Wrist Spin Bowling

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Good work by the young'un there. My son's lost it completely at the moment, for some reason he's decided to bowl seam up and round arm like Malinga and he rarely gets the ball on the wicket yet up till yesterday he's refused to listen to my advice and gets stroppy when I try and help him. But last night he spent half hour listening and trying to correct it and could see that there was an improvement, so hopefully he'll see the light?

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Hope your fingers gundalf and dave are getting better slowly. Threw some balls today after an abscence of 2 weeks. Started more vertical, but they came out mainly as topspinners and small legbreaks. Then I resorted to my usual grimmett like low arm deliveries and tried hard to replicate the big legbreak that I bowl underarm with the backspinning element to my round arm deliveries. Some turned nicely pitching outside leg stump or middle at a good length and many went across the stumps past offstump. Others were delivered in the same way and ended just wide of the leg stump. But one thing that was obvious was that they must all have had an element of backspin as the majority kept lower.

Another thing I noticed for the first time was that some deliveries made a whizzing sound. I suspect it could have been from the balls being rather old, tatty and rough, with very little seam left on them. I also surmise that I get the majority of spin from my shoulder, elbow and body movements, with a smaller contribution from the wrist and even less from my middle finger. I might also have gotten some drift towards legstump. I think it might be from the high humidity that was around 85% ( even though I have never read it affects drift). There was a very light breeze that might have assisted the leg break minimally. I als tried changing the wrist position minimally, and found that between my biggest leg break and the backspinner the rotation of the wrist is really minimal say 5-10 degrees.

I placed a long strip of metal about 4 feet in front of the batting crease and two strips of tape in line with the off stump and legstump. Length was quite good and line reasonable with a few wides down leg side expecting the ball to do a miracle and come back. All in all was very happy with the 2 hours spent, and as usual as is always in my case, my best session is the one after a long time without practicing. I image that when I practice more often I try to do something different every ball and try ti tinker too much with different facets of my action.

I practice on a tennis court. I know that I can look it up, but I deliver from the midcourt line and image that the batsmans crease is the service line of the other side. I then set the stumps 1.2 metres further behind that service line. Do you think the distances are right? I know I am hopeless at explaining, so bear with me.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

like you say the smaller leg break often carries better and just beats the bat putting doubt in the batmans mind where as the bigger leg break bowled too quickly can pop up and be pullable if you get it even a little short.

From my personal experience I have found that one of the things playing on a wrist spinners mind is pace and mostly lack of it. Listening to Warne talking about Swann in the ashes he said he was surprised that Swann was able to spin the ball so much at the pace he bowls which is in the high 50's 60mph area.

Warne who could spin big as you all know said that between 47 and 50mph was his idea pace for maximum spin or turn of the pitch anyway, but stressed that it's different for everyone.

I'm definitely guilty of trying to bowl too fast for fear of getting smacked around and sacrificing spin but as you probably all know there is a fine line between being a pie chucker and bowling flat flightless deliveries that don't trouble the batsman at all. That said I found yesterday that the big leg break that we talked about (bowled into the body) can produce really dramatic turn when bowled flat and with a bit more pace.

I reckon I bowl between really slow 35mph and 45mph which I've been measured at. I might be faster but I reckon generally 40mph - ish? Varying the speed's important rather than bowling fast all the time. Watching Swann though - it's obvious that he doesn't get a lot of turn, but I'd imagine with the limitations on fingers spinners options they can't weave the web of trickery that we do and therefore use slower balls in the same way?

 

[Paulinho]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah this is good but I had to laugh at Jenner flicking the ball from one hand to the other and barely making it spin! I'll post up some vids soon in conjunction with my new blogs demonstrating the flick exercises that Philpott recommend and the Flippers including the Mystery ball.

I've been reading a few of the threads on here talking about the amount of revs put on the ball and how important this may or may not be. over the the weekend (game called off for rain) I've been trying to video myself with mixed results but have found something that is obvious but probably quite important to note. basically however many revs I manage to to get on the ball landing it on the seam appeards to be the main factor in achieving turn. the more revs the better of course but a vertical seam help turn and drift and dip far more it would appear.

the other thing that I noticed from watching the 20-20 finals was how many young leg spinners there are at county level.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Dave, how do you bowl your wrong'uns so well? its not a delivery ive put any significant time into, ive tried to bowl maybe 20 in total out of probably 3-4000 balls so far! i had a go for a few minutes yesterday as things were going well with my leg breaks, and i just cant do it. yet!

i can picture exactly what i want to do, exactly how my arm should move, my follow through, etc. i can do a slow motion walk through of it without releasing the ball, all the angles and everything look good. i can bowl one straight into the side of the net, and the ball looks ok. yet as soon as i release one down the wicket it ends up a small leg break!

ive studied the round the loop theory, etc in depth, my problem isnt in my head in terms of lack of knowledge or thought about the technique. my problem is that i just cant get the ball to come out spinning in the direction im aiming for! any thoughts about how you first got yours working? you spin the ball more in the wrong direction than many of the pros, so i figure you must be doing something that they arent lol.

ive tried it straight arm, bent arm, vertical arm, round arm, all sorts of wrist angles. none feel any better than the others or have any improvement on the end result. im almost tempted to develop my flipper into a wrong'un lol, since it can produce near enough the same revolutions as my leg break/top-spinner. obviously it would be pickable though. so id like to try and get a proper wrong'un working, even if its really small. i can work on turn, but at present i cant even present the ball in an off spinning manner!

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I've just been ranting on another forum about the negative attitudes of people towards spinners and how that they threaten the existence of spin bowling in cricket, so it's good to come over to here and hear some good news that there are spinners coming up through the ranks - is it County T-20? Give us a few names?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Mate - you've got to be careful with the Wrong Un otherwise you'll end up with the dreaded 'Googly Syndrome'. I read recently somewhere (it was either Ashley Mallett or CV Grimmett) that bowling out of the back of your hand as you do with the wrong un is a far more natural way. As we all know bowling the Leg Break is a task and half to do well, but given the effort, practice and time you 'Wire' your brain so that what is a wholly un-natural way to throw a ball eventually becomes a technique that you can master. What I did was learn a very modest leg-break and then I decided that I'd learn the Wrong Un because I could see the value of it. So I committed myself to doing it and over a period of about 2 - 3 months I did nothing but bowl the wrong un and it worked. 3 months later I could bowl a killer wrong un that turned and fizzed like mad. Thing was I then tried to bowl a Leg Break and couldn't. No matter what I did the ball turned from Off to Leg. I'd 100% lost my leg break.

This is from another of my blogs - this one was a diary of how to rectify the 'Googly Syndrome' Wrist Spin Bowling: The Googly Syndrome

It took me 8 months of not bowling anything but leg breaks to get my Leg Break back. I honestly don't know what to suggest as a way of quickly acquiring the Wrong Un without screwing up your Leg Break. Philpott says to try it every so often. Maybe have an over of it every now and then, but honestly straight away check your Leg Breaks okay before you pack up. I bowl a wrong un every 10 balls I reckon and have an over every now and then.

I actually bowl it in 2 ways. The Big Flick method which gives it ridiculous amounts of turn off the wicket and this comes about usually by bowling what feels like a Top Spinner but with the big flick. But the more accurate version is more like a very loose grip in the hand but with the 3rd finger planted on the seam and it's just bowled out of the twisted up-side down wrist, when it goes you can feel it come off the 3rd finger like a 'Beaut' and it spins so well. Wish I could bowl the Leg Break with such ease and readily achieved spin. Maybe you have to go through that agony of losing your leggie and re-learning it in order to get a Killer Wrong Un?

With regards the arm definitely vertical 100%

 

[Paulinho]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Somerset has Max Waller, Durham Scott Borthwick and Will Beer at Sussex.

These are three that I've seen bowl recently and they have all taken wickets. none appear to be big turners of the ball with the exception of bothwick possibly and they all use the googly a lot. This may be because they were all in limited overs games though and they are all very young. Bothwick isn't 19 yet not sure about the other two.

Of course there is also Rashid at Yorkshire and Mark Lawson who was at Yorkshire but moved to Derbyshire I think.

I'm sure they have all worked with Terry Jenner’s at the ECB.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

my son and his mates have worn a cricket ball out in three days at school! I could not believe the state of the ball after they had finished with it.

He has taken two wickets with his flipper from two attempts, but i dont want him to bowl a flipper yet.

I got him to bowl his flipper in the nets yesterday and it is going ok considering how little time we spend on that particular ball.

He got me a few times with his topspinner yesterday. I played for the break and got done every time.

Just read this again. If my kids took a cricket ball to school there'd be hell to pay what with all the mamby pamby H&S rubbish that goes on these days, I don't think they're even allowed to have tennis balls let along the plastic training balls!

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Does anyone know how much training Warne used to do at the height of his career, is it hours and hours per day or was it hours per week? Someone a while back suggested that he put a lot of time in training, I'd like to know the details.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Having read Paulhino's and Jim's entries today they gave me some ideas to work with tonight during my 90 minutes practice and I've come up with a theory and a right result. Have a look at this - Wrist Spin Bowling: The Biggun #2

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Shaun Graf was Warnes club captain and he reckons it might have been the narrowness of the St Kilda nets that helped hone Warnes accurracy!

Hey dave I will send some grimmett stuff in the post.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Mate - you've got to be careful with the Wrong Un otherwise you'll end up with the dreaded 'Googly Syndrome'. I read recently somewhere (it was either Ashley Mallett or CV Grimmett) that bowling out of the back of your hand as you do with the wrong un is a far more natural way. As we all know bowling the Leg Break is a task and half to do well, but given the effort, practice and time you 'Wire' your brain so that what is a wholly un-natural way to throw a ball eventually becomes a technique that you can master. What I did was learn a very modest leg-break and then I decided that I'd learn the Wrong Un because I could see the value of it. So I committed myself to doing it and over a period of about 2 - 3 months I did nothing but bowl the wrong un and it worked. 3 months later I could bowl a killer wrong un that turned and fizzed like mad. Thing was I then tried to bowl a Leg Break and couldn't. No matter what I did the ball turned from Off to Leg. I'd 100% lost my leg break.

This is from another of my blogs - this one was a diary of how to rectify the 'Googly Syndrome' Wrist Spin Bowling: The Googly Syndrome

It took me 8 months of not bowling anything but leg breaks to get my Leg Break back. I honestly don't know what to suggest as a way of quickly acquiring the Wrong Un without screwing up your Leg Break. Philpott says to try it every so often. Maybe have an over of it every now and then, but honestly straight away check your Leg Breaks okay before you pack up. I bowl a wrong un every 10 balls I reckon and have an over every now and then.

I actually bowl it in 2 ways. The Big Flick method which gives it ridiculous amounts of turn off the wicket and this comes about usually by bowling what feels like a Top Spinner but with the big flick. But the more accurate version is more like a very loose grip in the hand but with the 3rd finger planted on the seam and it's just bowled out of the twisted up-side down wrist, when it goes you can feel it come off the 3rd finger like a 'Beaut' and it spins so well. Wish I could bowl the Leg Break with such ease and readily achieved spin. Maybe you have to go through that agony of losing your leggie and re-learning it in order to get a Killer Wrong Un?

With regards the arm definitely vertical 100%

ive read most of your blog in great depth, and read about your struggles with the googly syndrome. so its something i definitely dont want to replicate. thats why im seriously limiting the practice i put in on my variations. even top spinners and back spinners, they might be the same sort of wrist action, but it wont be hard for all my deliveries to end up as top spinners if i overdo it!

so im trying to learn the wrong'un for maybe 10 deliveries in every 200-300. in other words an over or 2 every individual practice session (i dont use anything in the nets to a batsman until it is consistent). i just cant get it to work at all. although if it took you 3 months of solid practice to get it good, that gives some reassurance, as i was kinda of just expecting it to click - the leg break, top spinner, flipper and slider all did to some extent, the ball would go in the right direction, just not work very effectively. the wrong'un just doesnt come out at all, except by accident on occasion, and im more convinced that it is drift without turn that causes the ball to move inwards, as opposed to pure turn off of the pitch.

il have to just keep throwing in occasional deliveries, il try to keep my arm more vertical and see if that helps.

how is your wrist positioned?

e.g. for a 90 degree leg break the hand starts palm facing you, fingers around horizontal, and ends palm facing batsman, fingers still around horizontal, the hand has just come over the top, the wrist has rotated anti clockwise as you look at it.

im thinking that it has to go anti clockwise on the wrong'un too, in order to impart proper spin, the fingers alone arent enough. which in my eyes means the hand has to start underneath, fingers pointing downwards, palm facing you, it then rotates anti clockwise so that the palm ends up facing sideways away from you, fingers horizontal. the problem here is that too much wrist carries the ball back around, making it a small leg break instead. i think this is the issue i have, maybe i need to think smaller and aim for something ever so slightly past a top spinner.

 

[Paulinho]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Does anyone know how much training Warne used to do at the height of his career, is it hours and hours per day or was it hours per week? Someone a while back suggested that he put a lot of time in training, I'd like to know the details.

I know that he spent a good hour with Jenner before most days of a test match working on the alignment of his body in the delivery.

When he was at the academy I think the training was six hours a day.

does anyone know were you can get a copy of the ECB wings to fly DVD it is apparently the closest thing to the art of wrist bowling in DVD form.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Jim - hold your arm out in front of you so that the palm is facing the floor and twist the whole arm anti-clockwise 180 degrees almost so your plam is facing the ceiling. You dip your shoulder more in the delivery and the ball comes out of the had in that position. I was bowling it for hours and hours and almost damaged my rotator cuff. The rotator cuff got so bad that I wasn't able to raise my arm level with my shoulder in the mornings and it was continually sore, but I am 49 so it may not affect you so badly.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

the problem ive seen with all the county leg spinners is that none of them turn the ball though! they barely bowl leg breaks, they have no more turn than an average county off spinner. they are definitely being brought up to play one day cricket, where youre not necessarily trying to take a wicket, just to confuse the batsman enough that he cant play a shot for runs. if Rashid is the best leg spinner in the UK, which has to be assumed since he is the only one even close to the England setup at present, then that doesnt bode too well for those below him, since he has minimal turn, minimal revs on the ball, but bowls a pretty good line and length. again, this is a one day thing, you need line and length to restrict runs (not to mention extras, if you turn the ball too much youll get wides lol). maybe they are capable of turning the ball more but arent allowed to do so by their captains? youd think English cricket would understand the importance of big spin better than anyone, im not sure if it is definitely the case, but id imagine Shane Warne took more wickets per match against England than against any other side. i stand to be corrected if that isnt the case. but either way, plenty of Englishmen found him unplayable.

i dont think there is a single test match leg spinner left now who really rips the ball, aside from possibly Danish Kaneria on a good day. Ajantha Mendis doesnt really count because so far as i can tell hes more of an off spinner with a ton of random variations, kinda like Murali, they are both wrist spinners though at least.

also, with regards drift and humidity. technically swing bowling shouldnt be affected by humidity, NASA scientists say that overcast conditions promoting swing is absolute nonsense and that its all in the bowlers head. ive watched enough cricket to see that the ball does appear to swing more in certain types of weather conditions, so i think that must come down to physics that is not yet understood. ive also seen the ball swing in very unlikely conditions in near-equator sunshine with no clouds in the sky, so maybe NASA are right and bowlers just get it stuck in their head that if its overcast theyll get swing, and this results in them trying harder (or maybe trying less hard and relaxing?). at the same time, if it does actually affect swing bowling then it should also affect spin bowling to some extent, the jury is out on that one.

with regards drift and dip, ive been thinking about it lately as i know bits and pieces about aerodynamics and consider myself reasonably well informed on the basics. the top spinning ball with a perfectly straight seam and 2 equally worn sides should in theory not drift, however if one side is shined for the seam bowlers then "contrast swing" (dead straight seam, one side shiny one side rough) could come into play on a small level with a spin bowler, the faster the ball is delivered the more it will move sideways, away from the smooth side. this type of swing also requires the least speed to work at its optimum, so that also helps the spin bowler! the magnus effect on the spinning ball then also comes into play and is partly why the ball dips (the ball always moves WITH the rotation). the other reason, which ive never actually read with regards spinning cricket balls but figured must be the case (it is with many other types of spinning ball, such as bowling balls), is gyroscopic effects. youve got a top spinning mass, it should want to drop out of the sky faster than gravity alone would dictate. so the more you spin the ball, the more you accentuate both of these effects!! the drift aspect is more dependant on speed than spin, although spin also stabilises the seam.

with the small leg break with plenty of overspin youve got the magnus effect giving you both dip AND drift, gyroscopic effects giving both drift and dip now as well, but then youve got conventional swing bowling which would suggest the ball should actually move WITH the seam, which would oppose the drift. i can only think that because the forward velocity of the ball is low, but the rotational velocity is high if youve ripped it, that the magnus effect outweighs everything else (and gyroscopic effects too), so the ball drifts in, and not away. it would also help to a small extent id think to have the shiny side out. this is the opposite of what youd want for conventional swing, and might negate the effects a little giving slightly more drift. im sure its negligible.

big leg break with a 90 degree seam should exhibit drift only, there are no swing effects, only magnus and gyro effects. it should in theory drift more than any other type of delivery, and as said, it shouldnt dip. HOWEVER.... on the earlier deliveries the seam is still angled forwards, meaning one side of the ball is nicely presented to the airstream and thus the air can flow around it in a more laminar fashion before seperating towards the trailing edge, whilst the seam disrupts airflow on the other side and makes it turbulent, the ensuing boundary layer keeps the airflow attached for longer so it seperates later, the resultant wake and its directiong is what causes swing. if the seam is 90 degrees then my view is that there would be equal resultant flow on either side (and a straight wake), but with lots of turbulence and early seperation, which should in theory increase the drag on the ball. increased drag means it will lose its forward velocity at a more rapid rate, so this ball should actually dip a little as well, probably not as much as the overspun deliveries. anyone else got any thoughts on this? on the other hand, youve got the bullet effect - a bullet spins to keep it airborne and straight for longer, some baseball pitchers also use the same technique (they call it a "gyroball") and it arrives at the batter much more quickly than they are expecting it to. who knows.

with backspun deliveries it should be the opposite of the top spinner, the ball should hang in the air longer as a result of both magnus and gyro effects, there may be some small contrast swing, id think most people deliver the backspinner a little flatter and faster than their other deliveries, so possibly there would be more swing on this delivery. the flatter trajectory as a function of both delivery and flight effects should make it bounce less and lose pace off the pitch (as opposed to the top spinner that bounces more and gains pace). however ive found that if you spin it hard enough you can get it to bounce higher than it should, especially if you flight it well. this only works with my slider which i believe spins far more than any of my other deliveries simply due to the nature in which it is delivered (the physical arm motion is always going to impart backspin, plus my hand and wrist are delivering as much spin as my leg break, which results in more spin overall). so when it hits the pitch it almost stops dead, stands up and its forward momentum gets transferred into upwards momentum instead, it then drops back down violently due to its steep incline. my flipper just skids through really low like it should.

 

[Paulinho]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

ive read most of your blog in great depth, and read about your struggles with the googly syndrome. so its something i definitely dont want to replicate. thats why im seriously limiting the practice i put in on my variations. even top spinners and back spinners, they might be the same sort of wrist action, but it wont be hard for all my deliveries to end up as top spinners if i overdo it!

so im trying to learn the wrong'un for maybe 10 deliveries in every 200-300. in other words an over or 2 every individual practice session (i dont use anything in the nets to a batsman until it is consistent). i just cant get it to work at all. although if it took you 3 months of solid practice to get it good, that gives some reassurance, as i was kinda of just expecting it to click - the leg break, top spinner, flipper and slider all did to some extent, the ball would go in the right direction, just not work very effectively. the wrong'un just doesnt come out at all, except by accident on occasion, and im more convinced that it is drift without turn that causes the ball to move inwards, as opposed to pure turn off of the pitch.

il have to just keep throwing in occasional deliveries, il try to keep my arm more vertical and see if that helps.

how is your wrist positioned?

e.g. for a 90 degree leg break the hand starts palm facing you, fingers around horizontal, and ends palm facing batsman, fingers still around horizontal, the hand has just come over the top, the wrist has rotated anti clockwise as you look at it.

im thinking that it has to go anti clockwise on the wrong'un too, in order to impart proper spin, the fingers alone arent enough. which in my eyes means the hand has to start underneath, fingers pointing downwards, palm facing you, it then rotates anti clockwise so that the palm ends up facing sideways away from you, fingers horizontal. the problem here is that too much wrist carries the ball back around, making it a small leg break instead. i think this is the issue i have, maybe i need to think smaller and aim for something ever so slightly past a top spinner.

Having found recently that I can bowl a big leg break by simply letting the mechanics of the grip spin the ball by going from a cocked wrist (holding the ball like you would eating an apple) to my palm down parallel with the floor fingers pointing at the batsman I thought I'd try this with the variations as well.

The wrong'un came out nicely spinning hard by using the same technique with the back of the hand down parallel with the floor (although not quite as I'd probably dislocate my shoulder doing that). The slider is like a karate chop and the top spinner being a karate chop with the thumb pointing to the floor.

At the moment these are all really exaggerated hand movements and consistency and accuracy are an issue as I’m sort of starting a fresh with this action. But it does produce massive spin which is a good place to start from.

 

[Paulinho]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Totally agree with the amount of turn I've seen from county leg spinners, but I've only ever seen them bowl in limited overs so wides are a consideration they may be doing this on purpose. I saw Rashid bowl a massive leg break that was given a wide and he didn't bowl one again.

Also I did post earlier about the vertical seam producing all the lovely effects on the ball you want like drift and dip and ultimately turn of the wicket but I should have mentioned that I’ve noted that there has to be an element of over spin to produce dip on the ball. I also mentioned earlier that there is an optimum Pace to produce all these nice things which seems a very individual thing. I said in that post that pace appears to directly correspond with the amount of revs I can produce and too many can nullify dip drift and turn. Since then I have been able to product hi revs bowling slow and vise versa but there is still for me an optimum pace. The importance of refining you action to the point where it something you don’t even think about is becoming more and more apparent to me as I think once you have gotten to this level accuracy and variation of spin become so much easier.

One last thing. I was always a little dubious about the peter philpott statement that flicking a ball from hand to hand is a leg break and bowling back to your body is a big leg break. I just always thought that the hand when bowling over arm must be doing something different and more complex. But studying slow motion images of my self and seeing how the hand ends up and them comparing those with how my hand behaves when doing the simple act of flicking from hand to hand I see they are exactly the same. A common thread in my posts seems to be stating the obvious but there I go again. Perhaps over complicating the whole thing is as dangerous as the googly syndrome to a bowlers development and should be avoided at all costs.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I like the description of your grip......... 'holding the ball like you would eating an apple'. This is exactly the grip I'm currently testing and getting all the good results from, it just goes to show that you need to play around with so many different variables until you yourself come up with something that suits you or that you're happy with. Paulinho this 'Apple Grip' you use is it fairly loose?

In fact I liked it so much I've used it in a new blog I'm putting together to replace the old blog. http://spinbowling-legbreak.blogspot.com/

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

If you turn the ball too much youll get wides lol). maybe they are capable of turning the ball more but arent allowed to do so by their captains?

Man there's so much in those 2 posts to comment on I don't think I can cope!!! Anyway, the quote above referring to County level Leg Spinners. Surely that's not the case? Your explanation suggest that if you were to pitch the ball down the middle on one of the stumps and then it was to turn that'd be a wide? That can't be surely?

 

[Paulinho]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I reckon I bowl between really slow 35mph and 45mph which I've been measured at. I might be faster but I reckon generally 40mph - ish? Varying the speed's important rather than bowling fast all the time. Watching Swann though - it's obvious that he doesn't get a lot of turn, but I'd imagine with the limitations on fingers spinners options they can't weave the web of trickery that we do and therefore use slower balls in the same way?

Using this new way of bowling (well to me anyway) I've come to realise that the pace of the ball is massively important for how much spin in put on the ball, much more so than the other ways I’ve tried. As the unfurl of the wrist and the downward motion of the hand (3rd finger especially) control the revs on the ball, seam position and pace. I’d say this way of doing it puts even more emphasis on sound basic technique in the delivery and follow through.

The faster I bowl the more revs I get but the forward momentum negates the spin and too slow not enough revs on the ball. This is all common sense I know but finding out your personal optimum pace for each variation, surface, arm position, position on the crease sounds like lots of work and lots of fun.

Maybe it’s time to become a medium pacer.

Nah just kidding!

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

No I think there's credibility in Philpotts instructions to try and spin the ball back into the body, I think that in doing so you're likely to get your wrist angle to the point that you're going to produce the 90 spinning ball with the potential to turn the most off of the wicket. It may be that you'll never spin the ball inwards, but in trying to do so what'll happen is you'll angle your wrist so much that you'll end up developing a your own variation of the Big Leg Break. Everyone acknowledges that it takes years and total focus to bowl Leg Breaks well and I reckon all that Philpott is doing is giving you ideas to work with and if you're committed some how you'll find your own way of bowling a Leg Break that satisfies you? He says in his book that details such as grip and action are not set in granite, it's a case of finding your own way and one that you're happy with -what do you reckon?

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

something interesting i didnt mention before...

when i was at training the other week for the club i train with, i got there a little early and there were still a load of the junior players there with their coach. i stood and watched for 5 mins before one of them invited me to have a bowl in their net. however i was watching the coach and listening to him, and he was teaching a kid who wanted to bowl leg spin, but seemingly had little previous experience.

what was interesting, is that he was teaching him to bowl with a top spin action!!! at first this seemed a little strange, but by all accounts he is very well respected as a coach and the junior team apparently produces lots of very good players. so i watched this kid progressing for probably an hour or so, and he was really struggling to spin the ball, he was obviously a complete novice and that was his first ever session attempting to bowl leg spin. however he did make quite a large amount of progress during the session!

i thought nothing more of it, and figured it must just be easier to teach leg spin with the top spin grip. then when i was practicing the other day i was initially struggling with accuracy trying to bowl big leg breaks. one ball i sort of accidentally bowled with lots of overspin, and the accuracy, drift, dip, turn, everything just came together. because your fingers are spinning the ball down the wicket, i think that you remove many of the variables that produce error.

relating it back to the coach at the club, i can see why he would favour this method for kids first learning leg spin bowling. once they can bowl in a straight line with revolutions on the ball its a very easy step to get the wrist cocked 45 degrees and suddenly bowl some sizeable leg breaks, with all of the basic technique already in place.

that was just a thought that popped into my head reading your new blog. it may not be a bad way for people to approach leg spin bowling from a beginners standpoint.

one other thing in your blog though - i started out not using my thumb, i did all my spinning with the fingers. i still can quite comfortably. but i use my thumb whenever i can for 2 reasons. 1, i find it improves my accuracy and consistency. 2, ive found a way to incorporate the thumb as a lever, and i can generate more spin with it!! much like Grimmets extra fingers on the ball for his flipper i guess, every additional lever you can effectively introduce should be used. my action now primarily uses my thumb and my ring finger to spin the ball, whereas without the thumb on the ball i have to use my first and ring fingers, and this is a far less controlled grip. try picking the ball up with your 1st and ring fingers and holding it steady. now do the same with thumb and ring finger and that should illustrate why i have found it to work better for me. not that its the correct way, its just what i prefer also, i have a very relaxed grip as you have been discussing earlier.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

With regards top level Spinners and the like my observations are that they feel the necessity to bowl a lot faster 50mph and higher and that the speed is an essential aspect to thier game, but as we even know if you increase your speed the spin is negated hence the reason that they seem to be able to turn the ball less. I'm always impressed of what I see of Mendis as he seems to get wickets with very little turn off the crease - it's all a bit baffling to me!

 

[Paulinho]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I like the description of your grip......... 'holding the ball like you would eating an apple'. This is exactly the grip I'm currently testing and getting all the good results from, it just goes to show that you need to play around with so many different variables until you yourself come up with something that suits you or that you're happy with. Paulinho this 'Apple Grip' you use is it fairly loose?

In fact I liked it so much I've used it in a new blog I'm putting together to replace the old blog. Spin bowling-Legbreak

I've been told I have a very loose grip but like you say it suits me and I get spin with it which is the most important thing.

Reading your Wrist Spin Bowling: The Biggun #2 blog today it got me thinking about how much effort I've been putting into the actual wrist flick whilst using my new action and I have to say it isn't consciously that much, however I have noticed that my wrist, elbow and shoulder all actually hurt today. In fact the right side of my body feels like it's had a proper work out which leads me to believe that I had previously not been using the "levers" that philpott describes.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

in twenty 20 matches it certainly seems that anything that ends up 6" wide of leg stump or about 2 feet wide of off stump is a wide, regardless of how it gets there. so spinners have to really restrict their turn, or pitch it well outside their normal line. since T20 is now one of the more dominant forms of the game, i definitely think that spin bowlers dumb themselves down to be more effective in such forms. one day matches are probably the most important form of county cricket since they play so many games now.

i think youve got...

county championship = 16 games for everyone

Natwest Pro 40 (40 overs) = 8 games for everyone plus i think there are then QF, SF and Final

Friends Provident Trophy (45 overs) = 8 games for everyone, plus QF, SF, Final

Twenty 20 Cup = 10 games for everyone, plus QF, SF, Final

so in all, counties play 16 proper cricket matches, and a minimum of 26 mickey mouse one day games, with a maximum of 35 if they reach the final in all competitions! proper 4-day matches play little part in the county season now. they were considering scrapping it altogether i believe because spectators dont turn out and thus it makes no money. fortunately common sense has prevailed and they are keeping it as a full 16 match format for at least the next 3 years. next year apparently they are getting shot of one of the one-day tournaments and replacing it with additional T20 games so that England can have its own version of the IPL, which is ridiculous.

when 60-70% of your overall games are limited overs games where anything more than a foot or 2 outside of the line of the stumps is a wide its no wonder spinners are fairly subtle now. id imagine they have the ability to really rip the ball, they just dont get the opportunity to do it. county cricket isnt televised afaik, all of the limited overs matches are on Sky Sports (not ALL of them obviously, but at least one match every day they are playing). so my only knowledge of bowlers and their capabilities is from 20, 40 and 45 over matches. and of course international test matches involving England (if England arent involved then it isnt televised).

with regards speed - MacGill bowled fast and it didnt seem to be a problem. i think bowling at a NATURAL speed is important. some people just have an action that propels the ball faster than others. Warne was quite slow (47-50mph springs to mind as his "optimum"?), MacGill is very quick for a leggie (not sure on speeds, ive heard as much as mid-60's though?). then youve got someone like Graeme Swann (off spinner i know) who can bowl as fast as 70mph and still turn the ball well, his stock delivery appears to be around 56-58mph. i think if it comes out fast, thats how you bowl. if it comes out slow, dont try to force it. at best you just wont turn the ball very much, at worse youll lose accuracy. i can bowl a lot faster if i increase the overspin, this is obviously what happens a lot at county level, since the leggies always have lots of bounce. they bowl top spinners with subtle leg spin, pitch it up nice and fast, and that restricts runs and gets them lots of catches in the deep. seems to be the way from my limited observations.

Ajantha Mendis is an odd bowler. sometimes he doesnt appear to turn the ball at all, some days i cant tell if hes an off spinner or a leg spinner because balls go everywhere at complete random! but he takes loads of wickets. my theory is that he has so many variations that its impossible to know which one is coming next, and they all do something different. he uses 3 or 4 different grips!!!! hes probably got 3 different top spinners, a couple of off breaks, a leg break and a backspinner or 2. and every one has a subtle difference to the next in terms of flight and reaction off the pitch. at least thats how it seems. now i know why they call him a "mystery bowler" lol

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Using this new way of bowling (well to me anyway) I've come to realise that the pace of the ball is massively important for how much spin in put on the ball, much more so than the other ways I’ve tried. As the unfurl of the wrist and the downward motion of the hand (3rd finger especially) control the revs on the ball, seam position and pace. I’d say this way of doing it puts even more emphasis on sound basic technique in the delivery and follow through.

The faster I bowl the more revs I get but the forward momentum negates the spin and too slow not enough revs on the ball. This is all common sense I know but finding out your personal optimum pace for each variation, surface, arm position, position on the crease sounds like lots of work and lots of fun.

Maybe it’s time to become a medium pacer.

Nah just kidding!

I bowled some straight seam up balls last thing yesterday evening just to check to see if they'd deviate off thier line solely because of the lumps and bumps. They didn't thus suggesting the stuff I'm bowling turns because of the spin! But bowling the seam up balls they were accurate and fast-ish. I can see how easy it is for younger blokes to get really disillusioned with spin and turn to the 'Dark side' in their desperation for results.

Keep the faith. Once a wrist spinner always a wrist spinner.

 

[Paulinho]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

No I think there's credibility in Philpotts instructions to try and spin the ball back into the body, I think that in doing so you're likely to get your wrist angle to the point that you're going to produce the 90 spinning ball with the potential to turn the most off of the wicket. It may be that you'll never spin the ball inwards, but in trying to do so what'll happen is you'll angle your wrist so much that you'll end up developing a your own variation of the Big Leg Break. Everyone acknowledges that it takes years and total focus to bowl Leg Breaks well and I reckon all that Philpott is doing is giving you ideas to work with and if you're committed some how you'll find your own way of bowling a Leg Break that satisfies you? He says in his book that details such as grip and action are not set in granite, it's a case of finding your own way and one that you're happy with -what do you reckon?

I think I may have explained myself poorly there, I think philpots advice on the big leg break is spot on (for me anyway). if I were to follow the stand with arm out in front of you and flick the ball back at your chest instructions he gives in his book and freeze my wrist in that position (at the moment of release) then move my arm into the delivery position, that's what my big leg break looks like at the moment of release. same goes for the standard leg break and the flicking the ball from hand to hand.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

something interesting i didnt mention before...

when i was at training the other week for the club i train with, i got there a little early and there were still a load of the junior players there with their coach. i stood and watched for 5 mins before one of them invited me to have a bowl in their net. however i was watching the coach and listening to him, and he was teaching a kid who wanted to bowl leg spin, but seemingly had little previous experience.

what was interesting, is that he was teaching him to bowl with a top spin action!!! at first this seemed a little strange, but by all accounts he is very well respected as a coach and the junior team apparently produces lots of very good players. so i watched this kid progressing for probably an hour or so, and he was really struggling to spin the ball, he was obviously a complete novice and that was his first ever session attempting to bowl leg spin. however he did make quite a large amount of progress during the session!

i thought nothing more of it, and figured it must just be easier to teach leg spin with the top spin grip. then when i was practicing the other day i was initially struggling with accuracy trying to bowl big leg breaks. one ball i sort of accidentally bowled with lots of overspin, and the accuracy, drift, dip, turn, everything just came together. because your fingers are spinning the ball down the wicket, i think that you remove many of the variables that produce error.

relating it back to the coach at the club, i can see why he would favour this method for kids first learning leg spin bowling. once they can bowl in a straight line with revolutions on the ball its a very easy step to get the wrist cocked 45 degrees and suddenly bowl some sizeable leg breaks, with all of the basic technique already in place.

that was just a thought that popped into my head reading your new blog. it may not be a bad way for people to approach leg spin bowling from a beginners standpoint.

one other thing in your blog though - i started out not using my thumb, i did all my spinning with the fingers. i still can quite comfortably. but i use my thumb whenever i can for 2 reasons. 1, i find it improves my accuracy and consistency. 2, ive found a way to incorporate the thumb as a lever, and i can generate more spin with it!! much like Grimmets extra fingers on the ball for his flipper i guess, every additional lever you can effectively introduce should be used. my action now primarily uses my thumb and my ring finger to spin the ball, whereas without the thumb on the ball i have to use my first and ring fingers, and this is a far less controlled grip. try picking the ball up with your 1st and ring fingers and holding it steady. now do the same with thumb and ring finger and that should illustrate why i have found it to work better for me. not that its the correct way, its just what i prefer also, i have a very relaxed grip as you have been discussing earlier.

That's an interesting point with regards the coach and the kid and I can see the point. I know that when I was just a 'Googly Bowler' I spent a lot of time learning to bowl the Top Spinner and it was a key point in me learning how to bowl a good line and length and get my follow through, step over and pivot together. What do you reckon then to the idea that if you're struggling to get the Leg Break because of it's complexities that you perhaps stop and revert to learning the Top Spinner as a first stage and then go back to the Leg Break later? Another thought on this is that stage 1 of Philpotts instructions, the first exercise that he describes - bowling the ball across the body from hand to hand in my books looks more akin to bowling the Top-Spinner, yet he then says 'Now you've bowled a Leg Break'. Macca's comments on this would be helpful I reckon as he's training his son to bowl leg-breaks?

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Your explanation suggest that if you were to pitch the ball down the middle on one of the stumps and then it was to turn that'd be a wide? That can't be surely?

Indoor was a bit like that. My son spun his team to victory in the final and he finished his season with a hat-trick with his last three balls of the comp.
But he has had to bowl with a lot of topspin all season and try and stop from spinning too much . If he really gave it a rip he could turn it almost square on the carpet.
That is the only problem with legspin and the indoor wide rule, some great deliveries are deemed wide whereas outdoor they would be considered perfect.
I might have to get my young bloke (jimmy) to post here and tell how he does it because he is a better bowler than I was.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

My 11 year old son has all the legspinners arsenal, more or less, but we have not been analysing much lately. His big advantage is how accurate he is.

Mainly legbreaks and topspinners pitched up on the stumps. Our aim is 5 overs on the trot, with no bad balls. nothing wide or short. topspinners must not go down legside. There is no use pitching down legside if you dont intend spinning it back.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Jim, you make loads of good points in your previous 2 posts, and others with which I do not agree. Can you try to give them in smaller amounts as my attention span has become worse than a young boy with ADHD. I do not mean to be rude, rather it is so that the good points you make do not go unnoticed as they deserve thought and comment.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

What do you reckon though to the idea that if you're not getting anywhere with your Leg Break that you turn to the Top-Spinner first, or as with the example the bloke cited with little kids you teach them the Top Spinner before the Leg Break?

I've always been under the impression that many kids when shown the 2 up 2 down grip bowl Leg Breaks naturally right from the outset and it's only when they start thinking about it more that it potentially all start going wrong.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

With regards top level Spinners and the like my observations are that they feel the necessity to bowl a lot faster 50mph and higher and that the speed is an essential aspect to thier game, but as we even know if you increase your speed the spin is negated hence the reason that they seem to be able to turn the ball less. I'm always impressed of what I see of Mendis as he seems to get wickets with very little turn off the crease - it's all a bit baffling to me!

Mendis' strength I think is his accuracy and the fact that he bowls incredibly straight. I do not know about his statistics but assume he has an inordinate amount of LBWs. He also seems to have a very nice googly, even though it does not turn anywhere as much as yours my old friend.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I notice my son bowled the topspinner as his stock ball when he first started about 4 years ago. that seemed the natural way wrist spin came out of his hand.

But it did not not take all that long to turn it around and make the legbreak his stock ball. The topspinner is still crucial to his sucess though.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

if you were to pitch the ball down the middle on one of the stumps and then it was to turn that'd be a wide? That can't be surely?

From what I see, anything just outside legstump and not hitting any part of the batsman is called a wide in international limited overs cricket.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I might try this with my son Joe who seems to have lost the ability to bowl the Leg Break, although having said that this new approach I've been using with the much looser grip might work for him as well, so I'll suggest that first and see how he gets on with it.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I might have to get my young bloke (jimmy) to post here and tell how he does it because he is a better bowler than I was.

That would be very nice, and him bowling the big legbreaks would be really nice. I know you had a video on Youtube. Always nice to see different leg spinners especially when young and talented.

Today saw 2 pom leg spinners: Waller for somerset and Beer for sussex. They seem to roll the ball rather than spin it viciously. I thought they may have been tutored by jenner as they looked quite similar in delivery. It could be as you said above that the lack of rip might be due to the strict rules on limited overs.

Anything new unearthed about grimmet. I read a book by peables and apparently he lost the leg break as well. He got the don with a googly in an ashes test match. Could this have been one of the dons weaknesses. Grimmet got him out at least once with it, peables ditto and hollies in the last test match.

 

[Paulinho]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I bowled some straight seam up balls last thing yesterday evening just to check to see if they'd deviate off thier line solely because of the lumps and bumps. They didn't thus suggesting the stuff I'm bowling turns because of the spin! But bowling the seam up balls they were accurate and fast-ish. I can see how easy it is for younger blokes to get really disillusioned with spin and turn to the 'Dark side' in their desperation for results.

Keep the faith. Once a wrist spinner always a wrist spinner.

Don't get me wrong I can’t give up now, I'm like a kid with a new toy, having found a way that I can bowl a big leg break that can turn square (if I get it right) and a normal leg break that can beat the bat with seemingly little effort (although my aching body begs to differ). The funny thing is I'm coming to the conclusion, although I may be wrong, that this is the orthodox way of doing it. It's still difficult mind you and it's going to take some time for me to attain the accuracy of line and length that I had with the other methods I was using.

Having read Philpott’s explanations again and having a bit more understanding of how it feels to bowl with this new action I think it might be what he's talking about.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I got side-tracked studying o'reillys works for any grimmett stuff. The first thing you will notice in o reillys writings is; he was not a legspinner, and he does not " believe" in the things legspinners do.

Drop, according to Bill O Reilly, does not exist and is just a figment of our imagination! Same goes for everything else we think we have going for us.

He described himself more as a pace bowler would.

O Reilly wrote that just as Bradman was the greatest batsman he ever witnessed, Clarrie Grimmett was the greatest bowler he saw play cricket.