Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

The date when Grimmett first bowled his backspun flipper in a first class match is well documented. January 1940, one of the last games before cricket stopped for war. Two flippers, two wickets. Instant success ( after 12 years development)
But Gideon Haigh writes that Stan Mc Cabe worked out that Grimmett was making a finger clicking noise when he bowled his "topspinner" as early as 1929. I reckon this was the overspun flipper. Would everyone agree this is the only delivery that makes that clicking noise? Grimmetts standard topspinner would have sounded like all his other deliveries. Haigh does not say if mc cabe was the striker or not.

Local legspinner Bob Holland was just made a life member of nsw cricket. And young nsw legspinner steve smith has been picked for the nsw side for the champions league in India.

 

[Paulinho]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

i think length is the most crucial aspect of spin bowling. bowl on the right length and the line doesnt seem to matter so much. QUOTE]

That is the big advantage of legspin in particular dont you think?. You can be a bit more off target with your line than any other type of bowling as long as you get the length right first.

Of course you have to work towards controling both line and length but as I said before, Grimmett did stress length over line as the first goal.

I totatally agree that length is the most important thing. as anything to short or to full is easy picking for a batsman regardless of how much you get it to turn, drift or dip. too full is better than short though.

I've been told that a have a really good length by batsman who say that they are unsure if they they should play backward or forward to the ball. this split second of indecision makes all the difference. I would recommend the hula hoop as a target that I mentioned in an earlier post.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

The date when Grimmett first bowled his backspun flipper in a first class match is well documented. January 1940, one of the last games before cricket stopped for war. Two flippers, two wickets. Instant success ( after 12 years development)
But Gideon Haigh writes that Stan Mc Cabe worked out that Grimmett was making a finger clicking noise when he bowled his "topspinner" as early as 1929. I reckon this was the overspun flipper. Would everyone agree this is the only delivery that makes that clicking noise? Grimmetts standard topspinner would have sounded like all his other deliveries. Haigh does not say if mc cabe was the striker or not.

Local legspinner Bob Holland was just made a life member of nsw cricket. And young nsw legspinner steve smith has been picked for the nsw side for the champions league in India.

The Top-Spinning Flipper (Mystery Ball) in my experience is the one that makes the most pronounced click, but the more modern (Warnesque) Flipper if bowed as Grimmett seems to have done with using 3 or 4 fingers also makes a fairly loud click. Reading Grimmetts taking wickets as far as I can recall (although I may go back and check it) I got the sense that Grimmett started with the Off-spinning flipper with the palm facing the bat as it was released so that the bat would see the hand position and expect a Leg Break and then the ball would turn as an off-spinner? It then reads as though he then realised that using the 'Round the loop' theory the Top-spinning flipper came next and then the other two. The book being published in 1930 and your research into the account above suggests that he could well have been bowling the Top-Spinning ball years prior to 1930? The more you dig up about Grimmett Macca the more it convinces me that the real 'Flipper' is the Top-Spinning version and the more I bowl it the more I'm becoming convinced that it's a far superior ball then the back-spinning Flipper a la' Warne et al. For me the back-spinning flipper is just too much like a conventional seamers ball and batsmen tend to deal with it fairly readliy. It may only work affectively if bowled maybe once or twice in a 6 over spell? Whereas the Top-Spinner dips, swings and in my case breaks slighly like an off-spin and seems more prolematic.

 

[water_boy]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

how does it work in Australia? just out of curiousity.

im not 100% sure on how it works in England. i know that when i was at school a few of the guys i played with represented at county youth level. im not sure how they got picked for that, i think there are probably county scouts who search for good young players in the youth sides at county-based clubs, and in school sides. then lots of players represent the county in various sides and at training sessions, and the very best players get taken on into the academy. theres a guy at my club who was playing for county, as far as i am aware he was picked for county and played and trained exclusively with them, not alongside a club. but for some reason he didnt like that setup so he plays club cricket now in both the colts and mens teams, but hes still an U15 player really. il try and find out off him how it works.

im more curious as to how it works with adults, or if indeed it even does. say theres a player in a fairly high division at club level performing really well. but they are mid-20's, but clearly worthy of county cricket. do counties even consider bringing in inexperienced older players, or do they recruit at youth level and ignore anything beyond it? there are quite a few ex-county players that play top level club cricket once they "retire", there are some international players as well!! so its not like the standard isnt up there with county cricket.

Well this is how it works in Victoria, not sure how in other states. If you are a decent player you will play in under 14s, 16s or 18s for your region. You will play in a two week carnival against all of the other regions (metro and country) and from this they pick the under-age Victoria teams (Under 15s, 17s, 19s). The whole point of these under-age region and state teams are so these talented young cricketers go on and join a district/grade club, which is pretty much the same regions playing against eachother, but the adult version and this lasts the whole cricket season, not just two weeks. There are 4 XI's at these clubs and once you are playing in the 1st XI and doing quite well, you may be looked at by state selectors for a Victoria 2nd XI or a rookie contract, if you do well in these then you might be awarded a full Contract and play in the Australian Domestic competition. A few of the players who have full Victoria Contracts will still play games for their club if they can't get a game for Victoria and if Victoria have a break in competition then some players will play 1 or 2 games for their clubs (David Hussey, Peter Siddle). So this is a very strong competition and you need to be quite good to play in it. I would imagine that district/grade cricket 1st XI would be nearly as strong as county cricket in England as there are so few states.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Well this is how it works in Victoria, not sure how in other states. If you are a decent player you will play in under 14s, 16s or 18s for your region. You will play in a two week carnival against all of the other regions (metro and country) and from this they pick the under-age Victoria teams (Under 15s, 17s, 19s). The whole point of these under-age region and state teams are so these talented young cricketers go on and join a district/grade club, which is pretty much the same regions playing against eachother, but the adult version and this lasts the whole cricket season, not just two weeks. There are 4 XI's at these clubs and once you are playing in the 1st XI and doing quite well, you may be looked at by state selectors for a Victoria 2nd XI or a rookie contract, if you do well in these then you might be awarded a full Contract and play in the Australian Domestic competition. A few of the players who have full Victoria Contracts will still play games for their club if they can't get a game for Victoria and if Victoria have a break in competition then some players will play 1 or 2 games for their clubs (David Hussey, Peter Siddle). So this is a very strong competition and you need to be quite good to play in it. I would imagine that district/grade cricket 1st XI would be nearly as strong as county cricket in England as there are so few states.

i found out better how it works in the UK. basically you play for a club as a kid, and if youre good you get spotted and then you get invited to play for the county at your age group. you then play games against other counties generally, every few weeks through the season, but also play for a club at the same time if you wish to.

within each age group the county generally only looks to take the best 1-2 players through, so at the youngest age groups they start to establish who looks to have more natural talent than everyone else, and then they refine their choices through the years until by the time everyone gets to 14-15 years old they have a clear idea of who is good enough to make it at county level and who isnt. then they bias the whole team around those players. so in other words if there is a great batsman who also bowls really well, theyll open both and get as much playing time as possible. everyone else kind of just makes up the numbers. so players who dont think they are going to make it tend to stop to focus on club cricket instead. because at county level they play other counties sometimes you might have a 4 or 5 hour round trip to play, and then get to do nothing except stand in the field the entire time and not get a bat!!

then players from the youth level either get rejected or get taken into the county setup with a contract id imagine. im not sure if there is an actual academy in most cases, or if the youth teams count as the academy.

if youre not taken in by your county by the time you reach about 18 then you basically go to club cricket. if youre good then you look to move up, youve got to make it to the absolute top level of club cricket though id think to even stand a chance of getting noticed. the clubs in the top divisions are generally all good players. if you stand out enough then you might get a chance with a county.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

The Top-Spinning Flipper (Mystery Ball) in my experience is the one that makes the most pronounced click, but the more modern (Warnesque) Flipper if bowed as Grimmett seems to have done with using 3 or 4 fingers also makes a fairly loud click. Reading Grimmetts taking wickets as far as I can recall (although I may go back and check it) I got the sense that Grimmett started with the Off-spinning flipper with the palm facing the bat as it was released so that the bat would see the hand position and expect a Leg Break and then the ball would turn as an off-spinner? It then reads as though he then realised that using the 'Round the loop' theory the Top-spinning flipper came next and then the other two. The book being published in 1930 and your research into the account above suggests that he could well have been bowling the Top-Spinning ball years prior to 1930? The more you dig up about Grimmett Macca the more it convinces me that the real 'Flipper' is the Top-Spinning version and the more I bowl it the more I'm becoming convinced that it's a far superior ball then the back-spinning Flipper a la' Warne et al. For me the back-spinning flipper is just too much like a conventional seamers ball and batsmen tend to deal with it fairly readliy. It may only work affectively if bowled maybe once or twice in a 6 over spell? Whereas the Top-Spinner dips, swings and in my case breaks slighly like an off-spin and seems more prolematic.

I have not looked at all the stuff I have got on grimmett lately due to a family health crisis. But I found he definately considered the topspinner the best way to bowl his "flipper". But , as you say , he first thought it would work best as the offspinner with the palm facing the batsman he called that his "flipper offbreak" that term is the earliest record of the use of the word "flipper" to describe what he usually called his "mystery ball"
It was only after Benaud had success with the backspinning flipper that Grimmett realised that perhaps the backspinner was his greatest discovery , if he had lived to have seen Warne he would have seen this proved again but than no-one has really tried to bowl the other flippers at test level have they?

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I totatally agree that length is the most important thing. as anything to short or to full is easy picking for a batsman regardless of how much you get it to turn, drift or dip. too full is better than short though.

I've been told that a have a really good length by batsman who say that they are unsure if they they should play backward or forward to the ball. this split second of indecision makes all the difference. I would recommend the hula hoop as a target that I mentioned in an earlier post.

hula hoop is a good size target. Benauds coin sized target is far too small and will lead to accuracy but little spin , much like Benauds own bowling, especially his early years.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah it seems weird that no-one at test level or county/state level seems to bowl the Mystery ball. Hope your family's okay.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

i went along to club net practice today. as usual, no adults. i bowled on my own for about 20 mins then a couple of the youngsters emerged from the bar and had a bat. i was bowling really well straight from the outset, good line and length, good turn. so i bowled a few deliveries to the first kid and he was struggling a bit. he made a comment along the lines of "your bowling has got so much better in the past couple of weeks, how much have you been practicing? before everything was going down leg by miles, now its almost always at the stumps". so im obviously doing something right, i dont necessarily notice these improvements myself, but for someone else to say it means i must be getting better.

anyway, then he had to go home so a slightly older kid had a bat, hes probably about 15, and he was fully padded up, helmet and everything and really going for it. first ball up i got one to rip and it went from there lol. i dont think he played a single shot (aside from the odd wide one down the leg side) that was 100% controlled, the number of times i found edges was insane. i didnt manage to actually bowl him, but at least 10 went within a few inches, usually with too much bounce and clearing the top of the stumps.

all in all it was an excellent session, if i can bowl like that at the weekend il take wickets for sure. i was probably taking a wicket every 3 balls today lol (in terms of catches, stumpings and LBW's). also, he was trying to come down the wicket at times and i had the tactics to counteract it (drop the odd one shorter, or bowl a slider, etc) and he was trying to sweep me so i bowled a ripping top spinner and almost got him in the chin lol.

so far as my variation development is going, its coming along in huge leaps lately. when im having a good session and my leg break is consistent i guess it frees me up to try some different things. ive got a ripping top spinner now that bounces huge. at the nets on Tuesday i got a couple to bounce head height, literally. today i managed the same on several occasions. and my overspun leg breaks are bouncing very high, the batsman commented on the additional bounce and said it made it just as hard to play me as the big turn i was getting.

my round-the-looop slider still isnt there, its just a big leg break for now that stays low. ive now got a scrambled seam slider though that does skid through! i tricked both batsmen with it a few times.

also, ive been trying to develop an overspun off-break flipper delivery, aka the Grimmett "mystery ball". the first one i bowled against the first kid came out awesomely, bounced just outside off quite short and then zipped back in and had him scrambling to stop it hitting the stumps. he said "was that a googly?" with absolute amazement and shock. it took him completely by surprise, and he also said that it looked exactly the same as my leg breaks, in both delivery and flight!! the older kid also got tricked by it and was just as surprised. its an awesome delivery when it comes out right, way better than the backspinning flipper from what ive tried.

i still cant bowl a conventional round-the-loop googly, so for now that is my only off spinning option. used sparingly i think it could get me some results though. it doesnt turn much, maybe comes back in 6" at most. but after youve bowled a few dozen consecutive leg breaks that are all turning well its the last thing on a batsmans mind.

one other cool thing i figured out today is a huge ripping leg break from round the wicket. in theory it should just be the same as over the wicket, but i alter my run up a bit and it allows to somehow generate more spin. i got one to pitch 2 feet outside leg stump on a full length and still turn back across and pass off stump by about an inch!! bowl that first delivery up to a batsman thats never played me before and get them bricking it. then go over the wicket 2nd ball and watch them trying to fend anything wide of leg stump for fear of being bowled around their legs lol. thats what happened this evening!! will make for fewer wides, and hopefully more dot balls when my bowling gets a little wayward on line.

cant wait for Sunday now

 

[abdul qadir junior]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

i went along to club net practice today. as usual, no adults. i bowled on my own for about 20 mins then a couple of the youngsters emerged from the bar and had a bat. i was bowling really well straight from the outset, good line and length, good turn. so i bowled a few deliveries to the first kid and he was struggling a bit. he made a comment along the lines of "your bowling has got so much better in the past couple of weeks, how much have you been practicing? before everything was going down leg by miles, now its almost always at the stumps". so im obviously doing something right, i dont necessarily notice these improvements myself, but for someone else to say it means i must be getting better.

anyway, then he had to go home so a slightly older kid had a bat, hes probably about 15, and he was fully padded up, helmet and everything and really going for it. first ball up i got one to rip and it went from there lol. i dont think he played a single shot (aside from the odd wide one down the leg side) that was 100% controlled, the number of times i found edges was insane. i didnt manage to actually bowl him, but at least 10 went within a few inches, usually with too much bounce and clearing the top of the stumps.

all in all it was an excellent session, if i can bowl like that at the weekend il take wickets for sure. i was probably taking a wicket every 3 balls today lol (in terms of catches, stumpings and LBW's). also, he was trying to come down the wicket at times and i had the tactics to counteract it (drop the odd one shorter, or bowl a slider, etc) and he was trying to sweep me so i bowled a ripping top spinner and almost got him in the chin lol.

so far as my variation development is going, its coming along in huge leaps lately. when im having a good session and my leg break is consistent i guess it frees me up to try some different things. ive got a ripping top spinner now that bounces huge. at the nets on Tuesday i got a couple to bounce head height, literally. today i managed the same on several occasions. and my overspun leg breaks are bouncing very high, the batsman commented on the additional bounce and said it made it just as hard to play me as the big turn i was getting.

my round-the-looop slider still isnt there, its just a big leg break for now that stays low. ive now got a scrambled seam slider though that does skid through! i tricked both batsmen with it a few times.

also, ive been trying to develop an overspun off-break flipper delivery, aka the Grimmett "mystery ball". the first one i bowled against the first kid came out awesomely, bounced just outside off quite short and then zipped back in and had him scrambling to stop it hitting the stumps. he said "was that a googly?" with absolute amazement and shock. it took him completely by surprise, and he also said that it looked exactly the same as my leg breaks, in both delivery and flight!! the older kid also got tricked by it and was just as surprised. its an awesome delivery when it comes out right, way better than the backspinning flipper from what ive tried.

i still cant bowl a conventional round-the-loop googly, so for now that is my only off spinning option. used sparingly i think it could get me some results though. it doesnt turn much, maybe comes back in 6" at most. but after youve bowled a few dozen consecutive leg breaks that are all turning well its the last thing on a batsmans mind.

one other cool thing i figured out today is a huge ripping leg break from round the wicket. in theory it should just be the same as over the wicket, but i alter my run up a bit and it allows to somehow generate more spin. i got one to pitch 2 feet outside leg stump on a full length and still turn back across and pass off stump by about an inch!! bowl that first delivery up to a batsman thats never played me before and get them bricking it. then go over the wicket 2nd ball and watch them trying to fend anything wide of leg stump for fear of being bowled around their legs lol. thats what happened this evening!! will make for fewer wides, and hopefully more dot balls when my bowling gets a little wayward on line.

cant wait for Sunday now

Jim mate, we need some vidz of ur bowling mate. I've not played for a few weeks as people have started playing football. My leg break turns alot and my wrongun a little less but the slower i bowl the wrongun the more turn i get. I'll be putting alot of practice in on my top spinner which sometimes goes straight with bounce and sometime like a little leggie with bounce.
I need to work alot on the flipper. I'm thinking of bowling the slider with a scrambled seam but how do i run my fingers for it? towards myself??

Also if i can bowl the flipper do i not need the slider? or viseversa?

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Jim mate, we need some vidz of ur bowling mate. I've not played for a few weeks as people have started playing football. My leg break turns alot and my wrongun a little less but the slower i bowl the wrongun the more turn i get. I'll be putting alot of practice in on my top spinner which sometimes goes straight with bounce and sometime like a little leggie with bounce.
I need to work alot on the flipper. I'm thinking of bowling the slider with a scrambled seam but how do i run my fingers for it? towards myself??

Also if i can bowl the flipper do i not need the slider? or viseversa?

i need to get a video, ive got the camera to do it, its just tricky to find a time when the weather is 100% safe, the wind isnt crazy strong, and im bowling well for a sustained length of time!! because it sometimes takes me an hour before i find any rhythm at all, i cant just roll up at the nets for 10 mins, take a video and leave.

also, the slow motion feature on the camera requires someone to be manning it within 3 seconds of me bowling to push the button. so il need someone to assist with that. i need to find someone that doesnt mind standing about for potentially 2 hours just to press a button 5 times lol.

il get it sorted soon enough.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

with regards the slider/flipper having both is beneficial. they both do very different things, in the same way as all the different sliders do.

my simple slider is just a leg break with a scrambled seam. i simply hold the ball with the seam pointing at 45 degrees (e.g. halfway between the normal leg spin grip, and a seamers grip). you could hold it like a seamer, but it would look more obvious to an attentive batsman, this way they wont pick it easily. then i use the exact same action as i do for my leg break, with maximum revolutions so that the ball might still move around in the air, when it hits the pitch the chances are its on a shiny surface and not the seam, and it just skids through at a low'ish height and fairly quickly.

the flipper on the other hand with backspin will stay MUCH lower, and also arrive at the batsman faster than they expect. so its still beneficial to have both options. the simple slider i described above is so easy to bowl that anyone can do it so long as they can bowl a normal leg break. the flipper isnt so easy.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Good work with Top Spinning Flipper Jim, I reckon this forum will end up ressurecting the TS Flipper from it's 70 year old grave! Other than on here and in Grimmetts book I've never heard anyone else bowling it ever. Now there's 4 of us that have got it!

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Abdul make sure you keep working on your Leg Break. What do you want video of - The whole delivery or just close ups of the grips and explanations. I might be able to knock out a video for you - what end do you want to see it from stump cam angles or from behind the bowler?

 

[abdul qadir junior]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Abdul make sure you keep working on your Leg Break. What do you want video of - The whole delivery or just close ups of the grips and explanations. I might be able to knock out a video for you - what end do you want to see it from stump cam angles or from behind the bowler?

I 'd like close ups of the grips and explanations on the slider if u can please. Like the flipper videos. I want to know the different ways to bowl the slider. There's no good tutorials online of the slider. I especially want to know the explanation of warnes slider when the seam is scrambled and the slider when the thumb is facing the bowler. Thanks in advance

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I'll see what I can do over the weekend. I'll try and knock up two different variations of the Slider and the grips is something I was hoping to do anyway. I'll let you know how I get on over the next couple of days.

 

[abdul qadir junior]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I'll see what I can do over the weekend. I'll try and knock up two different variations of the Slider and the grips is something I was hoping to do anyway. I'll let you know how I get on over the next couple of days.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I'll see what I can do over the weekend. I'll try and knock up two different variations of the Slider and the grips is something I was hoping to do anyway. I'll let you know how I get on over the next couple of days.

the ones to probably cover first are the round-the-loop method and the one that looks like a leg break (same grip) but the hand comes down the back of the ball instead of across/around it like a leg break (how Shane Warne predominantly bowled his later in his career).

there are so many ways to bowl it though. ive got 3 myself, 2 are easy 1 is hard. theres another 2 or 3 that i know of but dont use/havent tried.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

They're the ones I'll cover

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Adil Rashid got the nod for England today in their ODI against Australia. England batted first and Rashid wasnt great, only 4 runs, but Brett Lee took 4 awesome wickets with mid-90mph yorkers, including Rashid!

hes come on to bowl at 2nd change, England struggling already, and in 2 overs hes gone for 10 and 9, 19 total. he bowled one delivery so wide down the leg side that it barely even bounced on the wicket, and somehow Ponting still hit it for a 4 at fine leg lol. theres been a couple called wide, and a couple that would have been had there not been bat on them.

hes just bowling his 3rd over now, with so few runs on the board for England im not sure how hes supposed to bowl with any kind of aggression though. the batsmen can just tickle him around and capitalise on anything loose. this match wont do anything towards staking his claim in the test side though.