Wrist Spin Bowling

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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;346288 said:
What I mean is whereas right hand leggies have a legbreak as a stock delivery, if you are a china man your stock ball would be an offspinner in the sense it spins from off to leg. Your wrong one should spin from leg to off. By the way if you have been coached please pass on any advice as we are all very willing to learn here.
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I have been in a selected spin clinic a couple of times and was taught by Graham House and on one occasion Terry Jenner. To be honest I didn't like Terry too much but Graham was great. One of the best things I've learnt from him is the use the body at the crease, ensuring you turn with the deliver getting your front leg high through the rotation.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah I'm not sure. As I said if it's just a case of his hand being rotated 45 degrees round clockwise (Right handed - I seem to recall is La Gecko might a Chinaman in which case all this is in reverse) he'll be putting off-spin on it. I'll have to check back through the thread to see if he is a China man otherwise this is going to get confusing.....
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yes he is so....Blimey this is going to strain my brain!!! Right if you have your left arm come over with the palm of your hand facing the bat and then produce the Flipper click the ball with spin away to the off-side like a RH Wrist Spinners Leg Break. In order to get that Top-Spinning mystery ball his hand would have to rotate another 45 degrees anti-clockwise so that the Flipper click would be pushing the ball out of the bottom of his hand back towards himself, but obviously be propelled forwards by the overall bowling action. The ball would then be a Top-spinning Flipper (Grimmetts mystery ball).

Sorted.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

From my main blog -

"Yeah I'm not really that good facing the faster bowlers, it's spin that I'm good at playing" As he faced another of Jeff's off-spinners despatching the ball with relative ease. Hearing that was music to my ears and eventually the ball was handed to me.....

Get the full account at Wrist Spin Bowling: Now that was good!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

La Gecko;346312 said:
I have been in a selected spin clinic a couple of times and was taught by Graham House and on one occasion Terry Jenner. To be honest I didn't like Terry too much but Graham was great. One of the best things I've learnt from him is the use the body at the crease, ensuring you turn with the deliver getting your front leg high through the rotation.
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Good stuff, I'm glad you're on song with the high front leg in the delivery/rotation, this is one of the key points that comes out of the Beua Casson clip and it's good to be reminded of it. It could be it's one of these little pointers that might bring all my work together and get me down the track with my 'Proper Leg Break'.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Heh, I think I have been misunderstood. I should have explained myself better.

I wasn't refering to the leg-break wrist position; but the wrist flick itself.

It was in relation to this:
La Gecko said:
...i don't really roll by wrist forward in a leg spin manner... but more in an off spin manner...
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In other words I was saying that it would be impossible to bowl a flipper with a leg-break wrist flick, as the clicking your fingers makes your hand turn backwards. Maybe I misunderstood what Le Gecko was saying, but it seemed to me that he was asking for clarification on whether he was getting the clicking of the fingers release action correct.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The Edge Of Willow;346305 said:
I highly doubt that. Leg spinners don't bowl fast enough to get reverse swing.
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What is it that I'm getting with my Flipper then? If I aim it at the middle stump it curves away towards Leg Slip, then bounces back in towards the stumps like a little Leg Break.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

La Gecko, what is your thumb doing immediately after you release the ball, which way is it facing and pointing?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;346361 said:
What is it that I'm getting with my Flipper then? If I aim it at the middle stump it curves away towards Leg Slip, then bounces back in towards the stumps like a little Leg Break.
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If it curves away you could call it curve.
It cant be reverse swing, the only legspinner who may have been able to reverse it would have been O' Reilly, and even he wouldn't have been fast enough to reverse swing. Sadspinner was only joking I suspect.
I left that photo of our old mate Mushtaq in there, Dave.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;346583 said:
La Gecko, what is your thumb doing immediately after you release the ball, which way is it facing and pointing?
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It ends up resting upon my index finger, similar if not the same as when clicking your fingers.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;346370 said:
If it curves away you could call it curve.
It cant be reverse swing, the only legspinner who may have been able to reverse it would have been O' Reilly, and even he wouldn't have been fast enough to reverse swing. Sadspinner was only joking I suspect.
I left that photo of our old mate Mushtaq in there, Dave.
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Was just testing. Unless dave is a waqar or imran there is no way it is reverse. I still think though what he gets is swing. He has backspin and the seam is vertical acting as a rudder, so i suspect it is swing. I do get some movement in the air but not so dramatic. The fact that one surface being rougher than the other,swing is the probability. When i try to bowl a seam up, the ball seems to swing inwards, especially if bowled full. In my country it is rather humid so this may be an element. It would be interesting to see whether bowling the flipper with the seam not travelling vertically has the same effect on this swing. I suspect that it would not be as exaggerated. Though to be honest right now more worried about the potentially impending pandemic of swine flu.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Ok everyone seems to be a bit confused what I'm talking about as I wasn't too clear, so I'll try and make it clearer now.

If I were to stand up and place my left arm (bowling arm) straight up with my palm facing the batsman and were to attempt the flipper from that position with just use of the fingers the ball would end up spinning away from the right hand batsman like an off break. As such that position of the wrist facing forwards would not create the flipper back spinning effect. So I am assuming that I must rotate my arm to the left 90 degrees so the back of my hand is facing me and the palm is facing out like the top spinner as to have the ball spinning backwards when doing the flipper.

I would just like to confirm my assumption...
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

If Dave can get the backspin on his delivery he gets in the youtube clip, he must get some swing, the flipper should squeeze out really fast, that is very important.
A lot of the flipper bowlers used to also make some sort of an attempt to disguise or hide their grip during their approach.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah I misunderstood.

I think your assumption is correct; but I'm not exactly the most knowledge able on the flipper.

I can't see any way else you would do it though, so I think it is correct.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

if the flipper is turning then it won't be swing it will be drift but if the seam is upright with only backspin it should be swing
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

La Gecko;346607 said:
Ok everyone seems to be a bit confused what I'm talking about as I wasn't too clear, so I'll try and make it clearer now.

'If I were to stand up and place my left arm (bowling arm) straight up with my palm facing the batsman and were to attempt the flipper from that position with just use of the fingers the ball would end up spinning away from the right hand batsman like an off break'.

Yep that sounds right.

'As such that position of the wrist facing forwards would not create the flipper back spinning effect'.

Yep, that's correct.

'So I am assuming that I must rotate my arm to the left 90 degrees so the back of my hand is facing me and the palm is facing out like the top spinner as to have the ball spinning backwards when doing the flipper'.

When you say your palm is facing out you mean - to the left with your thumb facing forwards. If so that it!

I would just like to confirm my assumption...
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Yep that sounds like the boy!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Grimmett says "the palm should be facing mid-on at the top of the swing" in his brief description of the flipper. I suppose it does at the "top". La Geckos' thumb ends up against his index finger , which is right, I just wanted to make sure his thumb ended up in that thumbs down position,sort of like the ancient Romans at the coliseum, and not some way else.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;346370 said:
If it curves away you could call it curve.
It cant be reverse swing, the only legspinner who may have been able to reverse it would have been O' Reilly, and even he wouldn't have been fast enough to reverse swing. Sadspinner was only joking I suspect.
I left that photo of our old mate Mushtaq in there, Dave.
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I hadn't seen that till now - is that you in the shot as well? I just noticed that the shots in the book are at Manly and for some reason when I was talking about surfing a while back I mentioned Dee Why beach and it's Manly I'm getting confused with Dee Why? I can only imagine my Aussie mate lived at both at some time, I'm going to have to look them up on a google earth and see where they are in relation to each other. No doubt miles away and I'm talking out of my A**e here and should just shut up?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

This was started off in a new thread so I've brought it over to where it should be....

When I bowl, i feel as if I am giving the ball too much flight, but then I hear people saying that, as a spinner, flight is what you want. But, I still get the feeling that my bowling is too flighted and extremely slow!! Also, my length can sometimes be an issue, I usually bowl it too full and the batsman play that easily. Is that because of my flight?? I know leg spinners are unique in flight, spin, pace etc but I always think that I am just a bowler who flights it a lot!

* I think the first thing is - how long have you been trying to bowl Wrist Spin/Leg Spin?
* Your speed and flight isn't particularly an issue, you can be dead slow and have a loopy flight the key issue is do you get it to spin off the wicket? If can get it to turn off the wicket, you're on your way and a little more understanding off what you're trying to do will help you out a great deal.
* In the short term assuming that you are getting it to turn, it sounds as though maybe you should look to vary your length, line, flight and speed. This alone should make a positive difference.



One more thing-I find it really hard to follow through-the whole rotating the shoulders thing- When I try this, I feel that I am bowling too fast and I usually drag it down and it goes short and is slogged!

I would appreciate a few tips off you more experienced bowlers, to help me tidy up my bowling!

* Can you video your action and upload it to youtube and we'll have a look at it?
* Have you seen the Beau Casson clip on you tube where he demonstrates some drills for this?

Thanks![/QUOTE]
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

It sounds like I'm going to have to try and video this swerving Flipper to settle the issue. If the weather holds out tomorrow and is dry in the evening I'll get the camera on the field and shoot some footage. I wonder which end and what angle would be best to do it from? What do you reckon?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

We had a good night at indoor cricket last night. The best thing was because of how the net was situated I could get a close-up, side -on view of my sons bowling in match- like conditions.

Normally he only bowls at about 75% in the nets, if that, but last night I was really pleased at the spring and fluency of his run-up. I was worried that the key phrases he uses , "head still" and "watch target" may have been taking a bit of the energy out of his approach, but I was really happy with his run-up and delivery.

Also his faster less flighted ball has improved , before it was too short. His indoor coach is a good legspinner and was showing him a zooter last night. He was also helping him with his backspinner and when to turn his wrist to get it right.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

gundalf7;346375 said:
if the flipper is turning then it won't be swing it will be drift but if the seam is upright with only backspin it should be swing
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The turn is pretty small and I suspect the damp/green grass exaggerates the turn off the pitch. For all intents and purposes the seam is straight, but who knows what happens in those fractions of seconds as the arm comes over and the ball is released.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

As a wrist spinner you have to be able to on most occassions really give the ball lots of flight, over the batsmans eyeline, but on other occassions you need to be able dart it in flatter and faster.

It may depend on conditions or the style of batsman. Someone who doesnt come forward and stays back on the crease should recieve their fair share of fuller more flighted deliveries, whereas someone keen to come forward and use their feet and hit through the offside may be contained by flatter darts aimed at middle stump.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;346378 said:
It sounds like I'm going to have to try and video this swerving Flipper to settle the issue. If the weather holds out tomorrow and is dry in the evening I'll get the camera on the field and shoot some footage. I wonder which end and what angle would be best to do it from? What do you reckon?
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Stumpcam would be good! I can't wait to see the clip, my young bloke will be interested ,I know that.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Good work, the back spinner still elludes me with regards the Slider and I'm not going to even attempt it till I get the Biggun sussed. Sounds like your son's doing really well Macca, hopefully my son Joe will follow the same kind of route. At his club there was a bloke showing some stuff when they did their last training session, he was explaining the grip to him. He took 2 wickets off of 2 overs so that was pretty good.


My lads have got their first real match not this Sunday but the next at a place called Orsett just down the road, I didn't even know there was a pitch there http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v...&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&scene=12461359&encType=1 thing is they're so unprepared (The team) and the only practice session they've got would have been this Monday but it's bank holiday, so they'll be straight into the game with only one practice on grass (last week) before the match. Still that's how it'll have to be.

I'm looking at not being selected for the 2nd week running with my own team which is pretty grim. So grim in fact that I'm going to go down to the local field this Sunday where another team play regularly and see if they need any players as the word is they're often short of players. I'm well miffed with the situation with my own team.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

At the impact end? It's a 300 quid camera, I suppose if I put the camera near the base of the stumps and the ball hits the stumps the camer will be alright. Maybe I'll try both ends. On a high tripod above my head looking from behind me down the wicket sounds like a better option and the ball then wont disappear out of shot as it approaches the lens and you'll see the full extent of the curve and the final spin away at the end.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;346840 said:
As a wrist spinner you have to be able to on most occassions really give the ball lots of flight, over the batsmans eyeline, but on other occassions you need to be able dart it in flatter and faster.

It may depend on conditions or the style of batsman. Someone who doesnt come forward and stays back on the crease should recieve their fair share of fuller more flighted deliveries, whereas someone keen to come forward and use their feet and hit through the offside may be contained by flatter darts aimed at middle stump.
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I had a good night in the nets last night bowling and batting. But the trickiest customer batting was a kid of about 13. It took a few balls to suss him out as he's a Chinaman and possibly understood what I was trying to do. Initially I was bowling Leg Breaks, wrong uns and Flippers all at a reasonable speed right under his nose and he was dealing with them all with some ease. Then I deployed the Top Spinner a few times and he seemed to see it and realise it was going to drop short and struggle to play it off his legs, so I bowled a mixture of Top Spinners and Wrong Uns dropping them all much shorter and slower and after a few balls he came down the pitch and I got a wrong un past him on about the 4th ball. Maybe at last I'm beginning to deploy tactics and here I am not being selected so far this year!!!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

dave i've found some old footage of me bowling the flipper and one of them has some really nice inswing so I uploaded it to youtube so you can see if its similar as I know this is swing and not drift. The thrid ball is the one with swing into a right hander(towards leg side)

YouTube - flipper_swing
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Dave it is only early in the season so I wouldn't worry too much about non-selction, but what if it turns out they dont appreciate leg spin in your team but someone else will give you a game every week, would you change clubs?

In the age group your boys will be playing, what sort of pitches do they play on? What size, 18 yards? There never seems to be a lot of justice at that age in that good bowling isn't always rewarded, and poor catching and keeping can rob the young bowler of many wickets.

I remember reading in an article by Stuart Mc Gill where he said to expect a young legspinner, if he is spinning the ball ,to get lots of wickets in the early years but the wickets will tend to dry up as he gets into his teen years.

In relation to flighting the ball, another instance where you might not want to is on a wicket where not even the legspinner can get any turn, on that giving the ball too much loop could be a disaster. The big leg-break with some backspin will spin on just about anything, but a well rolled, or glassy, evenly grassed, hard deck even blunted Warnes spin sometimes.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;346361 said:
What is it that I'm getting with my Flipper then? If I aim it at the middle stump it curves away towards Leg Slip, then bounces back in towards the stumps like a little Leg Break.
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It's probably contrast swing. I suppose it could be conventional; but that would require it to have a reasonably raised seam, and for the seam to come out at the angle for a conventional in-swinger, which seems unlikely for a flipper.

My guess is that it is probably contrast swing.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Just thought I'd let you know how I bowled today. We versed the best team in the grade, undefeated for god knows how long. I came in and bowled a fairly good first over and had one of their key batsmen dropped off a an absolute sitter. Next over was worse in the field with two 4's going straight past a fielder and another due to my horrible line and length that ball, I was taken off because of this :(.
I think I need to work on my consistency with the leg break, going from 4 for 13 including a hatrick last week to no wickets this week :(. What's even worse is I got out from one of my mates in the opposing team when batting!

So just wondering what drills you would recommend for working on a consistent line and length.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

gundalf7;346390 said:
dave i've found some old footage of me bowling the flipper and one of them has some really nice inswing so I uploaded it to youtube so you can see if its similar as I know this is swing and not drift. The thrid ball is the one with swing into a right hander(towards leg side)

YouTube - flipper_swing
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The 2nd one looks really obvious, the first and 3rd versions it's difficult to see, but they're the ones that swing in the manner that mine do. How do you get it to swing different ways? Is that done by angling the seam slightly and having the shiny side on the inside of the curve direction?

I'll see what I come up with tonight if I get time and the weather holds out. At the minute it's lovely and sunny so it looks promising.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

We do a lot of work with bowling at targets and no batsman. We chalk out rectangles of corridors where good length bowling should land. We vary them for bowling at left handers.

There is no need for the targets to be small, especially to begin with, because there is actually a large area to land the ball effectively whilst still working on accuracy. We are not trying to land on a handkerchief or Benauds coin-sized paint spot but rather a large shape ,say two foot by six foot mainly outside offstump

Another target we use is a vinyl circle about 1 foot in diameter and I will place this on the pitch and vary it after every ball, it is not expected to hit this target often, especially at first. It is important to watch or have someone watch for you exactly where it is landing each ball. You have to consider each delivery and discuss its line and length before anything else such as spin.

Grimmett gives a target of 3 feet x 3 feet, on the stumps and about three yards in front of the popping crease. He used paint and brush.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;346465 said:
How do you get it to swing different ways? Is that done by angling the seam slightly and having the shiny side on the inside of the curve direction?
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yeah I was just angling it really slightly and it was just swinging if the seam stayed straight. I thought the 3rd was the most obvious the ball should have ended outside off and you can see if come back in. Yeah it wasn't so good in the dark but the footage is over 6 months old I just dug it up out my hardrive.

I don't really bowl the flipper as often as I did though as it makes my thumb swell up which effects my normal grip so I don't practice it regularly anymore.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;346861 said:
We do a lot of work with bowling at targets and no batsman. We chalk out rectangles of corridors where good length bowling should land. We vary them for bowling at left handers.

There is no need for the targets to be small, especially to begin with, because there is actually a large area to land the ball effectively whilst still working on accuracy. We are not trying to land on a handkerchief or Benauds coin-sized paint spot but rather a large shape ,say two foot by six foot mainly outside offstump

Another target we use is a vinyl circle about 1 foot in diameter and I will place this on the pitch and vary it after every ball, it is not expected to hit this target often, especially at first. It is important to watch or have someone watch for you exactly where it is landing each ball. You have to consider each delivery and discuss its line and length before anything else such as spin.

Grimmett gives a target of 3 feet x 3 feet, on the stumps and about three yards in front of the popping crease. He used paint and brush.
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As a Chinaman where would you recommend pitching? about 3 paces forward of the batting crease and a little outside off?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

That's really weird to me to think that people have issues with the physical mechanics of bowling the Flipper. I can see that it has a big jarring affect on the joints and there is a weird thing that I do (rarely now) where when you're squeezing the ball out between your finger and thumb the joints twist and snap violently the wrong way and it feels as though you might have dislocated your thumb for a micro second. That's a really sickening feeling for that split second as it feels so wrong. But I've had deep internal blisters under the skin on the finger and a slightly sore joint in the thumb recently when I was bowling the Flipper inwards towards myself to get top spin - but generally it's fine. But I suppose it's a case of different size hands and fingers either assist with bowling it or maybe make it more difficult? I'd certainly stop if my joints were swelling up, I wonder if as you get older Gundalf it might be possible or not be as bad?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

La Gecko;346863 said:
As a Chinaman where would you recommend pitching? about 3 paces forward of the batting crease and a little outside off?
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As a rough measurement that sounds pretty good. That might be a well pitched ball in a lot of circumstances but it varies a fair bit of course.

If you could consistently land it around that spot you would have gained good control.

Philpott reckons young legspinners especially should begin their bowling spell with a line well wide of offstump and move it over towards middle and off as they settle in and warm up. I dont know about left arm unorthodox though. You need to have your field set right.
 
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