Wrist Spin Bowling

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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;360433 said:
I got side-tracked studying o'reillys works for any grimmett stuff. The first thing you will notice in o reillys writings is; he was not a legspinner, and he does not " believe" in the things legspinners do.

Drop, according to Bill O Reilly, does not exist and is just a figment of our imagination! Same goes for everything else we think we have going for us.

He described himself more as a pace bowler would.

O Reilly wrote that just as Bradman was the greatest batsman he ever witnessed, Clarrie Grimmett was the greatest bowler he saw play cricket.
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But he used to bowl a googly didn't he . Or did he call it an offcutter. Read a book on SF barnes who seemed to be in the same category as O'Reilly. In fact he played little county cricket and played for long years in the lancaster league, which I presume was not as good as county cricket, even though in test matches he had very good figures.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

ahh dave thats gutting u seem to be having nearly as bad lucky with injuries as me, just make sure you don't try and bowl before it has fully healed as you can damage the tendons/ ligaments as i did and it takes more like 6 weeks to heal. I won't be bowling in the next week or 2 either still as there is still a large hole in my finger stopping me bending it and it is still not showing many signs of healing.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Sadspinner, those british pathe films you unearthed could be critical. The first ashes test 1930. The players have black arm bands. Grimmett declared he was going to bowl his new invention in that test. He demonstrated his mystery ball to the press a week before. Mailley, a great legspinner himself, saw the demo and said Grimmett had discovered a new way to bowl spin.

Grimmett gets 3 wickets in 4 balls using his new ball. The footage shows Woolley bamboozled by a grimmett mystery ball, Hendren was bowled and the veteran batsman declared the ball that dismissed him was "a new one to me".

The events caused a sensation and you can read some of the press reports online. This was ten years before he first bowled the backspinning flipper. That was first bowled in 1940, but I have plenty of evidence he was bowling other "flippers" as early as 1930.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

As you're a man of many injuries and have a wealth of experience in this field I'll heed your advice. With regards your cut finger try this. Buy yourself an English lettuce and eat the whole thing, take a full day or maybe two to do it and then watch how your cut heals up super fast. I've got a busted ear drum and when I surf I have to do this manouvre called a duck dive which means I got under the water about 4 or 5 feet as a 6 or 8 foot wave passes over the top of me. That kind of depth causes pressure that forces it's way past my ear drum re-tearing it and allowing water that then goes sceptic in my middle ear. A doctor told me back in 1980 that I should never swim again let alone surf otherwise I'll end up deaf. I was just about to go surfing for 6 months every day but he'd been giving me ever increasing in strength anti-biotics and also made the point that if I kept damaging the ear, the antibiotics would need to be stronger in order to heal the ear and clear up the infection. But he asked me about my diet and said something about eating a balanced diet in order to facilitate more affective healing. I then went away and got a book from the library written by a SAS soldier and it were details about the kind of minimum diet you should have in order to function at full capacity in combat situations. In his recommendations was 'Leafy Green vegatables' because they produce the vitamins and what have you that are necessary to encourage good white blood cells and it's these that heal and look after your skin. So when my ear drum gets busted these days instead of having a course of amoxil (Antibiotics) and it taking 2 to 3 weeks to heal up I eat a whole bloody great lettuce and my ear is fixed within about 3 to 4 days. It might be complete B******s but if it is it's a bloody good placebo affect. You should try it.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;360434 said:
But he used to bowl a googly didn't he . Or did he call it an offcutter. Read a book on SF barnes who seemed to be in the same category as O'Reilly. In fact he played little county cricket and played for long years in the lancaster league, which I presume was not as good as county cricket, even though in test matches he had very good figures.
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O Reilly, from his writings, seemed as if his main method was lots of fast bouncing wronguns with two short legs waiting.
He reckoned he was given the new ball a lot, even in tests, and was expected to bowl as a swing/seamer almost.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

thanks for the advice dave, i'd guess my non healthy student diet probablly doesn't help when it comes to being good for the body. MY finger still looks like its been stiched back together and thats nearly 2 weeks since it happened
DSC00150.JPG (image)
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;360430 said:
Mendis' strength I think is his accuracy and the fact that he bowls incredibly straight. I do not know about his statistics but assume he has an inordinate amount of LBWs. He also seems to have a very nice googly, even though it does not turn anywhere as much as yours my old friend.
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Yeah watching him and others too I'm kind of baffled by their success rates as you say Mendis is on the stumps and when it turns it's what you'd describe as 'Okay' for want of a better description, not having access to sky and being able to see a spell unfold and get a real sense of what's happening it kind of looks a bit bizarre that the worlds best batsmen are all un-done by a little bit of spin? But needless to say it's pressure and it's the fact that it might spin and it might not, up, down, backwards, left, right, faster, slower with or without drift there's an inevitability about it!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah you need some good food down your neck to help that along, that was the poxy bloke dropping the bricks on your hand wasn't it - gutted! Hope it gets better quick.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;360435 said:
Sadspinner, those british pathe films you unearthed could be critical. The first ashes test 1930. The players have black arm bands. Grimmett declared he was going to bowl his new invention in that test. He demonstrated his mystery ball to the press a week before. Mailley, a great legspinner himself, saw the demo and said Grimmett had discovered a new way to bowl spin.

Grimmett gets 3 wickets in 4 balls using his new ball. The footage shows Woolley bamboozled by a grimmett mystery ball, Hendren was bowled and the veteran batsman declared the ball that dismissed him was "a new one to me".

The events caused a sensation and you can read some of the press reports online. This was ten years before he first bowled the backspinning flipper. That was first bowled in 1940, but I have plenty of evidence he was bowling other "flippers" as early as 1930.
Click to expand...

I don't know whether we've discussed this before, but what you're saying is that Grimmett developed his Top-Spinning Flipper prior to the back-spinning Flipper?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

But there are positives as I wrote on the Blog today -

So last night still under the influence of the local anaesthetic I made the quick entry regarding my finger half expecting to then be in pain all night and the best part of the day. It’s turned out to be as I expected a dull tender feeling rather than pain, but it’s obvious that given the choice as I have you wouldn’t want to bowl in the next few days and I certainly don’t fancy the prospects of catching a ball or diving around on the floor using my hands to break my fall, so I wont be doing much of that over the next couple of weekends. The upside of the whole thing is twofold.

1. It gives my elbow (Medial Epicondylitis) a chance to recover completely and
2. I’ve found in the past that if I come away from trying something too much I get in a rut and don’t progress. If I’m then taken away from it (Practicing) I come back to it with a fresh approach and often make massive leaps and bounds.

So it’ll be good to do that and just see if it works out in practice rather than as an anecdotal observation.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;360441 said:
I don't know whether we've discussed this before, but what you're saying is that Grimmett developed his Top-Spinning Flipper prior to the back-spinning Flipper?
Click to expand...

Yeah that is right. The "off-spinning flipper" was his first way to use the finger clicking flipper spin. The topspinner was his preferred way, and the backspinner was a rare variation that Dooland and Benaud took up.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

just to respond to a few of the many posts from yesterday...

1. with regards learning the top spinner first - i went to the club nets practice last night, and nobody else bothered to turn up. i guess being near the end of the season people arent practicing as much, and they are already in their respective teams, so there is no need for the networking aspect of training either. so i just bowled by myself instead for a couple of hours. i was struggling to bowl anything decent again, occasionally one would come out well, but my consistency is awful and it takes me an hour of solid bowling just to even edge close to an acceptable standard of bowling. i was using plenty of overspin again as that worked for me last practice, it wasnt last night!!

anyway, eventually i figured out my issue. its my run up. i started bowling off of two steps, with the aim of working up to the run up later as i found my consistency. i got the 2 step technique nailed, my length was awesome, 95% perfect id say. i went about 20 minutes of constant bowling without a single wayward ball on length, it was awesome!! everything was well flighted, and mostly turning. ive decided that the soft padded wicket surface doesnt help spin, the astroturf is too slippy. i actually prefer bowling on concrete. however its yet another turn challenge, if i can get the ball to turn big on rubbish surfaces, then turning on grass is going to be a doddle. the surface is meant more to give realistic bounce to pace bowlers i think, like its not enough that batsman are favoured over bowlers in cricket, pace bowlers are favoured over spinners. were fighting a losing battle here guys lol.

im now a no run up bowler though. there is just no need for it. im not bowling slowly by any means, and until such a time that i can find a comfortable run up technique im just going to do away with it. i find that bowling without the run up means i put much more effort into my follow through to compensate for the pace, and this in turn yields more spin. the run up just screws everything up, although earlier in the week i had it working perfectly. il come back to it during the winter i think when there is no cricket to be played, right now i want to get a few games before the season ends just as a taster for next year.

my line is still only about 20% accurate, its 95% consistent, but it ALWAYS goes leg side, anywhere from in line with leg to 6-12" outside. sometimes theres enough turn there to get it back, i was hitting the stumps a LOT, maybe every 6th ball. sometimes the ball is spinning like mad and just skids on, thats the surface at fault. sometimes it drifts and thats even more annoying because it ends up miles outside leg lol. any decent batsman would dispatch balls on that side unless they turn huge, so i need to sort my line out. its not as simple as re-aiming though, its an inherent flaw in my stance. i try to aim down the offside, and it still goes leg side. i square my body up, and it just goes wrong.

again though, with this method i started out with 45-60 degs of overspin with 45-30 degs of side spin respectively. that found me my consistent length and flight. from that i was then able to vary things after 15-20 mins with the same consistency. so from now on my practice sessions will begin with 20 mins of no run up top spinners. once they are working i am free to mix things up. my slider is getting better, i still cant figure out how on earth i am supposed to bowl a wrong'un, it WILL NOT come out spinning the other way, its actually incredibly frustrating, as i can bowl it in slow motion, my arm just wont adopt the position at full speed, it always wants to revert to a leg break. i guess thats better than vice versa lol. now that im not running up ive got my flipper back too. im back to where i started 4-5 weeks ago now, but with a ton more knowledge and understanding, and far improved accuracy.

2. lettuce probably doesnt qualify as a leafy green, its almost entirely water and has few nutrients. if you want a fix of vitamins and goodness then eat a bag of curly leafed Kale, or a bag of Spinach leaves. that will get you your vitamin fix. eat it raw, dont cook it or anything, youll lose all the good stuff.

3. sucks that you dislocated a finger Dave, but at least its the only one that doesnt play a part in leg spin lol. you could probably carry on with it dislocated if you wanted to, but its probably not worth the risk. if the rest gives other injuries a chance to heal and also gives you some more spare time though then it cant be worth even considering playing through it. might be worth icing it several times per day for 20 mins, should aid the recovery time.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Ah yes Spinach - you're right, I forgot about spinnach!

I think maybe with your bowling you're trying to do too much at the same time and possibly focusing on trying to to really difficult stuff at a too early stage in your career. I'd honestly leave the idea of turning the ball into the stumps from the Legside well alone for a year or two to be honest. I'd never contemplate using that as a delivery to hit the stumps unless I'd sussed that the batsman was completely inept at batting off his legs and down the legside. My experience is that even at club level most batsmen from the top order down to the bottom end of the middle order are more than enough equipped do deal with bowling in those areas and you'll be going for 4's on a very regular basis. I think a far more productive approach would be the off-stump attack method. You need to focus on your line more, by the sounds of it and maybe in the short term at the expense of some of your spin/deviation? All your fielders are going to be over on that side generally and if the line and length are good make sure that you show the bat that you can turn the ball away from the edge and you'll probably then see some respect given, it's just a case then of varying your speed, flight and turn and popping in the odd variation (Slider/Top-Spinner) to keep the B*****d on his toes and let him know who the boss is. I maintain that if you can do this and do it well you'll get your wickets by the bag full and this is without turning it big. Once you've got that nailed do as I'm doing - work on getting your Biggun using the same line - so your always on the stumps and if it does turn big it's good because that then show you've got potential to turn in from the legside, so then if one does stray down the legside, the bat would be in two minds as to whether it's intentional and therefore going to turn in big and may be more inclined to defend the ball rather than hit it for 4 or 6 out to deep square leg? I think with your 1 in 6 success rate that you've currently got a Legside approach will be fatal and see you taken off bowling duties within a couple of overs?

Boris - If you're reading this what do you reckon?

With regards your run in, I'd try and adapt it to the Warnesque approach, 4 or 5 regular walking steps into the 'Explosion' through the crease phase, I'm assuming that when you say Run in you mean a vigorous faster trot in rather than a few steps and the explosive bit?

I'll try the icing thing as well cheers.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;360104 said:
Ah yes Spinach - you're right, I forgot about spinnach!

I think maybe with your bowling you're trying to do too much at the same time and possibly focusing on trying to to really difficult stuff at a too early stage in your career. I'd honestly leave the idea of turning the ball into the stumps from the Legside well alone for a year or two to be honest. I'd never contemplate using that as a delivery to hit the stumps unless I'd sussed that the batsman was completely inept at batting off his legs and down the legside. My experience is that even at club level most batsmen from the top order down to the bottom end of the middle order are more than enough equipped do deal with bowling in those areas and you'll be going for 4's on a very regular basis. I think a far more productive approach would be the off-stump attack method. You need to focus on your line more, by the sounds of it and maybe in the short term at the expense of some of your spin/deviation? All your fielders are going to be over on that side generally and if the line and length are good make sure that you show the bat that you can turn the ball away from the edge and you'll probably then see some respect given, it's just a case then of varying your speed, flight and turn and popping in the odd variation (Slider/Top-Spinner) to keep the B*****d on his toes and let him know who the boss is. I maintain that if you can do this and do it well you'll get your wickets by the bag full and this is without turning it big. Once you've got that nailed do as I'm doing - work on getting your Biggun using the same line - so your always on the stumps and if it does turn big it's good because that then show you've got potential to turn in from the legside, so then if one does stray down the legside, the bat would be in two minds as to whether it's intentional and therefore going to turn in big and may be more inclined to defend the ball rather than hit it for 4 or 6 out to deep square leg? I think with your 1 in 6 success rate that you've currently got a Legside approach will be fatal and see you taken off bowling duties within a couple of overs?

With regards your run in, I'd try and adapt it to the Warnesque approach, 4 or 5 regular walking steps into the 'Explosion' through the crease phase, I'm assuming that when you say Run in you mean a vigorous faster trot in rather than a few steps and the explosive bit?

I'll try the icing thing as well cheers.
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the leg side line isnt intentional, i know i shouldnt be bowling out there, i just cant get the ball to go off side lol. when it does its usually massively overcompensated and ends up 2 feet outside off! it needs work for sure, but the length is pretty much there now.

my "run in" at present is literally 2 large normal paced walking strides from standing, then explode through the action into one overstep after release as i pivot.

the run in ive been using that doesnt work varies from 3-4 walking steps, a couple of jogged steps, a little "bounce" into my delivery stride, deliver the ball, and the momentum would take me into 2-3 more steps after release.

the run in that worked best, but still wasnt consistent was similar, but i stepped into my delivery stride VERY flat, the little "bounce" ive somehow acquired is the major issue i think. but this run in lost all its momentum from the flat final stride, and is no different to me just taking my 2 steps from standing, so i scrapped the run up completely.

i probably am trying to do too much too soon, which is why im simplifying things again. ive got all winter to slowly develop so i need to stop getting excited every time i do something right and then trying to take 10 steps forwards. because it always ends up in going 11 steps back a week later lol.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;360443 said:
Yeah that is right. The "off-spinning flipper" was his first way to use the finger clicking flipper spin. The topspinner was his preferred way, and the backspinner was a rare variation that Dooland and Benaud took up.
Click to expand...

I think that was the impression I was getting backed up by the image of the grip in the 1930's book 'Taking Wickets'.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Jim2109;360099 said:
just to respond to a few of the many posts from yesterday...

1. with regards learning the top spinner first - i went to the club nets practice last night, and nobody else bothered to turn up. i guess being near the end of the season people arent practicing as much, and they are already in their respective teams, so there is no need for the networking aspect of training either. so i just bowled by myself instead for a couple of hours. i was struggling to bowl anything decent again, occasionally one would come out well, but my consistency is awful and it takes me an hour of solid bowling just to even edge close to an acceptable standard of bowling. i was using plenty of overspin again as that worked for me last practice, it wasnt last night!!

anyway, eventually i figured out my issue. its my run up. i started bowling off of two steps, with the aim of working up to the run up later as i found my consistency. i got the 2 step technique nailed, my length was awesome, 95% perfect id say. i went about 20 minutes of constant bowling without a single wayward ball on length, it was awesome!! everything was well flighted, and mostly turning. ive decided that the soft padded wicket surface doesnt help spin, the astroturf is too slippy. i actually prefer bowling on concrete. however its yet another turn challenge, if i can get the ball to turn big on rubbish surfaces, then turning on grass is going to be a doddle. the surface is meant more to give realistic bounce to pace bowlers i think, like its not enough that batsman are favoured over bowlers in cricket, pace bowlers are favoured over spinners. were fighting a losing battle here guys lol.

im now a no run up bowler though. there is just no need for it. im not bowling slowly by any means, and until such a time that i can find a comfortable run up technique im just going to do away with it. i find that bowling without the run up means i put much more effort into my follow through to compensate for the pace, and this in turn yields more spin. the run up just screws everything up, although earlier in the week i had it working perfectly. il come back to it during the winter i think when there is no cricket to be played, right now i want to get a few games before the season ends just as a taster for next year.

my line is still only about 20% accurate, its 95% consistent, but it ALWAYS goes leg side, anywhere from in line with leg to 6-12" outside. sometimes theres enough turn there to get it back, i was hitting the stumps a LOT, maybe every 6th ball. sometimes the ball is spinning like mad and just skids on, thats the surface at fault. sometimes it drifts and thats even more annoying because it ends up miles outside leg lol. any decent batsman would dispatch balls on that side unless they turn huge, so i need to sort my line out. its not as simple as re-aiming though, its an inherent flaw in my stance. i try to aim down the offside, and it still goes leg side. i square my body up, and it just goes wrong.

again though, with this method i started out with 45-60 degs of overspin with 45-30 degs of side spin respectively. that found me my consistent length and flight. from that i was then able to vary things after 15-20 mins with the same consistency. so from now on my practice sessions will begin with 20 mins of no run up top spinners. once they are working i am free to mix things up. my slider is getting better, i still cant figure out how on earth i am supposed to bowl a wrong'un, it WILL NOT come out spinning the other way, its actually incredibly frustrating, as i can bowl it in slow motion, my arm just wont adopt the position at full speed, it always wants to revert to a leg break. i guess thats better than vice versa lol. now that im not running up ive got my flipper back too. im back to where i started 4-5 weeks ago now, but with a ton more knowledge and understanding, and far improved accuracy.

2. lettuce probably doesnt qualify as a leafy green, its almost entirely water and has few nutrients. if you want a fix of vitamins and goodness then eat a bag of curly leafed Kale, or a bag of Spinach leaves. that will get you your vitamin fix. eat it raw, dont cook it or anything, youll lose all the good stuff.

3. sucks that you dislocated a finger Dave, but at least its the only one that doesnt play a part in leg spin lol. you could probably carry on with it dislocated if you wanted to, but its probably not worth the risk. if the rest gives other injuries a chance to heal and also gives you some more spare time though then it cant be worth even considering playing through it. might be worth icing it several times per day for 20 mins, should aid the recovery time.
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One thing that I realised about my own action when I had a leg side problem was how my front leg had a big part to play in the issue. Firstly it was bending in my delivery stride which made it difficult to stay upright and controlled in the delivery and the other was that the delivery stride was too long making it hard to pivot over and around the front leg and again this made it very difficult to stay upright. Basically these faults made me fall over to the left in the delivery.

Another issue I had was that when you are trying to spin in hard me momentum was taking my body in the direction I was trying to spin the ball so to the left again and not forward towards the batsman as it should be. So for me the issue was caused by me falling to the left at delivery due to a few technical flaws in my action which I seem to have gotten rid of. I was totally unaware that I had these faults and so I'd say getting someone to have a look at you who knows what to look for is really important. Also I bowled with these problems for ages and found them really hard work get rid of so if you do have something similar to this the quicker you identify them the better.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

is this "off-spinning flipper" the same as your gipper? do you get much success with it and doesn't if hurt like hell to bowl. it looks like it should?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Video's the answer get someone to video you Jim and yeah you've got to be patient, it's taken me three years to get where I am at the minute and I'm still not convinced my bowling figures are purely down to skill - more likely a lucky run of crap batsmen!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

im trying to learn an off-spinning flipper. i cant figure out the round-the-loop wrong'un at all, my arm just wont go there yet, il have to keep with that for the long term, keep bowling toppers and try to just move my wrist around that little bit extra. that might take years though, il just have to stick at it.

the flipped off break seems like the easy way to have a wrong'un in my armoury in the shorter term, also i can potentially have full control of the spin angle from 100% overspin round to 100% backspin, meaning i can bowl a wrong'un in every possible guise from big turning to big bouncing to skidding through. it makes more sense to me to have a delivery like that at club level than a carefully disguised round-the-loop version. how regularly do you face a batsman that knows your game well enough to be confident judging deliveries out of your hand? id imagine most batsman are completely baffled by EVERY delivery, even the "easy" to read leg break lol. unless you bowl a long spell against them and they get settled i doubt any batsman at club level would learn a leg spinners game to the point he could pick the rather different wrist angle as an off break. even if they spotted the variation, theyd have no idea what it was going to do.

the only real issue im having is that the ball comes out slightly angled off the seam because of the nature of my action. its got awesome revs, perfect seam balance, its just that the seam doesnt touch the floor! it still turns back in about 6" off of the side of the ball, if i could land it on the seam it should turn huge.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I like this point from Paulinho......

"Another issue I had was that when you are trying to spin it hard my momentum was taking my body in the direction I was trying to spin the ball so to the left again and not forward towards the batsman as it should be".

I myself can't bowl round arm and have a very high and straight arm action and this may be instrumental in me being able to bowl big Wrong Uns whilst at the same work against me in my attempts at bowling the Big Leg Break, but that's then possibly off-set by the fact that I have superb accuracy line-wise.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Paulinho;360550 said:
is this "off-spinning flipper" the same as your gipper? do you get much success with it and doesn't if hurt like hell to bowl. it looks like it should?
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The 'Gipper' as I named it is actually one of Grimmetts obscure balls described in his book 'Taking Wickets' from 1930. Grimmett named it the 'Wrong wrong un' and as the name suggests it looks like a wrong un but instead of spinning from off to leg its breaks like a Leg Break. Grimmett gave up it as far as we can make out, but I persevered with it ignorant of the fact that anyone had ever bowled a ball like it. The conclusion is much the same as any variation it's good very slow and loopy, but if It's pitched up the full 22 yards at speed it loses some of it's turn off the wicket. It's not easy to bowl either and like my other flippers it's a bit flat in flight so I don't use it that much.

Whereas your Off-spinning Flipper Grimmetts first incarnation of the Flipper that's bowl out of the front of the hand so it looks like Leg Break, but instead of spinning the ball in the wrist spinners usual manner using the 3rd finger and wrist the spin is imparted using the click of the fingers. See - YouTube - Clarrie Grimmett Flipper Wrist spin bowling A of all of the Flipper variations I've found this to be the hardest to bowl because the wrist has to be facing forwards and the flick forcing the ball out of the front of the hand with off-spin. It's very difficult but then too are all of the Flipper variations.


I have to say to anyone reading this that if you're under 16 you're advised not to even attempt the bog standard Flipper as it stresses your body in way that can cause long term problems.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Another little thing to always remember when you're a wristy and this is recognised by loads of people at club level including the mycoach bloke David Hinchcliffe is that 'S**t bowling takes wickets'. As long as you pitch it up there and flight it in a lot of club batsmen see this as an excuse to take you to the cleaners and suddenly think they're Matthew Hayden or Sanath Jayasuria and invariably make a fatal mistake and get themselves out. So in a way you shouldn't get too hung up if things are not going perfectly for you as long as some of your bowling is coming together things will happen. I normally bowl in tandem with a bloke who gets the Yips and his bowling goes to pieces, but he takes wickets and he gets his overs every week yet I think he'd readily admit that his accuracy isn't that brilliant some days and that he's expensive as a bowler, but he turns the ball a country mile from out-side Leg (When he gets it right) and brings it back in on the stumps or forces a fatal mistake.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Jim2109;360604 said:
im trying to learn an off-spinning flipper. i cant figure out the round-the-loop wrong'un at all, my arm just wont go there yet, il have to keep with that for the long term, keep bowling toppers and try to just move my wrist around that little bit extra. that might take years though, il just have to stick at it.

the flipped off break seems like the easy way to have a wrong'un in my armoury in the shorter term, also i can potentially have full control of the spin angle from 100% overspin round to 100% backspin, meaning i can bowl a wrong'un in every possible guise from big turning to big bouncing to skidding through. it makes more sense to me to have a delivery like that at club level than a carefully disguised round-the-loop version. how regularly do you face a batsman that knows your game well enough to be confident judging deliveries out of your hand? id imagine most batsman are completely baffled by EVERY delivery, even the "easy" to read leg break lol. unless you bowl a long spell against them and they get settled i doubt any batsman at club level would learn a leg spinners game to the point he could pick the rather different wrist angle as an off break. even if they spotted the variation, theyd have no idea what it was going to do.

the only real issue im having is that the ball comes out slightly angled off the seam because of the nature of my action. its got awesome revs, perfect seam balance, its just that the seam doesnt touch the floor! it still turns back in about 6" off of the side of the ball, if i could land it on the seam it should turn huge.
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The point about batsmen reading the ball out of the hand - I honestly think that maybe 1 in 100 might have a crack at it, but the other 99 wouldn't have a clue as to what you're bowling, they wouldn't even know a wrong un from an Elephant let alone tell a Wrong Un from a Top-Spinner!

If you can bowl the bog standard Flipper I'd honestly try and bowl the Top-Spinning flipper. This is a lovely looking ball and one that I can bowl very accurately and with pace, it dips nice and swings off the seam as well, but the bit you may be interested in is that you only have to vary the angle of the wrist and it'll turn like a small wrong un so might well be worth a look at. It's a killer to learn and you have to 'Break your wrist in' as such and endure some real pain for some weeks as your muscles and tendons toughen up to enable you to bowl it. It helps if before you start to throw it over the 22 yards you spin the ball like it all the time when your standing around a la Philpotts advice, that way you ease into it and the trauma of bowling it to the wrist is lessened.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;360109 said:
I like this point from Paulinho......

"Another issue I had was that when you are trying to spin it hard my momentum was taking my body in the direction I was trying to spin the ball so to the left again and not forward towards the batsman as it should be".

I myself can't bowl round arm and have a very high and straight arm action and this may be instrumental in me being able to bowl big Wrong Uns whilst at the same work against me in my attempts at bowling the Big Leg Break, but that's then possibly off-set by the fact that I have superb accuracy line-wise.
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I’ve read that one of the big reasons the googly can for some be easier to bowl accurately is that the arm is for most people higher and comes down straighter taking the body with it and all the momentum is in the direction of the target. Couple that with the fact that anatomically the googly is a far more natural position for the wrist to take and that you’d probably get better results faster from bowling them I’m surprised more people don’t completely loose their leg breaks when learning to bowl the wrong’un.

Just compare Mushtaq Ahmed and Anil Kumble (great googly bowlers, really high arms) with Warne and McGill (massive ripping leg breaks round arm by comparison)

I don't think I could bowl a big leg break without going a little round arm or a wrongun without going higher
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;360607 said:
The point about batsmen reading the ball out of the hand - I honestly think that maybe 1 in 100 might have a crack at it, but the other 99 wouldn't have a clue as to what you're bowling, they wouldn't even know a wrong un from an Elephant let alone tell a Wrong Un from a Top-Spinner!

If you can bowl the bog standard Flipper I'd honestly try and bowl the Top-Spinning flipper. This is a lovely looking ball and one that I can bowl very accurately and with pace, it dips nice and swings off the seam as well, but the bit you may be interested in is that you only have to vary the angle of the wrist and it'll turn like a small wrong un so might well be worth a look at. It's a killer to learn and you have to 'Break your wrist in' as such and endure some real pain for some weeks as your muscles and tendons toughen up to enable you to bowl it. It helps if before you start to throw it over the 22 yards you spin the ball like it all the time when your standing around a la Philpotts advice, that way you ease into it and the trauma of bowling it to the wrist is lessened.
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ive been practicing my flipper action for as long as ive been practicing my leg break action (e.g. about 3 years before i even bowled a delivery, just messing around spinning a cricket ball between my hands). actually delivering it is harder, but i can always get it to spin, accuracy is the major concern for my normal flipper. turning the normal flipper inwards creates a back spinning off break, which is fairly easy to do. the top spinning variation is what ive been working on, because the seam is easier to present upright, the back spinning version i find the seam is angled as i described above. it just needs a ton of practice, as with everything!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

There in lies a dilemma, I reckon I'll stick to my straight arm with good accuracy and possibly never have a Killer big Leg Break, as I keep saying a small to decent Leg Break suffices. I wonder if there's anyone that would advocate losing your leg break temporarily for a year or two like I did just in order to fully learn the wrong un?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svjEQWOIAiA
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Jim2109;360604 said:
im trying to learn an off-spinning flipper. i cant figure out the round-the-loop wrong'un at all, my arm just wont go there yet, il have to keep with that for the long term, keep bowling toppers and try to just move my wrist around that little bit extra. that might take years though, il just have to stick at it.
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You'll have to let us know how you get on with this, I'll be interested to know how you get on.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;360129 said:
There in lies a dilemma, I reckon I'll stick to my straight arm with good accuracy and possibly never have a Killer big Leg Break, as I keep saying a small to decent Leg Break suffices. I wonder if there's anyone that would advocate losing your leg break temporarily for a year or two like I did just in order to fully learn the wrong un?

YouTube - Big Wrong Un
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kumble only had a small leg break and a great googly and took 619 test wickets

warne had no googly to speak of and a massive leg break and took 708

so not much in it really, I guess making the best of what you have is the key.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;360607 said:
The point about batsmen reading the ball out of the hand - I honestly think that maybe 1 in 100 might have a crack at it, but the other 99 wouldn't have a clue as to what you're bowling, they wouldn't even know a wrong un from an Elephant let alone tell a Wrong Un from a Top-Spinner!

If you can bowl the bog standard Flipper I'd honestly try and bowl the Top-Spinning flipper. This is a lovely looking ball and one that I can bowl very accurately and with pace, it dips nice and swings off the seam as well, but the bit you may be interested in is that you only have to vary the angle of the wrist and it'll turn like a small wrong un so might well be worth a look at. It's a killer to learn and you have to 'Break your wrist in' as such and endure some real pain for some weeks as your muscles and tendons toughen up to enable you to bowl it. It helps if before you start to throw it over the 22 yards you spin the ball like it all the time when your standing around a la Philpotts advice, that way you ease into it and the trauma of bowling it to the wrist is lessened.
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just the other day I was talking to a really experienced batsman and told him I thought that my leg break and wrong'un were very obviously different and easy to pick. basically the advice I got was that batsmen watch the ball and the poisition of my wrist or the high of my arm is something that most (not all) wouldn't have time to notice. at higher levels then maybe some but even then not all notice these things.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;360129 said:
There in lies a dilemma, I reckon I'll stick to my straight arm with good accuracy and possibly never have a Killer big Leg Break, as I keep saying a small to decent Leg Break suffices. I wonder if there's anyone that would advocate losing your leg break temporarily for a year or two like I did just in order to fully learn the wrong un?

YouTube - Big Wrong Un
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Dave, going more roundarm during your winter training might be a good idea for you.
Roundarm can also give the topspinner extra pace off the pitch, remember Grimmetts "ducks and drakes" analogy?
Bradman says in " Art of cricket" that Grimmetts incredible topspinner was partly the result of the roundarm Grimmett employed.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yep that's my experience, I was speaking to a bloke in my team who's played cricket all his life 30 + years and he's one of our old first team bats and he was saying he didn't have a clue what I was doing and it was really difficult to pick me out of the hand. That is in part due to the fact that 99% of the time they'd only ever be looking at either off-spin (Finger spinners) or Leg-spin (Leg Breaks) you've got remember if it hadn't been for Warne (Me included) very few of the people that are bowling now would never have bowled spin and prior to Warne the chances of you coming across a spinner that bowled more than either Leg Breaks or Off-spin (Finger spin) were less than finding a colony of Dodo's living in a house at the end of your street. Even now there are so few people that bowl wrist spin and those that do rarely get beyond bowling a Leg Break, so how is a batsman ever going to learn through experience what the variations look like? It just doesn't happen.

Every thing is stacked in our favour, all you've got to do is learn to bowl a very good leg break and I'm talking line and length primarily and then maybe 2 variations and I seriously believe you're looking at potentially being the best wicket taker in your team. The reason it doesn't happen is that blokes haven't got the patience and the commitment to put in the hours and the years to get it right and they're cast aside by their captain/team in the process of learning their trade as such. That's why it's essential to take on board that you have got to go it alone in most cases, bowl on your own till you've got your leg break together and then get a spell and prove yourself. If it don't happen it's back to the drawing board!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I had a go a couple of days ago just as an experiment and it just felt really odd and I lost my line, but you're probably right, maybe I should give it a go over the winter and see how it works out? As you say Grimmetts skimming stones theory testifies to it's potential.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

If a good batsman faces a legspinner enough they will learn to pick the flipper out of the hand. Grimmett knew this and was very secretive with what he was up to.
What always amazed me about Warne was how much he could spin the ball using both conventional legspin as well as the completely different method used to finger click a flipper. He was the best at both styles.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;360140 said:
I had a go a couple of days ago just as an experiment and it just felt really odd and I lost my line, but you're probably right, maybe I should give it a go over the winter and see how it works out? As you say Grimmetts skimming stones theory testifies to it's potential.
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Accuracy will suffer at first, maybe go a bit more roundarm just slowly and slightly to start with. You still have to reach up more for the wrongun but I prefer to bowl the topspinner fairly roundarm as well.

It may not work for you but you can drop the idea over the winter and no harm done.

Your present technique works for you, and I am always telling blokes to go more roundarm, so I am not telling you need to do it , just try it in the off season maybe?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;360618 said:
If a good batsman faces a legspinner enough they will learn to pick the flipper out of the hand. Grimmett knew this and was very secretive with what he was up to.
What always amazed me about Warne was how much he could spin the ball using both conventional legspin as well as the completely different method used to finger click a flipper. He was the best at both styles.
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Honestly Macca if you talk to club cricketers over here they've got no concept of what's going on when they're facing a spin bowler and the same applies to the blokes that bowl spin. I think at club level the coaching just isn't up to it, the more experienced coaches and bowlers will know about Leg Breaks, Top-Spinners and Wrong Uns, but it's an exceptionally rare day when you sit down with a club player be it a batsman or a bowler who will know what a Flipper is and be able to explain it let alone describe it and recognise it coming out of the hand!

Macca do you know how much training Warne would have done during the height of his career?
 
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