Wrist Spin Bowling

Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Contributors
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Alright, I'll keep practicing with tennis balls. Just would like to clarify when you release the ball your hand is facing away from you like the top spinner, and the wrist doesn't rotate too much, if anything a small degree backwards in the manner of an offie?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

La Gecko;346312 said:
I have been in a selected spin clinic a couple of times and was taught by Graham House and on one occasion Terry Jenner. To be honest I didn't like Terry too much but Graham was great. One of the best things I've learnt from him is the use the body at the crease, ensuring you turn with the deliver getting your front leg high through the rotation.
Click to expand...


Good stuff, I'm glad you're on song with the high front leg in the delivery/rotation, this is one of the key points that comes out of the Beua Casson clip and it's good to be reminded of it. It could be it's one of these little pointers that might bring all my work together and get me down the track with my 'Proper Leg Break'.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

La Gecko;346280 said:
Not sure what you mean here... It is definitely a leg spinner
Click to expand...

I think you need to get the book that we all refer to as the bible on here... Peter Philpotts 'The Art of Wrist Spinning' I've got it here behind me. In it Philpott explains by rotating your wrist around in different directions and releasing the ball in any of these wrist positions it's going to impart spin in different directions. So if you start to think about your Leg Break being the starting point the ball is normally released with the palm of the hand facing the bat and the wrist flicked anti-clockwise on release. This puts side spin on it so the ball comes out of your hand with the seam rotating at 90 degrees to the direction of travel spinning anti-clockwise.

So if you twist your wrist round now so that your thumb is facing the bat Legspin bowling: The Top Spinner the ball comes out with over-spin which is your top-spinner. So somewhere between the 2 you have a mixture of over-spin and side-spin. This gives you a smaller leg break with some dip.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The Edge Of Willow;346305 said:
I highly doubt that. Leg spinners don't bowl fast enough to get reverse swing.
Click to expand...

What is it that I'm getting with my Flipper then? If I aim it at the middle stump it curves away towards Leg Slip, then bounces back in towards the stumps like a little Leg Break.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

La Gecko;346265 said:
Alright mate thanks. Any ideas on a good variation to work on.

By The Way has anyone come up with their own unique variation? like the gipper
Click to expand...

Seemingly me, but Macca on here who's an Aussie and has access to some amazing books including those by the great Clarrie Grimmett has found reference to a ball that Grimmett worked on for more than a decade that he called the "Wrong wrong un". Reading the book Macca says the description of the Wrong wrong un sounds like my Gipper. The Gipper is a flipper and googly combined hence 'Gipper'. It's a Flipper that's been given the Peter Philpott treatement e.g. you twist your wrist around to create variations of the bog standard ball. So if you hold the ball in your hand and then twist your wrist round 180 degrees it then leaves your hand in a position whereby the only way you could release the ball is if you do so out of the back of the hand. Then when you do it can look like a Wrong Un, but it then turns the other way! It's a tricky ball though that relies on you having good mastery of the Flipper in the first instance.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;346361 said:
What is it that I'm getting with my Flipper then? If I aim it at the middle stump it curves away towards Leg Slip, then bounces back in towards the stumps like a little Leg Break.
Click to expand...

If it curves away you could call it curve.
It cant be reverse swing, the only legspinner who may have been able to reverse it would have been O' Reilly, and even he wouldn't have been fast enough to reverse swing. Sadspinner was only joking I suspect.
I left that photo of our old mate Mushtaq in there, Dave.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;346283 said:
I think you need to get the book that we all refer to as the bible on here... Peter Philpotts 'The Art of Wrist Spinning' I've got it here behind me. In it Philpott explains by rotating your wrist around in different directions and releasing the ball in any of these wrist positions it's going to impart spin in different directions. So if you start to think about your Leg Break being the starting point the ball is normally released with the palm of the hand facing the bat and the wrist flicked anti-clockwise on release. This puts side spin on it so the ball comes out of your hand with the seam rotating at 90 degrees to the direction of travel spinning anti-clockwise.

So if you twist your wrist round now so that your thumb is facing the bat Legspin bowling: The Top Spinner the ball comes out with over-spin which is your top-spinner. So somewhere between the 2 you have a mixture of over-spin and side-spin. This gives you a smaller leg break with some dip.
Click to expand...

Yes, I understand all that I've been taught well :). But I believe he is misunderstanding the position of my wrist or my action if he assumes it is an offie.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;346370 said:
If it curves away you could call it curve.
It cant be reverse swing, the only legspinner who may have been able to reverse it would have been O' Reilly, and even he wouldn't have been fast enough to reverse swing. Sadspinner was only joking I suspect.
I left that photo of our old mate Mushtaq in there, Dave.
Click to expand...

Was just testing. Unless dave is a waqar or imran there is no way it is reverse. I still think though what he gets is swing. He has backspin and the seam is vertical acting as a rudder, so i suspect it is swing. I do get some movement in the air but not so dramatic. The fact that one surface being rougher than the other,swing is the probability. When i try to bowl a seam up, the ball seems to swing inwards, especially if bowled full. In my country it is rather humid so this may be an element. It would be interesting to see whether bowling the flipper with the seam not travelling vertically has the same effect on this swing. I suspect that it would not be as exaggerated. Though to be honest right now more worried about the potentially impending pandemic of swine flu.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

La Gecko;346282 said:
Alright, I'll keep practicing with tennis balls. Just would like to clarify when you release the ball your hand is facing away from you like the top spinner, and the wrist doesn't rotate too much, if anything a small degree backwards in the manner of an offie?
Click to expand...

The back of the hand faces you as the arm reaches it's highest point and your thumb would be pointing at the bat as with the Top Spinner see this - Legspin bowling: The Flipper
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

If Dave can get the backspin on his delivery he gets in the youtube clip, he must get some swing, the flipper should squeeze out really fast, that is very important.
A lot of the flipper bowlers used to also make some sort of an attempt to disguise or hide their grip during their approach.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

That is right , it is the batsman that will tell you if you are getting drop, it is often something more experienced than seen , but even after one ball the good batsman will notice the drop and take it into account. But as Grimmett points out in his books the batsman will find it hard visually detecting the drop in flight as it is hard to determine the trajectory of an object heading straight towards you. A stiff breeze is more important than anything for your drop apart from how fast you can overspin the ball.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

if the flipper is turning then it won't be swing it will be drift but if the seam is upright with only backspin it should be swing
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

La Gecko;346285 said:
Yes, I understand all that I've been taught well :). But I believe he is misunderstanding the position of my wrist or my action if he assumes it is an offie.
Click to expand...

What I mean is whereas right hand leggies have a legbreak as a stock delivery, if you are a china man your stock ball would be an offspinner in the sense it spins from off to leg. Your wrong one should spin from leg to off. By the way if you have been coached please pass on any advice as we are all very willing to learn here.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

La Gecko;346285 said:
Yes, I understand all that I've been taught well :). But I believe he is misunderstanding the position of my wrist or my action if he assumes it is an offie.
Click to expand...

Yeah I see what you mean. I looks like Saddo's written something there a bit A**e about face?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;346370 said:
If it curves away you could call it curve.
It cant be reverse swing, the only legspinner who may have been able to reverse it would have been O' Reilly, and even he wouldn't have been fast enough to reverse swing. Sadspinner was only joking I suspect.
I left that photo of our old mate Mushtaq in there, Dave.
Click to expand...

I hadn't seen that till now - is that you in the shot as well? I just noticed that the shots in the book are at Manly and for some reason when I was talking about surfing a while back I mentioned Dee Why beach and it's Manly I'm getting confused with Dee Why? I can only imagine my Aussie mate lived at both at some time, I'm going to have to look them up on a google earth and see where they are in relation to each other. No doubt miles away and I'm talking out of my A**e here and should just shut up?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;346287 said:
That is right , it is the batsman that will tell you if you are getting drop, it is often something more experienced than seen , but even after one ball the good batsman will notice the drop and take it into account. But as Grimmett points out in his books the batsman will find it hard visually detecting the drop in flight as it is hard to determine the trajectory of an object heading straight towards you. A stiff breeze is more important than anything for your drop apart from how fast you can overspin the ball.
Click to expand...


That's interesting. Are we talking a headwind here as the optimum assistance in wind?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

It sounds like I'm going to have to try and video this swerving Flipper to settle the issue. If the weather holds out tomorrow and is dry in the evening I'll get the camera on the field and shoot some footage. I wonder which end and what angle would be best to do it from? What do you reckon?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;346288 said:
What I mean is whereas right hand leggies have a legbreak as a stock delivery, if you are a china man your stock ball would be an offspinner in the sense it spins from off to leg. Your wrong one should spin from leg to off. By the way if you have been coached please pass on any advice as we are all very willing to learn here.
Click to expand...

Ah see it all makes sense in the end we/I'm getting my China men all round my neck!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

gundalf7;346375 said:
if the flipper is turning then it won't be swing it will be drift but if the seam is upright with only backspin it should be swing
Click to expand...

The turn is pretty small and I suspect the damp/green grass exaggerates the turn off the pitch. For all intents and purposes the seam is straight, but who knows what happens in those fractions of seconds as the arm comes over and the ball is released.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;346290 said:
That's interesting. Are we talking a headwind here as the optimum assistance in wind?
Click to expand...

Yes headwind, Philpott says in his playing days he was usually more interested in the breeze than the pitch conditions!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;346378 said:
It sounds like I'm going to have to try and video this swerving Flipper to settle the issue. If the weather holds out tomorrow and is dry in the evening I'll get the camera on the field and shoot some footage. I wonder which end and what angle would be best to do it from? What do you reckon?
Click to expand...

Stumpcam would be good! I can't wait to see the clip, my young bloke will be interested ,I know that.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;346292 said:
Yes headwind, Philpott says in his playing days he was usually more interested in the breeze than the pitch conditions!
Click to expand...

Again this is one of those things that seem now to be so obvious, whereas last year not even knowing about the potential of dip a headwind would have just meant I'd have had to bowl faster. Now with an awareness of dip and knowing that I can produce fairly vicious dip in the nets indoors - I can't wait for the next day with a head-wind. I reckon too that it'll assist my Grimmett Flipper the one with the good In-swing that then spins off towards off. Even with no wind this ball is all over the shop it's difficult to tame with the anount of swing I get with it, I have to be carefull not to bowl wides. In fact it needs a lot more work because it is so unruly!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

At the impact end? It's a 300 quid camera, I suppose if I put the camera near the base of the stumps and the ball hits the stumps the camer will be alright. Maybe I'll try both ends. On a high tripod above my head looking from behind me down the wicket sounds like a better option and the ball then wont disappear out of shot as it approaches the lens and you'll see the full extent of the curve and the final spin away at the end.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;346292 said:
Yes headwind, Philpott says in his playing days he was usually more interested in the breeze than the pitch conditions!
Click to expand...


As Macca says, in fact o'reilly being a fast legspinner would bowl downwind, while grimmett would bowl into the wind/breeze. By the way today saw Tendulkar in IPL bowl fastish legspinners over 50mph. Not very flighted but all bang on middle to off to right handers. He seemed to do it quite efforlessly.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

dave i've found some old footage of me bowling the flipper and one of them has some really nice inswing so I uploaded it to youtube so you can see if its similar as I know this is swing and not drift. The thrid ball is the one with swing into a right hander(towards leg side)

YouTube - flipper_swing
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;346294 said:
As Macca says, in fact o'reilly being a fast legspinner would bowl downwind, while grimmett would bowl into the wind/breeze. By the way today saw Tendulkar in IPL bowl fastish legspinners over 50mph. Not very flighted but all bang on middle to off to right handers. He seemed to do it quite efforlessly.
Click to expand...

How fast was O'reilly - Philpott seems to have a big thing about O'reilly that he didn't really expand on in the book?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;346361 said:
What is it that I'm getting with my Flipper then? If I aim it at the middle stump it curves away towards Leg Slip, then bounces back in towards the stumps like a little Leg Break.
Click to expand...

It's probably contrast swing. I suppose it could be conventional; but that would require it to have a reasonably raised seam, and for the seam to come out at the angle for a conventional in-swinger, which seems unlikely for a flipper.

My guess is that it is probably contrast swing.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;346293 said:
Again this is one of those things that seem now to be so obvious, whereas last year not even knowing about the potential of dip a headwind would have just meant I'd have had to bowl faster. Now with an awareness of dip and knowing that I can produce fairly vicious dip in the nets indoors - I can't wait for the next day with a head-wind. I reckon too that it'll assist my Grimmett Flipper the one with the good In-swing that then spins off towards off. Even with no wind this ball is all over the shop it's difficult to tame with the anount of swing I get with it, I have to be carefull not to bowl wides. In fact it needs a lot more work because it is so unruly!
Click to expand...

It may be you are getting a lot of swing as your balls(oops sorry) are not smooth.It may you are getting reverse swing!! It would be interesting to try and see whether you get different swing with new and old balls. I rarely practice it but it seems to swing off the original line albeit not to your extent. It then bounces like a small off break. It all depends on the wrist position at release I assume. By the way is the clicking of the fingers very audible when you release the flipper?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

gundalf7;346390 said:
dave i've found some old footage of me bowling the flipper and one of them has some really nice inswing so I uploaded it to youtube so you can see if its similar as I know this is swing and not drift. The thrid ball is the one with swing into a right hander(towards leg side)

YouTube - flipper_swing
Click to expand...

The 2nd one looks really obvious, the first and 3rd versions it's difficult to see, but they're the ones that swing in the manner that mine do. How do you get it to swing different ways? Is that done by angling the seam slightly and having the shiny side on the inside of the curve direction?

I'll see what I come up with tonight if I get time and the weather holds out. At the minute it's lovely and sunny so it looks promising.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;346295 said:
How fast was O'reilly - Philpott seems to have a big thing about O'reilly that he didn't really expand on in the book?
Click to expand...

I think Macca has his speed gun loaded for this, but I assume he is in Kumble's league and probably a touch faster. Hope Macca has a book by O'Reilly as well. First the fox now the tiger. Sounding like a zoo here. Wonder what they call warnie, I presume he is nicknamed after some carnivorous predator with a predilection for poms.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;346465 said:
How do you get it to swing different ways? Is that done by angling the seam slightly and having the shiny side on the inside of the curve direction?
Click to expand...

yeah I was just angling it really slightly and it was just swinging if the seam stayed straight. I thought the 3rd was the most obvious the ball should have ended outside off and you can see if come back in. Yeah it wasn't so good in the dark but the footage is over 6 months old I just dug it up out my hardrive.

I don't really bowl the flipper as often as I did though as it makes my thumb swell up which effects my normal grip so I don't practice it regularly anymore.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

mas cambios;259447 said:
I think they will, it's getting better :laugh:. Takes time to build a forum and a steady member base but we are getting there and threads like the old leg spin one help no end.

I'm also hoping to get someone to do an interview with regards to spin bowling in the vein of what we did with Ian Pont, so hopefully that will come off in the not too distant future (Sadly, Peter Philpott may be out of the question but I will try).
Click to expand...

Sadly one year on the administrator has not come back with an interview. We should talk to our union about it.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

That's really weird to me to think that people have issues with the physical mechanics of bowling the Flipper. I can see that it has a big jarring affect on the joints and there is a weird thing that I do (rarely now) where when you're squeezing the ball out between your finger and thumb the joints twist and snap violently the wrong way and it feels as though you might have dislocated your thumb for a micro second. That's a really sickening feeling for that split second as it feels so wrong. But I've had deep internal blisters under the skin on the finger and a slightly sore joint in the thumb recently when I was bowling the Flipper inwards towards myself to get top spin - but generally it's fine. But I suppose it's a case of different size hands and fingers either assist with bowling it or maybe make it more difficult? I'd certainly stop if my joints were swelling up, I wonder if as you get older Gundalf it might be possible or not be as bad?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;346296 said:
It may be you are getting a lot of swing as your balls(oops sorry) are not smooth.It may you are getting reverse swing!! It would be interesting to try and see whether you get different swing with new and old balls. I rarely practice it but it seems to swing off the original line albeit not to your extent. It then bounces like a small off break. It all depends on the wrist position at release I assume. By the way is the clicking of the fingers very audible when you release the flipper?
Click to expand...

The clicking can be obvious, but I wouldn't have said that it happens all the time. If I was to choose to I think I could do it all the time.

With regards shiny balls, I don't really shine them and they're all in different degrees of wear and tear, but we had a coaching session last week and the coach was emphasising how important it was that everyone looked after the ball to ensure that the shiny side would be polished. Maybe it's something I should look at and play around with as well. I did think about it on the field this weekend and started to shine the balls - maybe I shoud pursue this as well? I'm not good on knowing what swing is what. But when I released the ball aiming it at the middle stump it was landing well wide of leg stump and staying in the air for ages because of the backspin. In order to get it on the stumps I was having to aim the ball wide of off stump as I released it by about 1' maybe 1.5'? Then it was coming in on the off stump and then spinning away again. Looked pretty good.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

when I first bowled it regularly it was with basically with a cross seam seamers grip which caused the problems. I bowl it slightly differently now with the thumb not as far back on the ball and my 3rd finger on the ball and the ball comes out with alot less spin on and at the moment it hasn't caused me too many problems but i'm not bowling it regularly at all.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;346299 said:
Sadly one year on the administrator has not come back with an interview. We should talk to our union about it.
Click to expand...

What was it called - Macca mentioned it with regards the naming of obscure variations? I've uploaded another ball from the weekend (Over 16 yards remember) YouTube - Someblokecalleddave Leg Break development 2

I wish I could do this over 22 yards. I'd be fulfilled and could die in peace then.....
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

La Gecko was asking questions and making some point regarding The Flipper over in a seperate thread so I've brought it over here so we can all mull over it and disperse our collective wisdom

La Gecko said 'Hey guys, I've think i've figured out how to snap my fingers in order to bowl the flipper. The problem I am having is the positioning of my wrist. I'm assuming the position is similar to the top spinner with the thumb pointing towards the batter but unlike the top spinner i don't really roll by wrist forward in a leg spin manner... but more in an off spin manner :S. Please someone help me with this I would really like to practice this

Thanks in advance '

EOW said -

Well I'm not really the person to help you with this, as I don't bowl a flipper. But I will say this: it would be impossible to bowl a flipper with the leg-break wrist action that pushes forwards; the clicking action of the fingers turns your wrist backwards.

Ah... EOW's point is not entirely true. You can bowl a Flipper with a forward facing hand (Palm facing the bat) employing the 'Round the loop' theory a la' Philpott. It's not something I do, but I have investigated it and if you bowl the flipper you'll understand that what it does in theory is produce an Off- break ball and in practice this is exactly what happens, but it's not an easy delivery. Take a step further and twist the wrist round the loop another 45 degrees and you've got a Flipper that you flick backwards as you push your arm and throw the ball forwards and this gives you a top-spinner. I've had more success with this, but it caused me some pain and the potential for injury.

In answer to La gecko's point - The Flipper comes out of the bottom of the hand and not the top, driven primarily by the thumb. I don't quite get what you're doing, but I would say you need to describe the off-spinners action in more detail?

With regards to the Flipper with the drift/swing I shot some footage from the bowlers end at the height of the stumps and it hasn't worked. The ball doesn't appear in the frame until the last few yards so any impression of it having deviated off it's initial line is lost. So it's back to the drawing board with that. I'll either have to go for the potentially camera killing stump cam approach or as I said last night from behind me and from a high viewpoint. I'd have done that but I had to use a field I wasn't happy about setting the camera up on as there loads of Chav's around.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I think EOW is right in that it wouldn't be a flipper, the ball would be an off break if he tried the flipper with a leg break action, if you try it with an offspinners action it tends towards that topspinning mystery ball of Grimmetts .I think la Gecko needs to explain it a bit better. He may be bowling the topspinning "flipper" ,Dave?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top