Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

[gundalf7]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Actually it would seem all the shorter highlights from the t20 champions league are still available on the sponsors website.

highlights from the final, steve smith opens the bowling and gets 2 wickets from rank ball as well as getting tonked unfortunately
CLT20 - Video Gallery

Or the list of video available at: Matches

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I see my son is equal 4th or outright 7th on the bowling average table for his comp. But his economy 4.58 is the worst in top 10. His long term average for 4 years is 3.3 and i expect that to be more like it by the end of season. His strike rate is also the worst in top 10.
He is the leading bowler in his team on the club stats. He usually bowls the last over because they have to bowl that one out and my kid is the only one certain not to concede a wide or no-ball.
Imitation is the highest form of flattery and he has got a few kids trying to bowl legspin. Most kids into cricket here learn how to bowl a legbreak but turning them into legspinners is a lot of work. They start off underpitching, get flogged then go back to pace usually.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

NLA Australian Newspapers - article display

This is what happened the day grimmett first bowled his backspinning flipper. Years later he told the full story. He only bowled two and they both took a wicket each lbw!
Before he bowled the over with the flippers he changed ends to bowl with the wind. That surprised the journalist who wrote the account in one paper but it is an insight into his method. There is a fuller account in the sydney paper ,also online, but this website has hundreds of stories of grimmett and lots about his "mystery ball."

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

A bit off topic but i have lost a lot of interest in this season now. Had a run in with the coach over the bullying of my son. Dave knows the story and a similar thing happened to him. My boys crime was being given a few extra overs to bowl which upset some people. The coach has changed the goal posts now and the new rule appears to be its not ok for his boy to be sledged, as he was at indoor and swift action was taken to fix that, whereas it is open season on sledging my kid because he gives a bit back to the server.
We both feel like throwing it in and start up next season somewhere where they take sledging more seriously. We could do indoor or even the outdoor winter comp in Sydney to keep in some form and we bowl a bit nearly every day anyway. There is a twilight comp as well in the holidays so we are keeping our options open. Long Live Legspin.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Glad we did not pack it in. My son had his best spell of the season. 5 overs 2 wicket maiden overs and loads of close ones, he could easily had 4 or 5 with more luck. But when you are creating the chances you will succeed. The official score is not up yet but this will help his averages because he only went for 5 or so runs in all.
The dismissals were something else. A stumping from an enormous legbreak that spun more than a foot and cleaned bowled with a slider. Both planned as well. I will give a dave like ball by ball descrption of all this latter because there is a fair bit of legspin stuff involved.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

theres no better response to sledging/criticism/other negativity than going out and putting in a stonker of a performance!! your kid just needs to let his bowling do the talking, the other kids can bully him all they like, but at the end of the day if he keeps his head up and the coach still picks him to bowl, his figures will speak for themselves, and he will be the one with a chance of a career in cricket at the end of it. whilst the others who spent all their time nursing their jealousy instead of trying to improve their games will end up nowhere.

this sort of thing happens in every sport at every level, ive experienced it both in sport and outside of sport, with the exact same thing. youre better at something than someone else, they dont like it, so they try to turn people against you. everytime the best answer has simply been to carry on as i was, ignore them, and at the end of the day when my performance is better than theirs, it gets rubbed in their face and they end up looking the idiot. it makes you wonder how many potentially great people (sportsmen or otherwise) have failed to make it because of idiots giving them stick in the early years. your boy just needs to rise above it and carry on playing his own game. as it sounds like he did yesterday (or is that today? i can never keep track of the australian timezone compared to ours)

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

theres no better response to sledging/criticism/other negativity than going out and putting in a stonker of a performance!! your kid just needs to let his bowling do the talking, the other kids can bully him all they like, but at the end of the day if he keeps his head up and the coach still picks him to bowl, his figures will speak for themselves, and he will be the one with a chance of a career in cricket at the end of it. whilst the others who spent all their time nursing their jealousy instead of trying to improve their games will end up nowhere.

this sort of thing happens in every sport at every level, ive experienced it both in sport and outside of sport, with the exact same thing. youre better at something than someone else, they dont like it, so they try to turn people against you. everytime the best answer has simply been to carry on as i was, ignore them, and at the end of the day when my performance is better than theirs, it gets rubbed in their face and they end up looking the idiot. it makes you wonder how many potentially great people (sportsmen or otherwise) have failed to make it because of idiots giving them stick in the early years. your boy just needs to rise above it and carry on playing his own game. as it sounds like he did yesterday (or is that today? i can never keep track of the australian timezone compared to ours)

As you say 'let your bowling do the talking", I use those exact words nearly every week to him. Also you say "rise above it" which we got from a line owen wilson used in starsky hutch movie and I use this to him in lots of things as well as cricket.
The coach i suppose rose above it himself by giving him the extra overs despite my quarrel with him, he did not take out any reprisals. The boy who started it is an excellent batsman and fieldsman but his bowling isn't as good, he can bowl pace and legspin and can spin the ball but like most of the occassional legspinners he is usually too short mostly and gets caned by every batsman. He resented my boy getting the extra overs, my solution would be to let him bat every week at the top of the order. The coach has rewarded good bowling by favouring the bowlers but good batting doesn't earn you anything.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I wasn't sure my boy could bowl on saturday because he had a sore ankle the day before and after his bowling it was his turn for opening bat but his ankle was sore again and sat out.
The pitch they played on is our favourite to bowl on and he always spins on it unless it is wet. If it has got a little moisture he still is a handful because the bowl skids through lower and he hits the stumps and gets lbw's he wouldn't get otherwise.
No moisture yesterday, another hot day around the old century mark , not much breeze but he had cross breeze blowing from cover and helping his drift.
Just watching his action he looked better than i have ever seen him bowl. He is a different build to me and has big shoulders and upper thighs, i am pretty skinny but he is built like a mini warne. He has copied warne and yesterday he was getting the " bowled shane" from some of the kids and parents.
First over was a wicket maiden, his first maiden of the year surprisingly. The batsman had the right idea, get down the wicket to well pitched up legspin but he left the crease too early and just charged straight down. The ball that done him was a huge spinner, out of the hand it drifted outside legstump into wide territory, but i saw how cocked his wrist was and how hard he flicked it and the keeper took it over off stump by which time the batsman was well out of his ground and my kid had his second stumping of the season. It went close to bowling him around his legs as the ball was taken just on top of offstump. We had our best keeper at work. Our other keepers have botched several easy stumpings. A good keeper is more important than just about anything.
One thing noticeable was how the strokes the kids played were affected by the spin some of the shots still had the effect of spin and were doing some bizzare things. Lots of mishits in the air and a few spun like crazy around the stump area and almost bowled some kid a couple of times with some looking like fireworks fizzing about.
The new batsman played like i have not seen before. He just stayed in his stance and watched the ball bounce and spin past the stumps. He may have been mesmerised and hadn't played good legspin yet. He did not score but it would be hard to get him out with conventional legspin i suppose but he got out to pace at the other end.
I think it was jim who suggested trying a slider as a change. We put lots of work into his own brand of slider this week. He bowled it last ball in the third over and clean bowled a kid. I knew something was different from side-on, no big loop and drop, then lower bounce. We dont expect too many clean bowled on concrete but he hits them on turf a lot. After the game he said it was the slider.
The keeper put down two difficult catches in that over. The way he was bowling anything could have happened. I thought a double hat trick might go down but the luck was with the batsmen.
This performance will help bring down that economy rate. Probably places him 3 or 4 on the comp bowling aggregates and averages. He has already taken more wickets then all last season. Last year he was trying to bowl a gatting ball every delivery and that did not work. This year it is more the macgill line he is trying for. Last year he strayed too much on the short side. I reckon he has bowled two full tosses and no long hops in 24 overs so far this year. You cant ask for more than that.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

sounds like he had a good match then! a well disguised slider thrown in amongst big leg breaks has got to be the best variation of them all. its the only variation IMO that cant be picked from the hand, cant be picked in flight, but still does something completely different once it hits the pitch.

the flipper is fairly obvious to anyone who knows what it is. if you flight a flipper then its nowhere near as effective as a slider simply because you cant generate the same revs (unless youre one of a few very special bowlers in history) and thus it doesnt stay so low unless its delivered fast and flat. top spinners and wrong'uns can look similar to a leg break, but its hard to fully disguise the hand. the top spinner can be better disguised, but the extra bounce means youll almost never get an LBW decision, youre hoping to knick a glove to the keeper. and a wrong'un is easier to pick and has to be bowled on a different line to be effective.

but the slider...you bowl it at middle stump, you flight it the same as a big leg break, it even looks like a big leg break out of the hand. it doesnt really carry in the air, even if you rip it (probably because of its trajectory, its not flat like a flipper). then it hits the pitch, takes a load of pace of, and goes straight. the first moment that the batsman knows youve bowled a good slider is when its hit him in the pads, or he got lucky and managed to scramble a bat in front of it to block it!

the more we discuss it the more im convinced its THE variation to have for taking wickets. top spin and wrong'uns give you control, but a slider gives you "easy" wickets without compromising your technique (e.g. youll never develop a slider syndrome, its just a big leg break turned a few degrees, or even just a leg break with a scrambled seam can do the trick. it doesnt have the same unpredictability off the pitch then though)

i even reckon that the only reason the likes of Warne have been credited so much for the flipper is because commentators couldnt pick a good legspinners armoury to save their lives. the number of older Warne clips you see where he quite clearly bowls middle stump out of the ground with a slider, and the commentators use the word flipper a dozen times per sentence talking about the slow motion replay! the reason other bowlers use a flipper is simply because they cant bowl a slider. if they could i reckon theyd use that far more often. Warne did, he took Ian Bell's wicket about 10 times in 3 years with it lol. compared to flippers that took maybe 1 or 2 wickets of the entire England squad in that same period.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

sounds like he had a good match then! a well disguised slider thrown in amongst big leg breaks has got to be the best variation of them all. its the only variation IMO that cant be picked from the hand, cant be picked in flight, but still does something completely different once it hits the pitch.

the flipper is fairly obvious to anyone who knows what it is. if you flight a flipper then its nowhere near as effective as a slider simply because you cant generate the same revs (unless youre one of a few very special bowlers in history) and thus it doesnt stay so low unless its delivered fast and flat. top spinners and wrong'uns can look similar to a leg break, but its hard to fully disguise the hand. the top spinner can be better disguised, but the extra bounce means youll almost never get an LBW decision, youre hoping to knick a glove to the keeper. and a wrong'un is easier to pick and has to be bowled on a different line to be effective.

but the slider...you bowl it at middle stump, you flight it the same as a big leg break, it even looks like a big leg break out of the hand. it doesnt really carry in the air, even if you rip it (probably because of its trajectory, its not flat like a flipper). then it hits the pitch, takes a load of pace of, and goes straight. the first moment that the batsman knows youve bowled a good slider is when its hit him in the pads, or he got lucky and managed to scramble a bat in front of it to block it!

the more we discuss it the more im convinced its THE variation to have for taking wickets. top spin and wrong'uns give you control, but a slider gives you "easy" wickets without compromising your technique (e.g. youll never develop a slider syndrome, its just a big leg break turned a few degrees, or even just a leg break with a scrambled seam can do the trick. it doesnt have the same unpredictability off the pitch then though)

i even reckon that the only reason the likes of Warne have been credited so much for the flipper is because commentators couldnt pick a good legspinners armoury to save their lives. the number of older Warne clips you see where he quite clearly bowls middle stump out of the ground with a slider, and the commentators use the word flipper a dozen times per sentence talking about the slow motion replay! the reason other bowlers use a flipper is simply because they cant bowl a slider. if they could i reckon theyd use that far more often. Warne did, he took Ian Bell's wicket about 10 times in 3 years with it lol. compared to flippers that took maybe 1 or 2 wickets of the entire England squad in that same period.

Yeah i could pick most flippers by the thumb movement more than anything, especially if you face someone long enough. Also they eventually reveal their wronguns and topspinners through overexposure as well. That applied to teamates and other legspinners i have trained with.

Some of those early commentaries on warne are almost comical when you see them now. They mixed everything up former test players and all. Especially early on before they had a refresher course from benaud on what the hell he was doing. It wasn't as if the flipper was completely dead, Trevor Hohns bowled Ian Botham with one in 1989.
Like Benaud, Warne probably took more wickets with sliders than flippers. Philpott said Benaud became obsessed with the flipper but his slider was his best delivery. Philpott called it a cut through delvery, which is your point. Surrounded by legbreaks it is deadly .
Bradman also thought benaud was too into the flipper, Bob Simpson tells the story and simpson himself agreed with bradman . This was in 1960, he never saw the potential of the ball and in fact he did not understand just what Grimmett and Pepper were doing. It was only as an old man when Bradman saw warne did he think back to his old team mate Grimmett and start to realise what he had worked on for all those years was a wonder ball.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I was reflecting on the time three weeks back when my son went for 35 off 5 overs, his first real caning. We broke our routine before the game. It was on a pitch we had not seen before. Normally if that is coming up we will go to the ground a week before and check it out and have a bowl there. He said after the game the pitch felt strange.
Also on the morning of the match we normally stop and bowl one or two overs on the way there. We didn't do that because of the heat and he had played all day the day before for his school. We always have that bowl to get any bad balls out of the system. But that day he came across one kid , the only kid who knew how to play legspin so far really, he is a school state and district representative player.
Our boys just lost yesterday. My boy bowled 5 overs and only one wide, trying for the big spinner he said . Now he is performing the hardest and most innaccurate thing in bowling, well flighted legspin.The rest of the team went for 65 sundries!!!!!!. The 2 offspinners were pretty good but everybody else must have had a shocker. What an absolute disgrace. That is the big difference between cricket when i was a kid 40 years ago. That would not, could not happen.
Checking his 2 wickets they are both good players one topscored with 29 before being stumped the other one scored 52 against us last time last year. They are not tailenders.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Yeah i could pick most flippers by the thumb movement more than anything, especially if you face someone long enough. Also they eventually reveal their wronguns and topspinners through overexposure as well. That applied to teamates and other legspinners i have trained with.

Some of those early commentaries on warne are almost comical when you see them now. They mixed everything up former test players and all. Especially early on before they had a refresher course from benaud on what the hell he was doing. It wasn't as if the flipper was completely dead, Trevor Hohns bowled Ian Botham with one in 1989.
Like Benaud, Warne probably took more wickets with sliders than flippers. Philpott said Benaud became obsessed with the flipper but his slider was his best delivery. Philpott called it a cut through delvery, which is your point. Surrounded by legbreaks it is deadly .
Bradman also thought benaud was too into the flipper, Bob Simpson tells the story and simpson himself agreed with bradman . This was in 1960, he never saw the potential of the ball and in fact he did not understand just what Grimmett and Pepper were doing. It was only as an old man when Bradman saw warne did he think back to his old team mate Grimmett and start to realise what he had worked on for all those years was a wonder ball.

Can't say much as I'm writing my essays, but the point you're making about the revs on the Flipper compared to the Slider I completely agree with. I said a couple of weeks back I've inadvertently ended up with a good slider flick when trying get the Biggun and the Slider looks on for the summer, but today I was bowling the slider and watching how much it came back to me flicked out of the hand and let drop to the floor. I tried the Flipper in comparison - and I kind of pride myself on having a pretty good back-spin on my Flippers but man it isn't anywhere near what I can get with the slider!

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I have seen the revs you get on the flipper on youtube so the slider must have some on it.
You better get back to work mate. I have to go and letter some honour boards for the school.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Hi all. Back again. This is for Macca's collection. I remember him over the bbc world service. They said he aws not a big turner. Well seeing this he does not look too bad. WWOS - video Look at the bottom of the page. Holland takes 10 as the link starts on the Merv Hughes' video

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Hi all. Back again. This is for Macca's collection. I remember him over the bbc world service. They said he aws not a big turner. Well seeing this he does not look too bad. WWOS - video Look at the bottom of the page. Holland takes 10 as the link starts on the Merv Hughes' video

Welcome back sadspinner, dutchy holland clip brought back memories. He was from my area and I saw him bowl a fair bit. He was an old fashioned slow legspinner. He had a great backspinning slider and a zooter but did not use a flipper I dont think.
It was a great batting line-up he wrecked though the pitch was real turner. Holland was great at the SCG bowling from the randwick end into the north easter. That breeze is ideal for an offspinner as well, all the great english off spinners like titmus and emburey used it to great effect and if swanny can drift it he should go good there as well.
Sadspinner did you see someone on the thread, gundalf i think, might be going on a cricket trip to Malta?

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

My kids bowling figures were 5 overs 3 maidens 2/8 which means he has bowled 24 overs and taken 6/94 so far. He is outright third on the bowling averages and aggregate tables for his comp of 80 bowlers. His economy is now below 4.
Of the six wickets , three were tailenders and three have very good batting records over several years including the top ranked batsman in the comp.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Glad we did not pack it in. My son had his best spell of the season. 5 overs 2 wicket maiden overs and loads of close ones, he could easily had 4 or 5 with more luck. But when you are creating the chances you will succeed. The official score is not up yet but this will help his averages because he only went for 5 or so runs in all.
The dismissals were something else. A stumping from an enormous legbreak that spun more than a foot and cleaned bowled with a slider. Both planned as well. I will give a dave like ball by ball descrption of all this latter because there is a fair bit of legspin stuff involved.

Good to hear that all that crap seems to have settled and you're still in there, the whole situation you described probably gets played out over and over in all clubs and sports, I've seen it happen in soccer and cricket now. But it's good to see you're back in there and that it hasn't unsettled your boy.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

As you say 'let your bowling do the talking", I use those exact words nearly every week to him. Also you say "rise above it" which we got from a line owen wilson used in starsky hutch movie and I use this to him in lots of things as well as cricket.
The coach i suppose rose above it himself by giving him the extra overs despite my quarrel with him, he did not take out any reprisals. The boy who started it is an excellent batsman and fieldsman but his bowling isn't as good, he can bowl pace and legspin and can spin the ball but like most of the occassional legspinners he is usually too short mostly and gets caned by every batsman. He resented my boy getting the extra overs, my solution would be to let him bat every week at the top of the order. The coach has rewarded good bowling by favouring the bowlers but good batting doesn't earn you anything.

Yeah Jim's reponse to this was as you'd expect from anyone with any sense of civility, but the one thing I feel Jim is possibly wrong about is the fact that those people then feel something if they are seen to fall flat on their faces. The incident my kids endured was that every mistake they made was picked up by one kid who then had to say something about the mistake, the comments being vitriolic and demeaning rather than supportive. The bottom line being that this kid doesn't like playing with my kids because he feels he is a far superior player and that they (My kids) lose the game for him and the other 'Good' players. This kid then has the responsibility of opening the batting and went for a golden duck. Yeah the kids obviously gutted, but he's gutted for himself not for the team - he doesn't give a s**t about the team if he's not integral to the result. The rest of the team say nothing about the Golden duck and the kid walks off to silence and condolences from his mates, father and the coach. Everyone knows that if my kid was to turn round and say 'What the **** was that all about you useless ****' Not that my kids swear it would then escalate into a full on fight, cos this kids got a chip on his shoulder the size of Ayres Rock. The net result will be bad feelings between the kid and mine and my kid being the new kid on the block would sooner leave the team than play under that kind of atmosphere.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

I wasn't sure my boy could bowl on saturday because he had a sore ankle the day before and after his bowling it was his turn for opening bat but his ankle was sore again and sat out.
The pitch they played on is our favourite to bowl on and he always spins on it unless it is wet. If it has got a little moisture he still is a handful because the bowl skids through lower and he hits the stumps and gets lbw's he wouldn't get otherwise.
No moisture yesterday, another hot day around the old century mark , not much breeze but he had cross breeze blowing from cover and helping his drift.
Just watching his action he looked better than i have ever seen him bowl. He is a different build to me and has big shoulders and upper thighs, i am pretty skinny but he is built like a mini warne. He has copied warne and yesterday he was getting the " bowled shane" from some of the kids and parents.
First over was a wicket maiden, his first maiden of the year surprisingly. The batsman had the right idea, get down the wicket to well pitched up legspin but he left the crease too early and just charged straight down. The ball that done him was a huge spinner, out of the hand it drifted outside legstump into wide territory, but i saw how cocked his wrist was and how hard he flicked it and the keeper took it over off stump by which time the batsman was well out of his ground and my kid had his second stumping of the season. It went close to bowling him around his legs as the ball was taken just on top of offstump. We had our best keeper at work. Our other keepers have botched several easy stumpings. A good keeper is more important than just about anything.
One thing noticeable was how the strokes the kids played were affected by the spin some of the shots still had the effect of spin and were doing some bizzare things. Lots of mishits in the air and a few spun like crazy around the stump area and almost bowled some kid a couple of times with some looking like fireworks fizzing about.
The new batsman played like i have not seen before. He just stayed in his stance and watched the ball bounce and spin past the stumps. He may have been mesmerised and hadn't played good legspin yet. He did not score but it would be hard to get him out with conventional legspin i suppose but he got out to pace at the other end.
I think it was jim who suggested trying a slider as a change. We put lots of work into his own brand of slider this week. He bowled it last ball in the third over and clean bowled a kid. I knew something was different from side-on, no big loop and drop, then lower bounce. We dont expect too many clean bowled on concrete but he hits them on turf a lot. After the game he said it was the slider.
The keeper put down two difficult catches in that over. The way he was bowling anything could have happened. I thought a double hat trick might go down but the luck was with the batsmen.
This performance will help bring down that economy rate. Probably places him 3 or 4 on the comp bowling aggregates and averages. He has already taken more wickets then all last season. Last year he was trying to bowl a gatting ball every delivery and that did not work. This year it is more the macgill line he is trying for. Last year he strayed too much on the short side. I reckon he has bowled two full tosses and no long hops in 24 overs so far this year. You cant ask for more than that.

Sounds brilliant and I said it's good that you didn't throw the towel in. The use of the Slider is interesting me more and more and it looks like that may end up being my developmental project for the summer. I've also theorised that whereas I've had no luck getting the big leg break going round the loop coming in from the Top-Spinner direction maybe if I get the Slider I might have some luck going backwards round the loop to the Big Leg Break? I'm sure most of us on here know what I'm talking about?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Yeah i could pick most flippers by the thumb movement more than anything, especially if you face someone long enough. Also they eventually reveal their wronguns and topspinners through overexposure as well. That applied to teamates and other legspinners i have trained with.

Some of those early commentaries on warne are almost comical when you see them now. They mixed everything up former test players and all. Especially early on before they had a refresher course from benaud on what the hell he was doing. It wasn't as if the flipper was completely dead, Trevor Hohns bowled Ian Botham with one in 1989.
Like Benaud, Warne probably took more wickets with sliders than flippers. Philpott said Benaud became obsessed with the flipper but his slider was his best delivery. Philpott called it a cut through delvery, which is your point. Surrounded by legbreaks it is deadly .
Bradman also thought benaud was too into the flipper, Bob Simpson tells the story and simpson himself agreed with bradman . This was in 1960, he never saw the potential of the ball and in fact he did not understand just what Grimmett and Pepper were doing. It was only as an old man when Bradman saw warne did he think back to his old team mate Grimmett and start to realise what he had worked on for all those years was a wonder ball.

I've always been slightly sceptical about the merits of the back-spinning Flipper, over the last couple of year on here I'm fairly certain I've said before that it's the ball that most closely resembles a normal pace/seam up delivery - what with it being flat in flight. I've found that most batsmen see it coming and it's flight and pace means their reaction is their basic bread butter batting technique to deal with it. The slider though is obviously very different. With regards the comments re Flippers yeah - none of them have a clue, most people don't ...........even that Danish Kaneria bloke and he's a bowler!!!! YouTube - BigHitterMag.com Danish Kaneria's Master Class. Bowling the flipper who the hell taught him that!!!!