked the theory with the arm out front more to get more topspin and dip. Can't see why it'd work but if he says it does then it must do!

i wasnt entirely sure, but wondered whether his own method meant that his arm arrived slightly later in his action, thus releasing the ball earlier from the hand? the way he worded it made it sound like it was to do with timing. otherwise youd think a bigger wind-up would increase the speed.

with my action i start with my arm out in front of me near enough perpendicular to the ground, and then rotate it round the full 270+ degrees before release. which now has me wondering whether that is taking pace off the ball, or whether (and this is what i think myself) i have to speed my arm up to get it round in the same timespan, and thus have a faster arm speed. however that raises various potential issues in my mind...

a faster arm is a more sensitive one. the ball has to be released at a very specific moment in order to be accurate, and that is harder to do with a faster movement

a faster arm is harder to control, so could stray off line.

the larger wind-up means more time/distance during the rotation for the arm to stray from its desired motion.

all of which add up to inconsistency!! but now im unsure as to whether they are actually issues, or if listening to Warne has just made me paranoid lol. il have to try out a smaller wind-up and see what effects it has (both positive and negative).

According to grimmett:
Slower ball: ball released before the arm reaches the top of the swing. Am I right macca, or is that rubbish?

And thanks for the link. Surprised at the speed he bowled that from the standstill position.

Grimmetts description ties in with what i was thinking when i watched it. and makes the most sense.

with regards bowling from a standstill and still achieving the speed, and more importantly, turn - i have my doubts as to how important the run-up actually is in the grand scheme of things. i wouldnt be at all surprised if i video'd my normal action versus a standing-start action that the difference in delivery speed wouldnt be within 5mph. and im way more accurate from a standstill, and i get more turn. the follow through is more important.

Warne told Steve Smith to slow his run-up down, and mine has been getting progressively faster and faster recently. i definitely think i need to slow mine back down and focus on accuracy and consistency some more before concerning myself with pace. i also need to measure the speed of my deliveries. because if i find im already bowling at 40+mph then i really dont need to add any more pace right now. my concern was that i was only capable of about 30mph, but the more i look at it the more im convinced that im already achieving a good speed. and it makes no sense to fix something that isnt broken.

its absolutely amazing how many questions a 6 minute clip of Shane Warne can create in your own mind!! he wasnt really even discussing anything that i felt i had an issue with, yet ive got half a dozen things to try at my next practice from it lol. the mans wisdom is incredible. he needs to become a leg spin coach for sure.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

with regards bowling from a standstill and still achieving the speed, and more importantly, turn - i have my doubts as to how important the run-up actually is in the grand scheme of things. i wouldnt be at all surprised if i video'd my normal action versus a standing-start action that the difference in delivery speed wouldnt be within 5mph. and im way more accurate from a standstill, and i get more turn. the follow through is more important.

I am with you here. It is supposed to give momentum, hence increase the energy at delivery. In my case, as in yours, I am more accurate and get more turn from standstill. Not sure about the speed of delivery. Till the ball gets to the other side the batsman can get a nap!

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

"Warne told Steve Smith to slow his run-up down, and mine has been getting progressively faster and faster recently. i definitely think i need to slow mine back down and focus on accuracy and consistency some more before concerning myself with pace."

I feel that when i run up excruciatingly slowly, my steps match the count i do( the 1,2,3,4,5 and bowl). Faster and everything goes out of synch.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

"its absolutely amazing how many questions a 6 minute clip of Shane Warne can create in your own mind!! he wasnt really even discussing anything that i felt i had an issue with, yet ive got half a dozen things to try at my next practice from it lol"

That explains why when you get into a rhythm, everything feels so much easier. When you have rhythm, you do not think about all the points/movements you have to perform before delivering the ball. It is as though you are on autopilot and you get into your bubble.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

There's potentially a lot to think about amongst all that, but as Jim says it can get to the point where you're paranoid or thinking too much. I don't know how I start off - I'll have to look at some vids of me from the front and see, but all in all this clip could confuse as much as rectify I reckon.

 

[The Edge Of Willow]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I had a good net session a couple of days ago. My pace was up and I was drifting the ball without an assisting breeze. The only troubles were, of course, my inconsistency with regard to accuracy and flight and that I was bowling with a little to much over-spin for my liking(I've been practicing varying overspin and side-spin lately).

Oh, and I see there is vast ignorance regarding the issue of chucking here, but as you say, it is probably not a good idea to open that off-topic can of worms. I think I'll send you a PM regarding it at some point(I'm a bit busy at the moment, so it might be a fews days before it happens).

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

We went and checked out Kaneria down at the scg on tuesday. He is a champion legspinner and had the test won three times except for an inept wicketkeeper. He is not as accurate as warne or kumble but he is a crafty so and so. He had not bowled for a couple of weeks and it showed at first but after a while he found his length and he had a great breeze from third man to bowl into and he was superb until he cramped up. Varies his pace a lot and gets loads of drop in his flight.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

We went and checked out Kaneria down at the scg on tuesday. He is a champion legspinner and had the test won three times except for an inept wicketkeeper. He is not as accurate as warne or kumble but he is a crafty so and so. He had not bowled for a couple of weeks and it showed at first but after a while he found his length and he had a great breeze from third man to bowl into and he was superb until he cramped up. Varies his pace a lot and gets loads of drop in his flight.

Did you get to see him practicing in the nets or was this an actual game?

 

[Paulinho]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

HI Jim

I've just been watching your vids on youtube as winter nets are coming soon and I need to try and remember what I'm supposed to be doing.

you bowl some lovely balls in your collection and seen to be able to give the ball a real flick and have a lot of variety but I was wondering if anyone has mentioned your front arm to you? It seems to come horizontally across your body instead of the more othodox high front arm coming down and stearing the action. I'm a big believer in if it ain't broke dont' fix it but if you're having trouble with accuracy this could be why.

we had a fella at my club with the same thing and he bowled a lot of inaccurate deliveries because his momentum wasn't being driven forward, he did however turn it a mile. it did however cause problems for his shoulder though.

like I said though you bowl some lovely stuff so if you are comfortable and you don't feel any extra strain on you shoulder then stick with it.

i wasnt entirely sure, but wondered whether his own method meant that his arm arrived slightly later in his action, thus releasing the ball earlier from the hand? the way he worded it made it sound like it was to do with timing. otherwise youd think a bigger wind-up would increase the speed.

with my action i start with my arm out in front of me near enough perpendicular to the ground, and then rotate it round the full 270+ degrees before release. which now has me wondering whether that is taking pace off the ball, or whether (and this is what i think myself) i have to speed my arm up to get it round in the same timespan, and thus have a faster arm speed. however that raises various potential issues in my mind...

a faster arm is a more sensitive one. the ball has to be released at a very specific moment in order to be accurate, and that is harder to do with a faster movement

a faster arm is harder to control, so could stray off line.

the larger wind-up means more time/distance during the rotation for the arm to stray from its desired motion.

all of which add up to inconsistency!! but now im unsure as to whether they are actually issues, or if listening to Warne has just made me paranoid lol. il have to try out a smaller wind-up and see what effects it has (both positive and negative).



Grimmetts description ties in with what i was thinking when i watched it. and makes the most sense.

with regards bowling from a standstill and still achieving the speed, and more importantly, turn - i have my doubts as to how important the run-up actually is in the grand scheme of things. i wouldnt be at all surprised if i video'd my normal action versus a standing-start action that the difference in delivery speed wouldnt be within 5mph. and im way more accurate from a standstill, and i get more turn. the follow through is more important.

Warne told Steve Smith to slow his run-up down, and mine has been getting progressively faster and faster recently. i definitely think i need to slow mine back down and focus on accuracy and consistency some more before concerning myself with pace. i also need to measure the speed of my deliveries. because if i find im already bowling at 40+mph then i really dont need to add any more pace right now. my concern was that i was only capable of about 30mph, but the more i look at it the more im convinced that im already achieving a good speed. and it makes no sense to fix something that isnt broken.

its absolutely amazing how many questions a 6 minute clip of Shane Warne can create in your own mind!! he wasnt really even discussing anything that i felt i had an issue with, yet ive got half a dozen things to try at my next practice from it lol. the mans wisdom is incredible. he needs to become a leg spin coach for sure.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

HI Jim

I've just been watching your vids on youtube as winter nets are coming soon and I need to try and remember what I'm supposed to be doing.

you bowl some lovely balls in your collection and seen to be able to give the ball a real flick and have a lot of variety but I was wondering if anyone has mentioned your front arm to you? It seems to come horizontally across your body instead of the more othodox high front arm coming down and stearing the action. I'm a big believer in if it ain't broke dont' fix it but if you're having trouble with accuracy this could be why.

we had a fella at my club with the same thing and he bowled a lot of inaccurate deliveries because his momentum wasn't being driven forward, he did however turn it a mile. it did however cause problems for his shoulder though.

like I said though you bowl some lovely stuff so if you are comfortable and you don't feel any extra strain on you shoulder then stick with it.

its been the topic of several discussions. ive actually altered the front arm so that my hand points to the sky, but the arm is still mostly bent. much like Warnes action really. it yielded positive results. i also tried to keep the arm closer to my body through the follow through (rather than throwing it out wide, which does aid in rotation). which added turn initially, but doesnt feel comfortable. so im trying to find a happy medium. ive adjusted my footwork as well, and im bowling faster (purposely, i wanted to add about 10mph to my bowling). but next time i get a chance to practice im going to slow back down and get some more video to see where im at. the increase in pace seems to be making things worse, and id rather bowl slower and more consistently for now.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

i watched the highlights of Australia vs Pakistan earlier on, specifically watching Kaneria. and i noted a couple of interesting things.

firstly, he takes exactly the same amount of run up as i do. so if its good enough for probably the best current international leg spinner in the world then im thinking theres less requirement for me to change mine.

and secondly, he throws up variations ALL the time! Shane Warne was criticising him for it, saying he needs more patience with the leg break. id agree on the most part. i saw him bowling for Essex on TV several times last season and he was awful. he was getting smashed around the park every time and never found a rhythm. but he took a couple of his wickets with wrong'uns.

despite the 5 wickets though he got hit around all over the place. i think its a little concerning that the best current leg spinner is so inconsistent. he certainly has the capabilities to bowl some absolutely cracking deliveries, but unfortunately the other 5 in the over are usually average at best.

the commentators for the England vs S.Africa test were reviewing the match at the end today and said that the only thing missing from the current test series (because its been a very good one and full of drama) was a leg spinner. i think thats the only thing missing from world cricket, full stop! there just arent any world class leg spinners playing since Kumble and Warne retired. off spin is all well and good, but it doesnt take enough wickets. especially not on average spinning wickets. leg spin does something on every pitch.

India have a potentially very good one in Amit Mishra (theyve also got Chawla), and Shahid Afridi has always looked an excellent leg spinner for Pakistan when ive seen him bowl (unfortunately he seems to be regarded primarily as a batsman. and he seems to either smash the ball out of the park and get a big score, or try to smash it and get out for nothing). Australia and England are both in desperate need of one though. maybe Steve Smith and Adil Rashid will be the answer. Hauritz and Swann will do for now, but long term i think they will fade away once batsmen figure them out. theyve only really got 2 deliveries - a consistent off break, and an arm ball.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

i watched the highlights of Australia vs Pakistan earlier on, specifically watching Kaneria. and i noted a couple of interesting things.

firstly, he takes exactly the same amount of run up as i do. so if its good enough for probably the best current international leg spinner in the world then im thinking theres less requirement for me to change mine.

and secondly, he throws up variations ALL the time! Shane Warne was criticising him for it, saying he needs more patience with the leg break. id agree on the most part. i saw him bowling for Essex on TV several times last season and he was awful. he was getting smashed around the park every time and never found a rhythm. but he took a couple of his wickets with wrong'uns.

despite the 5 wickets though he got hit around all over the place. i think its a little concerning that the best current leg spinner is so inconsistent. he certainly has the capabilities to bowl some absolutely cracking deliveries, but unfortunately the other 5 in the over are usually average at best.

the commentators for the England vs S.Africa test were reviewing the match at the end today and said that the only thing missing from the current test series (because its been a very good one and full of drama) was a leg spinner. i think thats the only thing missing from world cricket, full stop! there just arent any world class leg spinners playing since Kumble and Warne retired. off spin is all well and good, but it doesnt take enough wickets. especially not on average spinning wickets. leg spin does something on every pitch.

India have a potentially very good one in Amit Mishra (theyve also got Chawla), and Shahid Afridi has always looked an excellent leg spinner for Pakistan when ive seen him bowl (unfortunately he seems to be regarded primarily as a batsman. and he seems to either smash the ball out of the park and get a big score, or try to smash it and get out for nothing). Australia and England are both in desperate need of one though. maybe Steve Smith and Adil Rashid will be the answer. Hauritz and Swann will do for now, but long term i think they will fade away once batsmen figure them out. theyve only really got 2 deliveries - a consistent off break, and an arm ball.

Kaneria started off shocking, full tosses, long hops and half volleys. He started off from the northern end bowling with the wind probably because that was the end where the seamers were getting movement and as warne said on day one "if it seams it spins as well" and he did get a couple to bore into the pitch with the seam and get a couple of sydney smoke signals out of it and a wicket. He soon changed ends because he had the perfect legspin breeze, nor'west, which you dont get everyday in sydney. He had not bowled for a couple of weeks. The ball was fairly new when he first got it and the light was so unbelievable clear, I reckon Watson was reading the seam and playing off the pitch. Clarke played him best with footwork.

After tea it became overcast and the light was nowhere near as good, the breeze was strong from third man and when Kaneria found his length he was a different bowler. He was like a dog with a bone and no captain would have got the ball off him at this stage. It showed how good a combination legspin and seam together is at Sydney. He had the test match won except for 3 easy catches ( if any are easy) put down by the keeper. He cramped up at the end after 30 odd overs.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Kaneria started off shocking, full tosses, long hops and half volleys. He started off from the northern end bowling with the wind probably because that was the end where the seamers were getting movement and as warne said on day one "if it seams it spins as well" and he did get a couple to bore into the pitch with the seam and get a couple of sydney smoke signals out of it and a wicket. He soon changed ends because he had the perfect legspin breeze, nor'west, which you dont get everyday in sydney. He had not bowled for a couple of weeks. The ball was fairly new when he first got it and the light was so unbelievable clear, I reckon Watson was reading the seam and playing off the pitch. Clarke played him best with footwork.

After tea it became overcast and the light was nowhere near as good, the breeze was strong from third man and when Kaneria found his length he was a different bowler. He was like a dog with a bone and no captain would have got the ball off him at this stage. It showed how good a combination legspin and seam together is at Sydney. He had the test match won except for 3 easy catches ( if any are easy) put down by the keeper. He cramped up at the end after 30 odd overs.

I'm going to go and see how bad this Kaneria bloke is - worryingly he plays for Essex Jim says, I'll have to check that out as well. I suppose if he comes good this year he'll be worth watching this summer? Anyway he's the bloke who doesn't know what a Flipper is! Let's hope Stevie Smith and Adil Rashid get their game together for the Ashes and get selected.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I'm going to go and see how bad this Kaneria bloke is - worryingly he plays for Essex Jim says, I'll have to check that out as well. I suppose if he comes good this year he'll be worth watching this summer? Anyway he's the bloke who doesn't know what a Flipper is! Let's hope Stevie Smith and Adil Rashid get their game together for the Ashes and get selected.

hes not necessarily bad, his best deliveries are as good as anyones. hes just not as consistent as youd expect a top international player to be. ive seen him play on TV maybe 10 times now, and only 2 of those performances have been anything close to good, and both of them were still a scattering of poor deliveries with a good one thrown in here and there.

his control of line is quite poor, he gifts batsmen easy runs on a regular basis. generally at least once an over, which makes him easy to play lol. he looked like he found a better rhythm once he started taking wickets. i was only watching the highlights though so it was hard to actually see what his deliveries were like in between because they didnt show all of them. he went for 151 runs though which pretty much speaks for itself. thats about 40% of all the runs Australia scored in their 2nd innings. in the first innings he had 2 overs for 18 runs!!

Michael Clarke plays every spinner well, hes got to be one of the best batsmen on the planet for footwork. not only can he get down the pitch, but he can get back again whilst the ball is in flight!! he played some magnificent shots against Graeme Swann during the Ashes in the summer.

one really weird thing about Kaneria is that at county level this year he really didnt look good. i saw him play quite a few times on TV for Essex and was wondering how on earth he played at international level. then he goes away with Pakistan and takes 5-fors on a very regular basis!! i think ive heard people say before that Shane Warne wasnt great at state level in Australia? yet he was magical at international level. maybe there is such a thing as being "too good" at spinning the ball. you end up doing so much with the delivery that an average county player cant even get bat on ball to get themselves out lol.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

one really weird thing about Kaneria is that at county level this year he really didnt look good. i saw him play quite a few times on TV for Essex and was wondering how on earth he played at international level. then he goes away with Pakistan and takes 5-fors on a very regular basis!! i think ive heard people say before that Shane Warne wasnt great at state level in Australia? yet he was magical at international level. maybe there is such a thing as being "too good" at spinning the ball. you end up doing so much with the delivery that an average county player cant even get bat on ball to get themselves out lol.

You muat be joking right.You cannot compare him to Warne, very few leg spinners in history can. But he was one of the main wicket takers in county cricket in the 4 day format. Have a look at his stats for this year BBC SPORT | Cricket | Counties | Essex | Averages
Compare them with Rashid's BBC SPORT | Cricket | Counties | Yorkshire | Averages
Borthwick http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/cricket/counties/durham/averages/default.stm
Even Tahir does not come close BBC SPORT | Cricket | Counties | Hampshire | Averages


I personally think he is very underrated. He spins the ball a lot, dare I say close to what warne does in terms of revs, has a beautiful googly and topspinner. He needs to learn a real flipper. He also probably does not have as much guile as other leggies of the past. Saying he is not international class is exaggerating a bit. Maybe Macca, who has seen him and many top aussie leggies in the last thirty years can give us a better evaluation of his skills. You have to remember he is part of a pakistani side that has a tendency to collapses akin to the english side a few years back. Enough said

 

[Paulinho]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

You muat be joking right.You cannot compare him to Warne, very few leg spinners in history can. But he was one of the main wicket takers in county cricket in the 4 day format. Have a look at his stats for this year BBC SPORT | Cricket | Counties | Essex | Averages
Compare them with Rashid's BBC SPORT | Cricket | Counties | Yorkshire | Averages
Borthwick BBC SPORT | Cricket | Counties | Yorkshire | Averages
Even Tahir does not come close BBC SPORT | Cricket | Counties | Hampshire | Averages


I personally think he is very underrated. He spins the ball a lot, dare I say close to what warne does in terms of revs, has a beautiful googly and topspinner. He needs to learn a real flipper. He also probably does not have as much guile as other leggies of the past. Saying he is not international class is exaggerating a bit. Maybe Macca, who has seen him and many top aussie leggies in the last thirty years can give us a better evaluation of his skills. You have to remember he is part of a pakistani side that has a tendency to collapses akin to the english side a few years back. Enough said

I don't think comparisons with warne or even kumble are fair for anyone. there accuracy and consistency was freakish, not the norm at all.

not that a bad ball per over should be expected, but it's certainly understandable.

I think that one think that cannot be over looked is also the quality of wicket keeper these players played with which cannot be said for kaneria. if he had healy behind the stumps he'd get even more wickets.

the one thing I would say about kaneria is that he isn't patient enough so I have to agree with warne on that one.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Hi Paulinho, long time since we have heard of you. You are right about the wicket keeper. Had he not had 3 catches dropped off his bowling he might have had a 7 or 8 for 150. Not bad by any standard. I wonder how many 7 fors warne had throughout his career. Not many I suspect, and if he did they probably were poms or banghladeshi's

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Paulinho, you have a young leggie borthwick with Durham, that seems to be your favoured side. Did you get to see him? I only saw him on TV in the 40 over games. He is still young. Will have to wait to see how he develops.