Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

legspinenthusiast;387900 said:
I have not read Philpotts book but that is on top of my list. All my knowledge or lack of it is due to this forum and the videos that I watch. I do this spinning the ball back into me all the time. It is really hard to keep the seam upright and not wobble. On a repetition of ten I can get it 7 to 8 times.


I want to develop the slider as it is a hard ball for the batsman to pick from the hand and has the same line (I bowl middle and leg stump line). I will start practice from the 1st week of March and will try to learn it the way Terry Jenner talks about in the 5 spin variations. Does any one bowl this on a consistent basis? Do I need to strengthen any part of the arm? I can do it during the next few weeks as there is 3 feet of snow on ground.

Are you in Canada?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

to understand why the "big leg break" needs backspin you have to get your head around the physics of the ball. this is easy to do with a tennis ball in your living room to see the results. the physics all comes down to vectors. if you dont know what they are then its kinda hard to explain lol. but il try anyway.

basically you have to break the motion down into 2 directions. you have forward motion and sideways motion. the forward motion is you bowling the ball forwards. the sideways motion is generated by the spinning ball when it grip the pitch upon landing. the "resultant" is a combination of both of these opposing motions.

if you bowl with a small amount of sidespin (fig 1) then the ball will deviate a small amount off the pitch, but mostly continue its forward motion. add more sidespin (fig 2) and you get more sideways deviation, and also a bigger loss of forward motion. add backspin (fig 3) and sidespin together and then you generate even more sideways movement because it is more opposed to the forward motion. the key is that the ball has to lose forward motion in order to generate sideways motion. then ive shown the backspun slider in fig 4, and as you can see this just slows down off the pitch, but the slowing motion also results in a sharp "up and down" bounce.
legspinvectors.jpg


hopefully that makes some sense?

as for the directions of spin, ive drawn another bad diagram in paint showing the balls, the seam angles, and the direction of rotation.
legspin.jpg



ive not got any videos of backspun leg breaks, only of 90 degree leg breaks. i do however have a video of the backspun slider, which i could bowl fairly consistently at the end of last season. my attempts so far this season have been highly inaccurate, but il get it back in the next few weeks i expect once i start practicing it. it took me ages to get it the first time around. the wrist isnt supposed to go where it needs to, so often youll end up bowling giant turning leg breaks that stay low, which is no bad side effect lol.
YouTube - Wrist Spin Slider
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Spiderlounge;387888 said:
At last I've got round to editing and uploading the video of my bowling from this morning. (Apologies if the quality's not great)

doesnt look too bad. the first thing id look at is your follow through though. once the ball leaves your hand most of the action comes to a stop. the first major breakthrough i made in my bowling last year was when i carried the energy all the way through. Warne describes it as "exploding through the crease". basically you should be at maximum energy as the ball leaves your hand, and the result of that is that you have to continue your follow through. at present you expend maximum energy into your delivery stride, and the delivery itself occurs as your energy starts to peter out.

essentially what you are looking for is to rotate a lot more (lifting the trailing leg as if stepping over something helps this), such that you are forced to take several steps after your delivery to slow down (my action ends up with me about half way down the wicket now!! close enough to sledge the batsman lol). your arms follow through quite well, but adding the middle and lower body into the action will yield massive increases in spin generation!

also, you dont necessarily need to raise your arm up higher, but "think tall" when youre bowling. if you keep your upper body higher and your back straighter then a roundarm action is probably the most potent. you want your shoulders to rotate up and over, whereas if you bend your back into the action and drop your chest you restrict that from happening. you might find that the roundarm action raises itself slightly in the process as well, to more like 45 degrees, as opposed to the 70-80 degrees at present. the arm position isnt important to begin with provided its natural. thinking tall also helps to flight the ball. as you progress youll find yourself transferring weight from back to front more and more this way too, which generates even more energy through the action. more energy = more spin.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

someblokecalleddave;387901 said:
Are you in Canada?

No, I am in Washington DC. Last weekend we got 30 inches and as I am typing right now there is snow storm working which will dump another 20 inches. Making it 4 feet of snow in 5 days.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Jim2109;387905 said:
to understand why the "big leg break" needs backspin you have to get your head around the physics of the ball. this is easy to do with a tennis ball in your living room to see the results. the physics all comes down to vectors. if you dont know what they are then its kinda hard to explain lol. but il try anyway.

basically you have to break the motion down into 2 directions. you have forward motion and sideways motion. the forward motion is you bowling the ball forwards. the sideways motion is generated by the spinning ball when it grip the pitch upon landing. the "resultant" is a combination of both of these opposing motions.

if you bowl with a small amount of sidespin (fig 1) then the ball will deviate a small amount off the pitch, but mostly continue its forward motion. add more sidespin (fig 2) and you get more sideways deviation, and also a bigger loss of forward motion. add backspin (fig 3) and sidespin together and then you generate even more sideways movement because it is more opposed to the forward motion. the key is that the ball has to lose forward motion in order to generate sideways motion. then ive shown the backspun slider in fig 4, and as you can see this just slows down off the pitch, but the slowing motion also results in a sharp "up and down" bounce.
legspinvectors.jpg


hopefully that makes some sense?

Yes that was really helpful. It makes it quite clear. Now does your fig3 correspond to seam position which is off big leg break? Just to make it doubly clear even though the seam direction is towards leg gully or lets say square leg the ball would turn leg side to off side? I always thought that the seam direction with the side spin gives the direction. So, according to me that bowl will turn towards off to leg making it off spin.

I will certainly give it a try with tennis ball when I get a chance. I have to go out to try it.

as for the directions of spin, ive drawn another bad diagram in paint showing the balls, the seam angles, and the direction of rotation.
legspin.jpg



ive not got any videos of backspun leg breaks, only of 90 degree leg breaks. i do however have a video of the backspun slider, which i could bowl fairly consistently at the end of last season. my attempts so far this season have been highly inaccurate, but il get it back in the next few weeks i expect once i start practicing it. it took me ages to get it the first time around. the wrist isnt supposed to go where it needs to, so often youll end up bowling giant turning leg breaks that stay low, which is no bad side effect lol.
YouTube - Wrist Spin Slider

So, basically to conclude the back spun slider which has its seam pointed towards leg gully is the big big leg break.

On another note what will happen to a ball which has total backspin and the seam is pointed towards gully or slip? Does any one bowl this?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

legspinenthusiast;387916 said:
So, basically to conclude the back spun slider which has its seam pointed towards leg gully is the big big leg break.

On another note what will happen to a ball which has total backspin and the seam is pointed towards gully or slip? Does any one bowl this?

Sounds like a scrambled seam backspinner, my kid bowls one by accident sometimes usually it comes straight on and the bounce varies depending what part of the ball it hits but sometimes it seems to just hang there and sort of sit up.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

legspinenthusiast;387916 said:
So, basically to conclude the back spun slider which has its seam pointed towards leg gully is the big big leg break.

On another note what will happen to a ball which has total backspin and the seam is pointed towards gully or slip? Does any one bowl this?

essentially yes, a big leg break is halfway between a slider and a square leg break.

if you had the seam pointed toward slip with backspin then that would become an off break. basically if the seam is pointed straight at the stumps with backspin its a slider. if it points into the leg side with backspin then its a leg break. if it points into the off side with backspin then its an off break.

this is the nature of my off spinning flipper. i turn the wrist past pure backspin so that the seam points to about gully, and it turns as a big off break. i can bowl it with overspin as well though just to confuse matters lol.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Jim2109;387905 said:
to understand why the "big leg break" needs backspin you have to get your head around the physics of the ball. this is easy to do with a tennis ball in your living room to see the results. the physics all comes down to vectors. if you dont know what they are then its kinda hard to explain lol. but il try anyway.

basically you have to break the motion down into 2 directions. you have forward motion and sideways motion. the forward motion is you bowling the ball forwards. the sideways motion is generated by the spinning ball when it grip the pitch upon landing. the "resultant" is a combination of both of these opposing motions.

if you bowl with a small amount of sidespin (fig 1) then the ball will deviate a small amount off the pitch, but mostly continue its forward motion. add more sidespin (fig 2) and you get more sideways deviation, and also a bigger loss of forward motion. add backspin (fig 3) and sidespin together and then you generate even more sideways movement because it is more opposed to the forward motion. the key is that the ball has to lose forward motion in order to generate sideways motion. then ive shown the backspun slider in fig 4, and as you can see this just slows down off the pitch, but the slowing motion also results in a sharp "up and down" bounce.
legspinvectors.jpg


hopefully that makes some sense?

as for the directions of spin, ive drawn another bad diagram in paint showing the balls, the seam angles, and the direction of rotation.
legspin.jpg



ive not got any videos of backspun leg breaks, only of 90 degree leg breaks. i do however have a video of the backspun slider, which i could bowl fairly consistently at the end of last season. my attempts so far this season have been highly inaccurate, but il get it back in the next few weeks i expect once i start practicing it. it took me ages to get it the first time around. the wrist isnt supposed to go where it needs to, so often youll end up bowling giant turning leg breaks that stay low, which is no bad side effect lol.
YouTube - Wrist Spin Slider

Superb Jim, I'll have to have a proper look later when I'm at home.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Thanks for the comments on my action. If I boil it down I have to: follow through at all costs, lift my back leg up and over, build more energy into the final steps, and I know I need to remember to aim my shoulder because obviously I'm the only one who saw where the balls went...

As for building energy into the final steps I took a close look at some of my better deliveries to see what it looked like when I was doing it "right", sure enough they were the ones with the most follow-through and the ones I lifted the back foot most, but I also noticed that on my second step I go down onto my right foot and push up too early, and I think if I can extend that push into the next step I'll get that bit more energy in the delivery. I've tried it a bit in the garden today and it feels pretty good - accuracy was better too.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Spiderlounge;387975 said:
Thanks for the comments on my action. If I boil it down I have to: follow through at all costs, lift my back leg up and over, build more energy into the final steps, and I know I need to remember to aim my shoulder because obviously I'm the only one who saw where the balls went...

add "think tall" to that list as well. or at least try it out. it might not work for you, but i find it helps massively to try and stay upright. you wont actually stay upright, youll still bend into the action, but just thinking it does get you a bit taller which aids pretty much everything!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

I came across your video by accident Spiderlounge; I am not often on this thread but I do love a good video :).

The main thing that hit me, as Jim says, was your follow through, but from an injury point of view. I am afraid your left foot is setting you up for problems. You must be lighter on your left foot and you must pivot on the ball of your foot.

At the moment, the angle is poor; you need to start with it facing down the wicket. The fact that you do not pivot [swivvel round] has extreme consequences on the forces down your left side. I hate to be alarmist but if you do not change this, you will feel it in your left knee, up through your left hip and into your left lumbar area. If this is not attended to, we are talking about knee operations and stress fractures in your spine.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Liz Ward;387978 said:
I came across your video by accident Spiderlounge; I am not often on this thread but I do love a good video :).

The main thing that hit me, as Jim says, was your follow through, but from an injury point of view. I am afraid your left foot is setting you up for problems. You must be lighter on your left foot and you must pivot on the ball of your foot.

At the moment, the angle is poor; you need to start with it facing down the wicket. The fact that you do not pivot [swivvel round] has extreme consequences on the forces down your left side. I hate to be alarmist but if you do not change this, you will feel it in your left knee, up through your left hip and into your left lumbar area. If this is not attended to, we are talking about knee operations and stress fractures in your spine.

have you ever had a look at my videos Liz? im curious to see what your thoughts are toward potential injuries.

YouTube - Jim2109's Channel

my action has changed somewhat since the videos were shot (il get some new videos shortly), but the basic shape is mostly the same. i dont find i get much pain whilst bowling anymore (i used to get aches in my lower back after an hour or 2 last season, but since ive changed my action i dont get this anymore), but my right knee (trailing leg) aches after a while, and usually continues to do so for a day or 2 after when i put weight on it. im pretty hard on my leading leg, but because i transfer the weight over quickly whilst rotating i think i put more stress into my trailing knee when it then lands (it probably doesnt help that im about 1.5 stone overweight compared to what i sit at when im in good physical shape).

il get some new videos soon though (maybe this week) which will show my more recent progress.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Hey all, i've just posted a new article on my Spin blog, be great to hear some feedback as its all about Adil Rashid's omission from the England tour squad. My teams indoor nets begin in a couple of weeks and i'm going to video some of my bowling and post it up on youtube. be awesome to have some feedback on that as well. anyone else finding the wait for the summer absolutely unbearable? three months without bowling a single leg break has been utter torture. flipping from hand to hand is not exactly nourishing!

cheers
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Jim2109;387979 said:
have you ever had a look at my videos Liz? im curious to see what your thoughts are toward potential injuries.

The video looks good Jim. If you can get a new one up that would be great; a full frontal like Spider's would tell me quite a lot if you can manage it. I might miss it though so you may need to give me a nudge; a new thread would work if you wouldn't mind.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

GoldenArm;387980 said:
Hey all, i've just posted a new article on my Spin blog, be great to hear some feedback as its all about Adil Rashid's omission from the England tour squad.

i was rather hoping we might see him in Bangladesh as well. hes not been completely dropped from England reckoning though, hes in the Lions squad that are touring UAE, and played their first game today. it seems that Tredwell played though and Rashid didnt, and Tredwell took 3-22 so Rashid isnt getting any closer to a chance.

however, from what ive seen of him he doesnt look good enough to be playing at international level yet. he was given limited chances in limited overs formats, which isnt easy at all. but just his overall technique and approach doesnt look good. he scrambles the seam, he bowls defensive lines, he doesnt turn it big, he doesnt get it to do much in flight. contrast him with Steve Smith and you can see why hes not even close to pushing Swann for a place in the side. the way Swann is playing of late theres no chance for anyone else unless he gets injured.

hes still young, so maybe he will go away for a couple of years, keep progressing and then come back later and get a proper chance. you say about the Aussies loving their leg spinners - i think England hype up the prospect a lot more. we havent had a top class international wrist spinner in my living memory, and having seen what the likes of Warne, Muralitharan, MacGill, Kumble, etc have done to our batsmen over the years its understandable why any youngsters now will get fast tracked. the problem there is that they dont get given a proper chance and they arent ready for it when they do get one.

i have some pretty negative opinions of the England selection process. far too many players keep their place based on reputation and not on form. if i was in charge there would be 3 or 4 current players that wouldnt even make the test squad. Cook, Trott, Bell, Pietersen, and Prior are all culprits for being axed. id bring in Denly, Carberry, Foster, and an extra pace bowler because our 3 man pace attack is stretched.

theyve drafted in Carberry and Shahzad (not sure if hes in for test or not?), but Denly looked excellent when he got limited chances last year, and Foster is an awesome wicket keeper and an excellent aggressive batsman at number 6 or 7. Eoin Morgan and Luke Wright have got to be close to test call ups as well. i dont understand why aggressive batsmen never get selected for the test squad. watching Mark Boucher for SA last month and comparing him to the shambles that is Matt Prior its no wonder our middle order was collapsing every match.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Liz Ward;387981 said:
The video looks good Jim. If you can get a new one up that would be great; a full frontal like Spider's would tell me quite a lot if you can manage it. I might miss it though so you may need to give me a nudge; a new thread would work if you wouldn't mind.

il probably make a new thread when ive got some new video anyway, so il drop you a message to let you know once i do. thanks.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Liz Ward;387978 said:
I came across your video by accident Spiderlounge; I am not often on this thread but I do love a good video :).

The main thing that hit me, as Jim says, was your follow through, but from an injury point of view. I am afraid your left foot is setting you up for problems. You must be lighter on your left foot and you must pivot on the ball of your foot.

At the moment, the angle is poor; you need to start with it facing down the wicket. The fact that you do not pivot [swivvel round] has extreme consequences on the forces down your left side. I hate to be alarmist but if you do not change this, you will feel it in your left knee, up through your left hip and into your left lumbar area. If this is not attended to, we are talking about knee operations and stress fractures in your spine.

Many thanks Liz, I was feeling pains in my knee, hip and particularly my lumbar area after nets on Saturday and was wondering whether it was just par for the course for bowlers or whether it was down to my action, hence the video was partly to have a look at that. It's great to now know what the problem is. I'll have to add "swivel foot" to my to-do list...
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Jim2109;387956 said:
essentially yes, a big leg break is halfway between a slider and a square leg break.
There is confusion in what a big leg break and a square leg break is here. In my book the biggest leg break is the one with 100% sidespin like the one that bowled strauss. The others with backspin will turn massively but not as much as the one with full side spin. Obviously provided they both hit the seam
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

It'll be interesting to see any close up slo mo' video footage that we can get together over the season.

With regards to Golden Arms Adil Rashid article, whilst I'm not surprised it's a shame that he hasn't had the opportunity to bowl in Bangladesh, but I reckon he needs some more years under his belt before he'll have the constitution to bowl in big games. In South Africa and in the 20/20 matches where I've seen clips of him bowling, he looks nervous and under pressure as though he's aware that the world is watching with expectation.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Spiderlounge;387986 said:
Many thanks Liz, I was feeling pains in my knee, hip and particularly my lumbar area after nets on Saturday and was wondering whether it was just par for the course for bowlers or whether it was down to my action, hence the video was partly to have a look at that. It's great to now know what the problem is. I'll have to add "swivel foot" to my to-do list...

Be careful, by the end of the season they want to get you to do this http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2008/10/11/cullenbailey_narrowweb__300x360,0.jpg
 
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