Wrist Spin Bowling

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I play guitar a bit and you need the tips of your fingers to be tough and hard, I used to drag my fingers across anything that was hard and abrasive in order to toughen up the skin so that makes sense. It's the same when I was a surfer, walking across rocks, sand, roads, grass all summer in bare feet, the bottoms of my feet were like leather. I remember when I came back to the smoke in the winter, the first few baths in hot water and I must have lost about 1/4" of skin off my feet. But when I was there I could walk across gravel and run across rocks. The harder you wear your skin the tougher it gets.

 

[La Gecko]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I think you need to get the book that we all refer to as the bible on here... Peter Philpotts 'The Art of Wrist Spinning' I've got it here behind me. In it Philpott explains by rotating your wrist around in different directions and releasing the ball in any of these wrist positions it's going to impart spin in different directions. So if you start to think about your Leg Break being the starting point the ball is normally released with the palm of the hand facing the bat and the wrist flicked anti-clockwise on release. This puts side spin on it so the ball comes out of your hand with the seam rotating at 90 degrees to the direction of travel spinning anti-clockwise.

So if you twist your wrist round now so that your thumb is facing the bat Legspin bowling: The Top Spinner the ball comes out with over-spin which is your top-spinner. So somewhere between the 2 you have a mixture of over-spin and side-spin. This gives you a smaller leg break with some dip.

Yes, I understand all that I've been taught well . But I believe he is misunderstanding the position of my wrist or my action if he assumes it is an offie.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I play guitar a bit and you need the tips of your fingers to be tough and hard, I used to drag my fingers across anything that was hard and abrasive in order to toughen up the skin so that makes sense. It's the same when I was a surfer, walking across rocks, sand, roads, grass all summer in bare feet, the bottoms of my feet were like leather. I remember when I came back to the smoke in the winter, the first few baths in hot water and I must have lost about 1/4" of skin off my feet. But when I was there I could walk across gravel and run across rocks. The harder you wear your skin the tougher it gets.

Hey dude I'm into surfin' and pickin', I play the dobro.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Alright, I'll keep practicing with tennis balls. Just would like to clarify when you release the ball your hand is facing away from you like the top spinner, and the wrist doesn't rotate too much, if anything a small degree backwards in the manner of an offie?

The back of the hand faces you as the arm reaches it's highest point and your thumb would be pointing at the bat as with the Top Spinner see this - Legspin bowling: The Flipper

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Hey dude I'm into surfin' and pickin', I play the dobro.

Guitar playing you're several thousand leagues in front of me Macca! I'd never even heard of a Dobro and had to look it up! Is it a Gibson Dobro?

Surfing though, I'm better at that than I am at Guitar playing! How far from the coast are you? I seem to remember you saying that you were near Dee Why or was that Peter Philpott or someone else? You a long boarder or a short board rider?

Sorry this is going off topic! I keep having internet issues as well and keep having to turn off and on again.

have a look at this - click on the local photo's link http://magicseaweed.com/Sennen-Gwenvor-Surf-Report/4/ this is where I go every year, but I spent to whole summers back in the 80's with a bunch of Aussies getting pretty good at it. One of them was from Dee Why.

Ignore that link you're probably better off looking for Sennen or Gwenva using wannasurf.com if you're so inclined. You goofy or regular?

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

That is right , it is the batsman that will tell you if you are getting drop, it is often something more experienced than seen , but even after one ball the good batsman will notice the drop and take it into account. But as Grimmett points out in his books the batsman will find it hard visually detecting the drop in flight as it is hard to determine the trajectory of an object heading straight towards you. A stiff breeze is more important than anything for your drop apart from how fast you can overspin the ball.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

short board, regular I am about half an hours drive from the beach. I mainly fish the beach these days. I play a Beard Dobro made in USA. Great intruments.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yes, I understand all that I've been taught well . But I believe he is misunderstanding the position of my wrist or my action if he assumes it is an offie.

What I mean is whereas right hand leggies have a legbreak as a stock delivery, if you are a china man your stock ball would be an offspinner in the sense it spins from off to leg. Your wrong one should spin from leg to off. By the way if you have been coached please pass on any advice as we are all very willing to learn here.

 

[La Gecko]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Hey guys,

I'm a Chinaman bowler and am able to bowl my leg spin and wrong'un quite well. I would just like some ideas on another variation to practice. I am not overly keen on the top spinner, and the flipper (or the manner i am doing it in) seems to do damage my thumb and middle finger, as such i don't wish to bowl that delivery. Please any ideas would be great, except for the slider which I seem unable to bowl as it just comes out as a massive leg break.

Thanks in advance

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yes, I understand all that I've been taught well . But I believe he is misunderstanding the position of my wrist or my action if he assumes it is an offie.

Yeah I see what you mean. I looks like Saddo's written something there a bit A**e about face?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Hey guys,

I'm a Chinaman bowler and am able to bowl my leg spin and wrong'un quite well. I would just like some ideas on another variation to practice. I am not overly keen on the top spinner, and the flipper (or the manner i am doing it in) seems to do damage my thumb and middle finger, as such i don't wish to bowl that delivery. Please any ideas would be great, except for the slider which I seem unable to bowl as it just comes out as a massive leg break.

Thanks in advance

Poor you with your massive Leg Break! (I'm just jealous). Anyway before you write off the flipper are you aware of the Clarrie Grimmett version? Have a look at my vid here - YouTube - Clarrie Grimmett Flipper Wrist spin bowling A

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

That is right , it is the batsman that will tell you if you are getting drop, it is often something more experienced than seen , but even after one ball the good batsman will notice the drop and take it into account. But as Grimmett points out in his books the batsman will find it hard visually detecting the drop in flight as it is hard to determine the trajectory of an object heading straight towards you. A stiff breeze is more important than anything for your drop apart from how fast you can overspin the ball.

That's interesting. Are we talking a headwind here as the optimum assistance in wind?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Other than that you're stuffed and the only option is to start looking at finger spin variations, baseball pitches/grips and start inventing new ones. But if you start to invent new ones it's going to take some time (Try 14 years as in the case of Grimmet and the Flipper). I'd work on your Top Spinner. Does your Leg Break dip well?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

What I mean is whereas right hand leggies have a legbreak as a stock delivery, if you are a china man your stock ball would be an offspinner in the sense it spins from off to leg. Your wrong one should spin from leg to off. By the way if you have been coached please pass on any advice as we are all very willing to learn here.

Ah see it all makes sense in the end we/I'm getting my China men all round my neck!

 

[La Gecko]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeh I saw your vid before. It's what let me figure out the flipper to begin with . But yeh I've head it isn't great for kids (I'm 15) and I can tell you now it seems to be true for me.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

That's interesting. Are we talking a headwind here as the optimum assistance in wind?

Yes headwind, Philpott says in his playing days he was usually more interested in the breeze than the pitch conditions!

 

[La Gecko]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Other than that you're stuffed and the only option is to start looking at finger spin variations, baseball pitches/grips and start inventing new ones. But if you start to invent new ones it's going to take some time (Try 14 years as in the case of Grimmet and the Flipper). I'd work on your Top Spinner. Does your Leg Break dip well?

Haha alright I'll be back in 14 years...
I honestly have no idea if I'm getting any dip. I'll ask my mates dad who was umpiring on sunday . I think at the moment with no variations to really work on, I'll just focus on my variation of pace.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yes headwind, Philpott says in his playing days he was usually more interested in the breeze than the pitch conditions!

Again this is one of those things that seem now to be so obvious, whereas last year not even knowing about the potential of dip a headwind would have just meant I'd have had to bowl faster. Now with an awareness of dip and knowing that I can produce fairly vicious dip in the nets indoors - I can't wait for the next day with a head-wind. I reckon too that it'll assist my Grimmett Flipper the one with the good In-swing that then spins off towards off. Even with no wind this ball is all over the shop it's difficult to tame with the anount of swing I get with it, I have to be carefull not to bowl wides. In fact it needs a lot more work because it is so unruly!

 

[The Edge Of Willow]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I honestly have no idea if I'm getting any dip.

The thing that makes the ball dip is over-spin. What kind of leg-break do you bowl? One that is totally side-spun or one that has some over-spin on it?

If you bowl a leg break with a decent amount of over-spin, say the seam at 45 degrees when you release(90 degrees being the total side-spinner, where the seam points towards the sides of the pitch, and 0 degrees being the one where the seam points towards the batsmen(the top-spinner), you will almost certainly be getting dip.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yes headwind, Philpott says in his playing days he was usually more interested in the breeze than the pitch conditions!

As Macca says, in fact o'reilly being a fast legspinner would bowl downwind, while grimmett would bowl into the wind/breeze. By the way today saw Tendulkar in IPL bowl fastish legspinners over 50mph. Not very flighted but all bang on middle to off to right handers. He seemed to do it quite efforlessly.

 

[La Gecko]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

As I stated above I get a lot of rip from bowling the bowl back towards me i.e. the slider. Because of this i bowl my stock leggy similar to this, with my thumb turned towards me about 45 degrees from the normal side spinning leg break

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

As Macca says, in fact o'reilly being a fast legspinner would bowl downwind, while grimmett would bowl into the wind/breeze. By the way today saw Tendulkar in IPL bowl fastish legspinners over 50mph. Not very flighted but all bang on middle to off to right handers. He seemed to do it quite efforlessly.

How fast was O'reilly - Philpott seems to have a big thing about O'reilly that he didn't really expand on in the book?

 

[The Edge Of Willow]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Sounds like you're bowling a total or almost total side-spinner then. There probably isn't really any dip then; but I would still ask someone who as seen you bowl just to be sure.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Again this is one of those things that seem now to be so obvious, whereas last year not even knowing about the potential of dip a headwind would have just meant I'd have had to bowl faster. Now with an awareness of dip and knowing that I can produce fairly vicious dip in the nets indoors - I can't wait for the next day with a head-wind. I reckon too that it'll assist my Grimmett Flipper the one with the good In-swing that then spins off towards off. Even with no wind this ball is all over the shop it's difficult to tame with the anount of swing I get with it, I have to be carefull not to bowl wides. In fact it needs a lot more work because it is so unruly!

It may be you are getting a lot of swing as your balls(oops sorry) are not smooth.It may you are getting reverse swing!! It would be interesting to try and see whether you get different swing with new and old balls. I rarely practice it but it seems to swing off the original line albeit not to your extent. It then bounces like a small off break. It all depends on the wrist position at release I assume. By the way is the clicking of the fingers very audible when you release the flipper?

 

[La Gecko]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Alright mate thanks. Any ideas on a good variation to work on.

By The Way has anyone come up with their own unique variation? like the gipper

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

How fast was O'reilly - Philpott seems to have a big thing about O'reilly that he didn't really expand on in the book?

I think Macca has his speed gun loaded for this, but I assume he is in Kumble's league and probably a touch faster. Hope Macca has a book by O'Reilly as well. First the fox now the tiger. Sounding like a zoo here. Wonder what they call warnie, I presume he is nicknamed after some carnivorous predator with a predilection for poms.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Alright mate thanks. Any ideas on a good variation to work on.

By The Way has anyone come up with their own unique variation? like the gipper

I use a grip for all my deliveries (makes me sound like a midwife), that only includes the thumb, index finger and middle finger, like in Gundalf's avatar. On and off have experimented with the Iverson grip as per my avatar. With the thumb pointing to point you get a very small leg break or sometimes a straight one(similar to warne's not jenners slider, except for the variation of not using the ring finger). When I point the thumb towards square leg sometimes I get a good googly. But I rarely have time to practice so as usual accuracy is not great, especially as I do not have the patience to practice them over increasing distances and I plunge straight to the 22 yards.

I am glad you bowl left arm wrist spin at least we have found someone stranger/more mysterious than us. Keep on working on your big sidespinner( i do not think it is a legspinner, rather an offspinner), or else the demons of the googly syndrome( in your case the legspinner syndrome) will set in. This is becoming confusing. Oh and look at the you tube video with Beau Casson that dave had posted, he together with Katich and Hogg are the only chinamen I have seen.

Also if you mastered the offbreak, the topspinner should be easy for you, well it is for me and Dave,actually we are masters at it,we even deceive ourselves when we bowl a leg break and get a toppie... sheer class.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I think they will, it's getting better :laugh:. Takes time to build a forum and a steady member base but we are getting there and threads like the old leg spin one help no end.

I'm also hoping to get someone to do an interview with regards to spin bowling in the vein of what we did with Ian Pont, so hopefully that will come off in the not too distant future (Sadly, Peter Philpott may be out of the question but I will try).

Sadly one year on the administrator has not come back with an interview. We should talk to our union about it.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Saddo it's just practice. Yeah 90 hour weeks are not going to help either. I bowled poorly today, kind of 2 steps backwards from yesterday. I started out fine but then as the hour went on it slowly went to pieces. I think I need to take a note book with me and write stuff down about what feels right and what works. I can't believe your commitment to this when you're not in a team, you must be totally obsessed to do this after 90 hours of work.

About the note book piece it is true, I feel I would have done something that I must remember to do in my next session, but forget what it is in the next. At least you can write it in your blog to act as an aide memoir.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

It may be you are getting a lot of swing as your balls(oops sorry) are not smooth.It may you are getting reverse swing!! It would be interesting to try and see whether you get different swing with new and old balls. I rarely practice it but it seems to swing off the original line albeit not to your extent. It then bounces like a small off break. It all depends on the wrist position at release I assume. By the way is the clicking of the fingers very audible when you release the flipper?

The clicking can be obvious, but I wouldn't have said that it happens all the time. If I was to choose to I think I could do it all the time.

With regards shiny balls, I don't really shine them and they're all in different degrees of wear and tear, but we had a coaching session last week and the coach was emphasising how important it was that everyone looked after the ball to ensure that the shiny side would be polished. Maybe it's something I should look at and play around with as well. I did think about it on the field this weekend and started to shine the balls - maybe I shoud pursue this as well? I'm not good on knowing what swing is what. But when I released the ball aiming it at the middle stump it was landing well wide of leg stump and staying in the air for ages because of the backspin. In order to get it on the stumps I was having to aim the ball wide of off stump as I released it by about 1' maybe 1.5'? Then it was coming in on the off stump and then spinning away again. Looked pretty good.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Saddo , I think the backspinner, the one Jenner calls the slider, is one delivery where you may need to take your thumb off the ball and get it out of the way a bit.

Unfortunately i feel the ball slips out of my hand when I do not use my thumb Macca. My fingers unfortunately are not so large. It is ok hand to hand or backwards towards me, but hopeless over a distance, and I do not have so much time to go over the increasing distance drill unfortunately.


As regards the slider a la jenner, it still remains a pie in the sky. It looks so simple and smooth when he does it( the slider I mean), but i feel that i chuck when i try it. I hope it does not sound like porn to you, i mean with the does it and chuck it and slider you know, some young adults follow us here.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Sadly one year on the administrator has not come back with an interview. We should talk to our union about it.

What was it called - Macca mentioned it with regards the naming of obscure variations? I've uploaded another ball from the weekend (Over 16 yards remember) YouTube - Someblokecalleddave Leg Break development 2

I wish I could do this over 22 yards. I'd be fulfilled and could die in peace then.....

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

It is hard for the bowler to tell if he is getting drop from his overspin and it is hard for the batsman, you need to be slightly to the side of the line of the ball to see the drop, and bowling into a headwind is the best conditions to get it.
Drift is a lot easier to detect from either end, and La Gecko should be getting a bit of that. In fact a big sidespinner will float on and drift rather than drop.
Somewhere between La Geckos big legbreak and wrongun must be a topspinner. It sounds like his "slider" is not coming out with the seam set correctly. The backspinning topspinner as Philpott describes it is a difficult ball to master. I like to demonstrate it by not always rotating the wrist 90 degrees, but my moving the body 90 degrees and showing it is still the same wrist action as the legbreak.
Probably the simplest variation is one a lot of kids come up with themselves , where they say " I know what I will do, I will come in and pretend to bowl a legbreak but at the last second I will release a seamer" You can work this delivery up into a very usefull slider.
If I was La Gecko I wouldn't give up on the flipper, just put in a bit of time practising the flipper action with different types and sizes of balls and give it plenty of time to come along.

 

[The Edge Of Willow]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

It may you are getting reverse swing

I highly doubt that. Leg spinners don't bowl fast enough to get reverse swing.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Haha alright I'll be back in 14 years...
I honestly have no idea if I'm getting any dip. I'll ask my mates dad who was umpiring on sunday . I think at the moment with no variations to really work on, I'll just focus on my variation of pace.

I know Macca answered this to some extent and I've not read it in full, but he comes from a position of good/solid knowledge as he's currently training his son, so have a look at his comment too. But the people that tell me whether I'm getting dip are the batsmen - but I ask them when we're practicing. Mix up different deliveries - if you bowl your leg break with more over-spin sometimes - bowl a sequence of 4 or five of your 'Normal Leg Breaks' and then chuck one down with as much over-spin as you can get on it and see if you can make it dip. Then ask the bat if he looks surprised what happened, hopefully he'll say it dipped. If he's uncertain say to him did it drop shorter than you was expecting?

 

[La Gecko]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

What I mean is whereas right hand leggies have a legbreak as a stock delivery, if you are a china man your stock ball would be an offspinner in the sense it spins from off to leg. Your wrong one should spin from leg to off. By the way if you have been coached please pass on any advice as we are all very willing to learn here.

I have been in a selected spin clinic a couple of times and was taught by Graham House and on one occasion Terry Jenner. To be honest I didn't like Terry too much but Graham was great. One of the best things I've learnt from him is the use the body at the crease, ensuring you turn with the deliver getting your front leg high through the rotation.

 

[La Gecko]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Keep on working on your big sidespinner( i do not think it is a legspinner, rather an offspinner)

Not sure what you mean here... It is definitely a leg spinner

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Jenner can be a bit direct, gruff almost, but not completely humourless.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I reckon at 15 you might be okay with the Flipper too, but yeah it's probably going to get sore if you put a lot of time into, do as Macca suggested use tennis balls and others. Rubber balls the size of tennis balls with a bit of weight are best as they spin back in an amazing way that is really encouraging and you can do it standing still shove the ball forward with the Flipper click and it'll still come back to you even though it's gone forward 4 or 5 feet. If they doesn't make you realise the potential of this amazing variation I'd be surprised.

 

[La Gecko]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeh, I suppose, I found him a bit arrogant.