Wrist Spin Bowling

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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;343138 said:
Macca as eow said the grip is different for seam up, but if this has worked over the ages experience is better than logic
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Yes bowl a " seamer " with a legspinner grip. and actually kids with no coaching sometimes hold the ball with all their fingers and spin off their fourth finger and this can be helping to cause the wrongun as their natural delivery.
As far as swing v drift I am going to read Grimmett again because I found it confusing how much he talks swing, as well as drift and differentiates the two. Perhaps he is only talking of backspinners, and I dont think they knew the science of swing as well back then, although there are diagrams illustrating the effect of turbulence on a moving ball.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I loved the Bradman quote 'The weeks consisted of Saturday and then all the other days just led up to it'. That's kind of how I am with my bowling! I can't wait till Saturday and the start of 2 weeks off. I reckon what with this new realisation relating to the 3rd finger and the expectancy of blisters I might be on to something - Wrist Spin Bowling: Finger Blisters
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Cheers I might try and get my head round it! With regards to my new Grimmet Flipper, I'm not 100% what way it turn because I was just amazed at it's flight through the sky, but it certainly was more off-spin than leg spin which is the opposite of my conventional flipper as that spins like a leg break. Why that is so I haven't got a clue? But if it does and this is a consistent aspect of what it does that's a valuable asset as that means I've got a Flipper that goes both ways! So if I bowl it again over the next few days and it is consistently spinning away toward the Leg Slip that suggests that it's side ways spin rather than a seam up back spin? In which case are we all agreeing that means it's drift rather than swing?

With regard the condition of the balls, they're all in reasonable condition evenly worn with both sides evenly shiny.

Yeah this new Flipper which I'm calling my Grimmett Flipper uses all four fingers and makes a big loud click as it comes out of the hand. I'm going to look for the video I did on Saturday and upload it to you tube. Give me an hour or so and I'll post up a link. I'll also add it to my new blog once I get a photo of the Grimmett Flipper grip. I've noticed that blogs not getting that many hits. I wonder if that's got something to do with the spelling of Legspin as opposed to Leg-spin?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I've got nets tomorrow night for 2 hours. I'm scheduled to bat for 20 minutes first, I'll just try and defend the wicket and not get bowled out I reckon. As for my bowling having just read a section in the book on top spinners and dip combined with the use of Flippers (Peter Philpott - The art of wrist spin bowling). I reckon I may have a go at this and see how they deal with me mixing these two up. I think that may be a good strategy as I'm still bowling the Leg Break over a shorter distance trying to get the hang of it. I just feel if I try and go long too soon I'll end up bowling wrong uns as always. If I bowl Top spinners usually they tend to go towards leg like Wrong Uns as well, so it might be helpful to try and correct this feature of my Toppie while I'm mixing them up with the Flipper. What's currently exciting me is the idea of dip, I read somewhere that if you're trying to produce dip you can put a piece of string up and get the ball over it but then land it short of the wicket to test your 'dipability'. Again this is one of those more complex aspects that I've over-looked with regards to my own bowling but recognise it in the bowling of others. So it'll be good to produce it in my own bowling and I'm quite optimistic about being able to do it.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

That website looks like it covers lots about swing sadspinner. I am going to have a bit of a look, but they lose me when it gets too scientific.

I was watching my son play indoor cricket tonight and he was getting drift with his legspinners and the faster bowlers were getting lots of swing. I would say my sons' topspinners were the most difficult balls of any to face, the standard of batsmanship was high with most of the kids being first graders with a sprinkling of rep players, but most of them I'm sure haven't come up against many topspinners and they just could not get to the pitch of them and he had them half-cocked with the ball getting more bounce than any other type of bowling on offer. He got wickets, he had catches missed off his bowling, lots of dot balls.

We got the advice to bowl mainly topspinners from a mate of mine that was in the NSW indoor cricket train-on sqad a few years ago. I never got into indoor cricket but I found a good thread elsewhere on this site with some good tips. I also got some pointers from some older players whilst my son was playing. I wish this indoor game was around when I was a kid.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

A good way to overcome wrongun syndrome in kids, especially kids that learn the wrongun before the legbreak, which a lot of kids do without coaching, is to simply try and get them to bowl a seamer and the first ball that comes out is often a legbreak or a topspinner.
Some coaches find this by accident when they are purposely trying to turn a wrist spinner into a seamer because the wronguns they are bowling are so wildly inaccurate and unfortunately some coaches keep coaching them seam and we lose another legspinner to the game. But some coaches use this trick on purpose to coach out the wrongun. It's along the same lines as EOW when he talks of attaining his topspinner by thinking of reaching for a wrongun.
A tip from Grimmett to disguise your wrongun is to let it go before your hand reaches it's normal delivery point. Most do this naturally but it's worth checking.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;343090 said:
I dont know about that, there's lots for cricketers to learn from baseball.
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There's also lots cricketers shouldn't learn. For instance, in baseball, it's often seen as the pitcher's (~=bowler's) job to get the batsman out. In cricket, that's not the case. the bowler isn't supposed to bowl a batsman every delivery. He's often playing the ball to his fielders, right?

Anyway, my two cents.

And Edge of Willow, as for "And welcome to Big Cricket and the wrist spin thread," - thanks. This is my only access to the cricket world, since I get no coverage over here... -_-
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

That's almost how I corrected my wrong un. Just by making a concious effort to bowl straight with the wrist and the palm of the hand facing the batsman, the emphasis then of then leaving the 3rd finger on the ball till the last moment then puts just a bit of spin on it to turn it into my small leg break, it's just that there's no flick there that then makes it turn big. But it's not a wrong un and that for me was what mattered.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Macca how old's your son? Yeah the top spinner - lovely ball served me well last night in the nets and again I've got to say I've been so wrapped up with accuracy, line and length that I've never even considered Dip and drift/swing as an aspect of my bowling but over the last few days for the first time ever I'm recognising it's something that I'm able to do.

Cotton eyed joe, yep you're right. You're not always intending to bowl straight onto the stumps with the intention of hitting the stumps. The Top Spinner for instance although bowled directly at the stumps would if left bounce over the top of the stumps, the top spinner might as I did last night be mixed with other variations - the flipper for instance or even a straight ball without much top spin that would then go onto the stumps. Aimed at the stumps threatening to hit them, the batsman has to play the ball and it's most likely outcome is that the big bounce catches the top of the bat or the gloves and is caught by the wicket keeper or slips fileders.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

How do you mean bowl a seamer macca. This is backspin when so bowled compared to top or side spin, or do you mean that their mind is thinking they are bowling a seamer while their wrist is in a different position that their brain thinks. Sorry for being complicated.
When you release the ball are you still with the side on position or do you release once you have partially or completely pivoted to front on? I know eow tried to explain before but it is still a black hole for me. What i mean by experimenting in these two postions , if i release the ball when side on the seam points to first slip, if i release when i have turned further the seam points to gully/point. Can you take a ball in your hands and do this while standing up just simulating the release first when side on then when frontish on and tell me what your conclusions are please. Sorry I am hopless at explaining.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;343171 said:
Cheers I might try and get my head round it! With regards to my new Grimmet Flipper, I'm not 100% what way it turn because I was just amazed at it's flight through the sky, but it certainly was more off-spin than leg spin which is the opposite of my conventional flipper as that spins like a leg break. Why that is so I haven't got a clue? But if it does and this is a consistent aspect of what it does that's a valuable asset as that means I've got a Flipper that goes both ways! So if I bowl it again over the next few days and it is consistently spinning away toward the Leg Slip that suggests that it's side ways spin rather than a seam up back spin? In which case are we all agreeing that means it's drift rather than swing?

With regard the condition of the balls, they're all in reasonable condition evenly worn with both sides evenly shiny.
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I was actually more wanted to know which way it moved in the air, as it may tell us if it was swing or drift. Since the ball was a back-spinning off-break, it would drift away from the right-hander, so if the ball moved into the right-hander in the air it wouldn't be drift. If it moved away from the right-hander in the air it could be either, as the seam position for back-spinning off-break(assuming you don't bowl it with a scrambled seam) is the similar to an out-swinger(conventional swing).
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I'm not that sure yet whether it consistently spun away like an offspinner. I'll be trying it over the next few days and I'll let you know. But with regards the drift/spin.... I was bowling it at RH bats coming round the wicket wide of off stump, the ball then swung/drifted into the batsman, so from your description in sounds like you'd have it described as swing?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The Edge Of Willow;342761 said:
Okay sadspinner, I found a video with a nice shot of Warne bowling taken from the stump cam. It is quite blury as Warne is in the middle of his action, but it should be good enough to make judgement about when the release point is.YouTube - Shane Warne 1st Ashes Test 1993

The shot in question is at 2:50 in the video.
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I love the look that Gooch gives Warne around the 54 second mark. One of utter resignation to his fate. I suppose it's also bordering on a look of disgust.

As for the dismissal at the 2.50 mark, it was partly down to Smith playing with 'soft hands' but also due to the sheer amount of revs on the ball - amazing really.

Look at the drift he gets on the next ball at around 3.00 - I wouldn't know where to begin trying to play that.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;343182 said:
I'm not that sure yet whether it consistently spun away like an offspinner. I'll be trying it over the next few days and I'll let you know. But with regards the drift/spin.... I was bowling it at RH bats coming round the wicket wide of off stump, the ball then swung/drifted into the batsman, so from your description in sounds like you'd have it described as swing?
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Yes, it does sound like swing, to achieve drift into a right-hander you would have to bowl a back-spinning leg-break.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The Edge Of Willow;342761 said:
Okay sadspinner, I found a video with a nice shot of Warne bowling taken from the stump cam. It is quite blury as Warne is in the middle of his action, but it should be good enough to make judgement about when the release point is.YouTube - Shane Warne 1st Ashes Test 1993

The shot in question is at 2:50 in the video.
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It looks clearer I reckon from behind and it looks at the point of vertical, why what's the question - I seemed to have missed out on this discussion?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;342766 said:
It looks clearer I reckon from behind and it looks at the point of vertical, why what's the question - I seemed to have missed out on this discussion?
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Sadspinner can't work out at what point of the pivot to release at. That's why I picked the stump cam shot; it shows what direction the body is facing at release.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I had a bit of a nightmare with the book, it sounded like a shop run by a little old lady and she kept screwing up the card numbers and no matter what happened she couldn't get the clearance on the card payment, so I've got to send a cheque now, which I've still not done - but the one I've ordered is Taking wickets. I tried also to get hold of a copy of Philpotts 'Spinner yarn' off a bloke in Australia, but he's emailed me back saying none in stock but he'll let me know when he's got one.

In reply to Saddo the cricket guru website doesn't seem to recognise my email address or something and it just bounces back, but the site doesn't look like it's being run/maintaied?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;342772 said:
Would this help him at all do you think? Turn the sound off though as I don't think the sound track is a good idea anymore!!! YouTube - Someblokecalleddave front slow motion
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That is exactly the kind of shot that I was looking for. It should give a good idea, even though your action back then looks far from ideal(it looks like you follow through goes too round to far, although it is somewhat hard to judge as I am unsure what angle the video is taken at.).
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The better book if you can get it is " Grimmett On Cricket" and in that plate 12, 13 and 24, plus his writing says what we call a flipper wasn't his preferred way of delivering his "mystery ball" but rather he liked to bowl it the other way up as the topspinner! He says this way it makes more pace off the wicket after pitching, whereas he reckons the flipper loses pace in comparison. You would think it would be easier for the batsman to pick but perhaps by then it was too late for him to do much.
I could email some scans of the photos and text if you want.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah you're right it's one of the things I've got to work on, but never mind that we need to Hail Macca for bringing to the fore the Clarrie Grimmett Flipper normally over-looked but cos of Macca I've been looking at it and tonight out on the field I've been bowling it and it is stupendous - absolute marvellous! Why - because man it drifts like banana - it's amazing! And on top of that I can bowl it very accurately. I can't wait for nets tonight!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Cheers Macca I've got the pictures and the text. All that's done is opened a can of worms! His wrong wrong un does sound exactly like my Gipper even down to the point where he says that it's slow off the pitch and points out that if used regularly any batsman of reasonable skill would soon be able to deal with it.

On another subject speed/dip and Warne. We had a speed gun in the nets on Thursday and my contemporary a bloke called the wizard who I think bowls faster than me was measured at 35mph bowling Leg Breaks. Some of our fast bowlers were getting up to 65mph. But I was remembering the fact that Warne bowled his leg breaks in the 50 - 55mph speed zone didn't he and they dipped short of the stumps - that just seems inconceivable or would his dipping deliveries have been slower?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;342943 said:
Naughty dave, it swings not drifts. Remember we want to impress Mr philpott if he is reading our site.
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Doh! I thought it was the other way around - you're going to have to explain this to me or is it just because the seam is vertical moving through the air rather than perpendicular/side ways to the forward motion? I'm going to have to consult the bible! But that aside yes it worked and I've had an excellent session in the nets tonight with Top spinners that dipped and Grimmett Flippers that bent through the air like bananas causing all sorts of problems.

Additionally they spun away from their obvious trajectory like and offspin ball - which then suggests some diagonal spin?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The slowest I can remember Warne bowling as measured by the speed gun was the high 70's in kilometres per hour, so that range sounds about right.

I'm not sure what effect the speed of a delivery has on actual dip. The delivery will tend to be flatter, so it will dip form a lower height, but I'm not sure how actual movement that is caused by the over-spin is effected.

In my experience it doesn't seem to be much different; of course I don't bowl any where near 50 mph(at least I'm pretty sure I don't ), but the quicker balls that I've bowled have dipped quite well. And you've got to remember Warne put a lot of revs on the ball, and was stronger, so he would be able to bowl a quicker ball in a higher arc than we would.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;342943 said:
Naughty dave, it swings not drifts. Remember we want to impress Mr philpott if he is reading our site.
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I think Dave was right the first time. Swing is when the ball moves thanks to the motion of the air over the rough side with respect to its motion over the shiny side. Drift is due to the spin of the ball. Fast bowlers swing; spin bowlers drift.

... I think... but don't listen to me, I'm American. :eek:
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

yeah you'll find club spinners are alot slower than the pro's and most professionals are bowling it quicker than ever now. I doubt the speed gun in the nets would be as accurate as the ones they use in the international game. You'll probablly find it maybe 5mph slower(maybe more) than the international ones as the ones in the nets generally measure the speed in the air whereas the pro ones measure from the hand. One of our county pros at uni moaned about this last year when we had a go with a speed gun as it was measuring him 10mph slower than what he bowls when measured for the county, though it may just be the speed gun, calibration etc.

I've been working on upping my speed a little lately just through a more flowing action and better follow through and i'd say i've added a few mph or so without compromising my flight.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Cotton Eye Joe;342982 said:
I think Dave was right the first time. Swing is when the ball moves thanks to the motion of the air over the rough side with respect to its motion over the shiny side. Drift is due to the spin of the ball. Fast bowlers swing; spin bowlers drift.

... I think... but don't listen to me, I'm American. :eek:
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Well if the spin bowler gets the seam in a position where the ball will swing they can. The flipper is one of the balls that can do so because it is often bowled with an upright seam, and since it is a flipper, back-spin.

Whether Dave's ball was swinging or drifting we can't really tell because we don't have enough information. He did say that it had some side-spin as well as back-spin, so that opens the possibility that it was drift. But it also could have been swing. We'd need to know the condition of the ball, where the seam was facing, and which way the ball moved.

And welcome to Big Cricket and the wrist spin thread.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;343336 said:
Cheers Macca I've got the pictures and the text. All that's done is opened a can of worms!
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Exactly, Its kind of like a full circle for me , because when Warne started bowling his flippers and everyone who didn't know how to bowl one was trying to work it out, I remembered the Grimmett book and how my oldest brother, who is 13 years older than me and became an offspinner ( dad never forgave him!), used to bowl that ball on plate 14 as part of his bag of tricks as an offspinner, and he copied it from the book.

I can't get " Art of Wristspin" from my local library anymore, but doesn't Philpott talk about some of that stuff, and talk about some oldendays offspinners that used their thumb as the spinning "finger".

Years after seeing the great English underarm bowler Simpson Hayward bowl in New Zealand, and having worked out the " flipper", Grimmett figured Hayward was using this same method, and accounted for the English bowlers incredible spin. So maybe the flipper is , God forgive me for saying this, a pommy invention after all! rather than by a Kiwi living in Oz.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;342745 said:
How do you mean bowl a seamer macca. This is backspin when so bowled compared to top or side spin, or do you mean that their mind is thinking they are bowling a seamer while their wrist is in a different position that their brain thinks.
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I am not sure how it works sadspinner, it's just a "circuit-breaker" I have seen work on young players maybe 10 years or younger to stop them being a wrongun bowler every ball, and try and get them to bowl legbreaks. But it has to be backed up by constant coaching to stop them slipping back into their old ways, it's not a miracle cure that fixes the problem. They shouldn't need a wrongun for a few years, but then comes the problem of teaching them how to bowl it again, and that can be hard, but at least you can remind them that at one stage they could bowl one.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Macca or Dave do you think you could upload the plates by grimmett on this site and eventually on the leg spin site for public consumption.

Besides the clicking action for the flipper, do you use your wrist to add back spin.I can do it over a short distance, but over the full 22yards am bowling it too full and outside off stump, and suspect i might be throwing it/straightening the arm a bit to get some power.

Oh and dave thank you for the you tube video on the flipper. You get very good baqckspin there without much effort.
 
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