Wrist Spin Bowling

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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

It's definitely an option to look at if I'm going to be trying to develop my Leg Break into something that'll turn better.

I still haven't been able to use my Grimmett Top-Spinner yet in a match, everything seems to be working against me, preventing me from getting a chance. It's a good delivery very accurate and I seem to be able to bowl it as a one off in amongst all the other variations and produce the accuracy. I've neglected the back-spinning Flipper and hardly ever use it as this Top-Spinning version just looks far more useful.

Macca have you got the other Grimmett book 'Tricking the Batsman'?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;360618 said:
If a good batsman faces a legspinner enough they will learn to pick the flipper out of the hand. Grimmett knew this and was very secretive with what he was up to.
What always amazed me about Warne was how much he could spin the ball using both conventional legspin as well as the completely different method used to finger click a flipper. He was the best at both styles.
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I think I said in an earlier post Warne was a freak (in a good way). A natural ability to spin the ball massively, combined with an almost perfect action in all of it's aspect. Add the fact that until his later career he was able to bowl 6 good deliveries almost every over and you have a pretty amazing bowler. I think warnes lack of poor balls is why Mcgill didn't get a look in when warne was available as he did bowl at least one bad ball an over (he was still a world class spinner though).
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I am sure you have seen this. The first part explains swing, while the second part starts explaining spin. Had seen it months ago but lost it. I think it is a very good explanation. YouTube - (3/6) Science of Sport - Cricket . And continuued here, even though he says ut bounces with backspin. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tGaoSz14g&feature=related Well actually it continues on part 4.

I seem to be the only leggie logging hours at work rather on the field, you lucky bu'\\\rs.


Sorry to hear of your dislocation, you will need to ice it regularly to reduce the swelling. They can take some time to heal. The good thing is you do not have a fracture or tendon/nerve/vessel involvement.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

do most people have there front foot pointing down the wicket in delivery?

I had always had it at an angle but this made me loose balance in the delivery which effected accuracy. I've recently changed to the foot pointing at the target and I'm able to stay upright and pivot easier but it does feel a little strange and forced. I was just wondering what others do and if this is orthodox. Either way I'll persist as I'm getting good results. I'm hoping I'll get used to it in time.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Jim2109;360099 said:
just to respond to a few of the many posts from yesterday...


anyway, eventually i figured out my issue. its my run up. i started bowling off of two steps, with the aim of working up to the run up later as i found my consistency. i got the 2 step technique nailed, my length was awesome, 95% perfect id say. i went about 20 minutes of constant bowling without a single wayward ball on length, it was awesome!! everything was well flighted, and mostly turning. ive decided that the soft padded wicket surface doesnt help spin, the astroturf is too slippy. i actually prefer bowling on concrete. however its yet another turn challenge, if i can get the ball to turn big on rubbish surfaces, then turning on grass is going to be a doddle. the surface is meant more to give realistic bounce to pace bowlers i think, like its not enough that batsman are favoured over bowlers in cricket, pace bowlers are favoured over spinners. were fighting a losing battle here guys lol.

im now a no run up bowler though. there is just no need for it. im not bowling slowly by any means, and until such a time that i can find a comfortable run up technique im just going to do away with it. i find that bowling without the run up means i put much more effort into my follow through to compensate for the pace, and this in turn yields more spin. the run up just screws everything up, although earlier in the week i had it working perfectly. il come back to it during the winter i think when there is no cricket to be played, right now i want to get a few games before the season ends just as a taster for next year.




.
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It is the same with me. The longer the run up the less the accuracy and the less the turn/spin. The simpler the whole movement the better for me. But having said that practicing 1 hour every 2 weeks will not see me improving too much further. I agree though that bowling the bigger leg break ( with my unstylish round arm) off 2 steps is much more effective than my usual slow running 6 steps.

I also agree that the googly seems to benefit from a more vertical arm position. Round arm I always spray it well down the leg side, even though the mystery ball has loads of potential as a topspinning offbreak/wrong one.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Paulinho;360716 said:
do most people have there front foot pointing down the wicket in delivery?

I had always had it at an angle but this made me loose balance in the delivery which effected accuracy. I've recently changed to the foot pointing at the target and I'm able to stay upright and pivot easier but it does feel a little strange and forced. I was just wondering what others do and if this is orthodox. Either way I'll persist as I'm getting good results. I'm hoping I'll get used to it in time.
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mine sort of points at the target. it actually points more towards about a foot outside leg stump. and strangely enough the ball typically goes in that direction, no matter how much i open my chest out or adjust my arm. you might just be onto something here!!! il have to try point it at off stump and see what happens.

i had a practice today in the nets bowling to my brother. for anyone who remembers my first posts on here i was bowling at my brother all the time when i started before i bowled by myself (about 6 weeks ago). he used to slog every ball all over the place and i could never beat him with the ball. we were both bored today so had a play at the nets, 95% of my deliveries were well bowled in everything except for line (they all had plenty of spin), i kept pitching it leg side. but he was struggling to play me big time! trying to play me off the back foot all the time when the ball was pitched up to be driven (he cant drive. at all), which resulted in lots of cramped up shots, lots of balls going skywards without any distance on them (easy catches), lots of edges when he tried to get forwards, i bowled him a couple of times and came close a few more. what a difference 6 weeks makes!

my sideways off spinning flipper is getting better, i bowled one absolute peach inline with off and it came back in 8-12" and absolutey zipped through and gave my brother a dead leg lol, it hit him in the thigh, the lack of back spin means it still bounces nicely! i think it could be a more useful delivery than a googly. it comes back in MORE because its easier to generate large amounts of spin. it also zips through at a lower trajectory. so the batsman has less time to adjust to it, so its almost always going to find a pad in front of the stumps, or the stumps themselves if its bowled well.

finally, ive got my release and revolutions on the ball spot on now. the ball absolutely rips most times, it doesnt always turn off the pitch (but then i supposed thats the nature of spin bowling, sometimes it just doesnt. 99% of what commentators called Warnes flipper or slider were actually just big leg breaks that skidded on when you watch the slow motion shots lol). the one thing they almost always do though is to drift and dip. sometimes pretty big! i had a couple move at least 18" today. and one of my off-spinning flippers drifted IN (i know, it should have gone the other way surely?) in the most bizarre fashion. it was gently drifting as soon as it left the hand, then about halfway down the pitch it drifted really big, like the wind had suddenly caught it, except there was nothing more than a gentle breeze, and then did what i expected off the pitch. it was strange for sure, i couldnt repeat it lol. the seam wasnt upright though, it came out angled, so maybe that had a part to play.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The image isn't actually my dislocation, I was in such a hurry to get to the hospital that I forgot to take a camera which is a real shame as the XRAY was classic, even the Xray bloke seemed impressed. The nurse who put it back didn't mention any ice and to be honest it looks as though the swelling has already gone down. Don't tell anyone but I was bowling with the kids tonight, but I was using the Iverson Gleeson grip and not attempting to spin it or bowl it with any sense of effort and I only bowled 3 overs!

Yeah your work load sounds knackering, how out of sync is your time compared to BST or is it the same - it's just after 11pm here at the mo. Similar with Macca I assume that he's a freelancer hence the reason he's able to comment at what must be around midday?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Paulinho;360716 said:
do most people have there front foot pointing down the wicket in delivery?

I had always had it at an angle but this made me loose balance in the delivery which effected accuracy. I've recently changed to the foot pointing at the target and I'm able to stay upright and pivot easier but it does feel a little strange and forced. I was just wondering what others do and if this is orthodox. Either way I'll persist as I'm getting good results. I'm hoping I'll get used to it in time.
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No, I point mine towards leg-side to obtain maximum pivot. This is the orthodox manner. If you look at the bowling actions of international leg-spinners you will see that most of them do this. The more effective pivot allows you to get more revs on the ball.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

W'hey I'm back in action, went to the hospital and the bloke said the dislocation is fine and that I just need to exercise the ligaments and get them back into shape. Went straight home and bowled for an hour or so and did exceptionally well, noticed that some of my balls do drift, one was pitched just wide of the off-stump, it drifted in landed just outside of Leg Stump came back in off the wicket and hit middle and off! I was Shane Warne!!! LOL!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Work in a hospital, so tomorrow a straight 24 hours. Here we are past midnight, so it is curtains from me. Hope the nurse was to your liking, joking!

As regards the mystery ball, I tried it every 50/60 balls. Never get it to move straight on. Must be a problem with my wrist, it always ends up as an offspinner. Bowled it to little to get any strain I'm afraid. Last 2 months temperatures in low to mid 30 C and very humid, so practice has been very sporadic to put it mildly.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The Edge Of Willow;360734 said:
No, I point mine towards leg-side to obtain maximum pivot. This is the orthodox manner. If you look at the bowling actions of international leg-spinners you will see that most of them do this. The more effective pivot allows you to get more revs on the ball.
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Towards leg-side to get more revs. That is what we do as well.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;360144 said:
I am sure you have seen this. The first part explains swing, while the second part starts explaining spin. Had seen it months ago but lost it. I think it is a very good explanation. YouTube - (3/6) Science of Sport - Cricket . And continuued here, even though he says ut bounces with backspin. YouTube - (3/6) Science of Sport - Cricket Well actually it continues on part 4.

I seem to be the only leggie logging hours at work rather on the field, you lucky bu'\\\rs.


Sorry to hear of your dislocation, you will need to ice it regularly to reduce the swelling. They can take some time to heal. The good thing is you do not have a fracture or tendon/nerve/vessel involvement.
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Yeah this is good but I had to laugh at Jenner flicking the ball from one hand to the other and barely making it spin! I'll post up some vids soon in conjunction with my new blogs demonstrating the flick exercises that Philpott recommend and the Flippers including the Mystery ball.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I always thought that pointing the foot leg side was the othodox way and it always felt more natural. I changed this due to the falling over problem. I had a mini session today and I'm not sure if this is the solution

can I ask when you all pivot do you go up on your toes in the delivery or in the follow through? I've looked at stills of warne and Mcgill and they seem to change constantly. warne in particular seems to have planted foot quite far into his action. I think going up on my toes earlier may help me go forward instead of to the side.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Hope you get better too Gundalf, that was a horrendous injury you got there. Take care of your body if you want to keep bowling at our age ( macca's, dave's and mine, I mean)
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah my pivot foot point towards the legside. One thing I do is that I step right out into the middle of the wicket YouTube - Big Wrong Un right in front of the stumps with my pivot foot, but our coach said this wasn't a good thing and that I should bowl wider of the stumps. Any thoughts on this?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I've just changed the way I train to a system where I bowl a 6 ball over like this -

1. The Biggun (ish)
2. The Mystery Ball (has off spin tendencies)
3. The Biggun
4. Small fast Leg Break
5. The Biggun
6. Wrong Un

Repeat ad infinitum so it keeps me on top of 4 different deliveries.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;360624 said:
Macca do you know how much training Warne would have done during the height of his career?
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I am not sure. He always had plenty of time as he never really had a "proper job" in his life. He worked long hours to crack the flipper.
His coaches like potter, simpson and jenner reckoned he worked hard at various periods.
When he was at his peak he was overbowled and more injury prone so he may not have done as much then.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Hope your fingers gundalf and dave are getting better slowly. Threw some balls today after an abscence of 2 weeks. Started more vertical, but they came out mainly as topspinners and small legbreaks. Then I resorted to my usual grimmett like low arm deliveries and tried hard to replicate the big legbreak that I bowl underarm with the backspinning element to my round arm deliveries. Some turned nicely pitching outside leg stump or middle at a good length and many went across the stumps past offstump. Others were delivered in the same way and ended just wide of the leg stump. But one thing that was obvious was that they must all have had an element of backspin as the majority kept lower.

Another thing I noticed for the first time was that some deliveries made a whizzing sound. I suspect it could have been from the balls being rather old, tatty and rough, with very little seam left on them. I also surmise that I get the majority of spin from my shoulder, elbow and body movements, with a smaller contribution from the wrist and even less from my middle finger. I might also have gotten some drift towards legstump. I think it might be from the high humidity that was around 85% ( even though I have never read it affects drift). There was a very light breeze that might have assisted the leg break minimally. I als tried changing the wrist position minimally, and found that between my biggest leg break and the backspinner the rotation of the wrist is really minimal say 5-10 degrees.

I placed a long strip of metal about 4 feet in front of the batting crease and two strips of tape in line with the off stump and legstump. Length was quite good and line reasonable with a few wides down leg side expecting the ball to do a miracle and come back. All in all was very happy with the 2 hours spent, and as usual as is always in my case, my best session is the one after a long time without practicing. I image that when I practice more often I try to do something different every ball and try ti tinker too much with different facets of my action.

I practice on a tennis court. I know that I can look it up, but I deliver from the midcourt line and image that the batsmans crease is the service line of the other side. I then set the stumps 1.2 metres further behind that service line. Do you think the distances are right? I know I am hopeless at explaining, so bear with me.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;360744 said:
I am not sure. He always had plenty of time as he never really had a "proper job" in his life. He worked long hours to crack the flipper.
His coaches like potter, simpson and jenner reckoned he worked hard at various periods.
When he was at his peak he was overbowled and more injury prone so he may not have done as much then.
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I haven't got a clue what a pro cricketers training program is like, but you kind of get the impression that our lot do loads of gym work as well as actual skills practice/training. If it's anything like our pro soccer players it's not a lot, but I'd like to know how much from someone.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;360150 said:
Yeah this is good but I had to laugh at Jenner flicking the ball from one hand to the other and barely making it spin! I'll post up some vids soon in conjunction with my new blogs demonstrating the flick exercises that Philpott recommend and the Flippers including the Mystery ball.
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I've been reading a few of the threads on here talking about the amount of revs put on the ball and how important this may or may not be. over the the weekend (game called off for rain) I've been trying to video myself with mixed results but have found something that is obvious but probably quite important to note. basically however many revs I manage to to get on the ball landing it on the seam appeards to be the main factor in achieving turn. the more revs the better of course but a vertical seam help turn and drift and dip far more it would appear.

the other thing that I noticed from watching the 20-20 finals was how many young leg spinners there are at county level.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Paulinho;360742 said:
I always thought that pointing the foot leg side was the othodox way and it always felt more natural. I changed this due to the falling over problem. I had a mini session today and I'm not sure if this is the solution

can I ask when you all pivot do you go up on your toes in the delivery or in the follow through? I've looked at stills of warne and Mcgill and they seem to change constantly. warne in particular seems to have planted foot quite far into his action. I think going up on my toes earlier may help me go forward instead of to the side.
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I think you might be agonising about the details too much? Just make sure the action feels smooth and steady, what is it that you're looking to improve through these slight tweaks?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I've just been ranting on another forum about the negative attitudes of people towards spinners and how that they threaten the existence of spin bowling in cricket, so it's good to come over to here and hear some good news that there are spinners coming up through the ranks - is it County T-20? Give us a few names?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Paulinho;360742 said:
I always thought that pointing the foot leg side was the othodox way and it always felt more natural. I changed this due to the falling over problem. I had a mini session today and I'm not sure if this is the solution

can I ask when you all pivot do you go up on your toes in the delivery or in the follow through? I've looked at stills of warne and Mcgill and they seem to change constantly. warne in particular seems to have planted foot quite far into his action. I think going up on my toes earlier may help me go forward instead of to the side.
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I think mine point to leg slip for the small leg break and straighter for the attempted big leg break, as i find the latter helps to get more side spin, but having said that I am very round arm. I know it does not make much sense but that is the way it works with me.

As others said do not get too bogged down by tiny details. I would concentrate on getting a good rhythm, even if you count out loud at first, for me that is the basis. Once you get a decently accurate line and length, then start thinking at tweaking things. But if you are running up thinking my back leg has to be parrallel to the crease, i must have my wrist cocked, my front foot must point to leg slip, i have to get my arm more vertical, i had better release the ball now, i must keep my front leg braced, now my left hand should be reaching out, my right leg should be coming forward, my left arm should be tucked into my ribs, my right shoulder must be facing the batsman, my arm has to go past my left hip etc be sure that the delivery will go anywhere but where it should go. I think I echo my friends' opinion to say we all had that phase and still get them, but we try to send these demons away from our thoughts.

By the way paulinho are you of portugese descent just out of curiosity.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Somerset has Max Waller, Durham Scott Borthwick and Will Beer at Sussex.

These are three that I've seen bowl recently and they have all taken wickets. none appear to be big turners of the ball with the exception of bothwick possibly and they all use the googly a lot. This may be because they were all in limited overs games though and they are all very young. Bothwick isn't 19 yet not sure about the other two.

Of course there is also Rashid at Yorkshire and Mark Lawson who was at Yorkshire but moved to Derbyshire I think.

I'm sure they have all worked with Terry Jenner’s at the ECB.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

On the subject of tweaking I've been making sure my arm comes down across the body past the hip, it seems to help with increasing the spin. On the subejct of spin.....

I've never watched the ball going away from when I'm bowling till recently (From my main blog)..........

The first ball I bowled since dislocating my fingers hit the stumps middle and leg coming in from the legside, so that was a promising start! The hour that I bowled went really well and backed up the notion that sometimes taking a break from intensive practice is a positive move that sometimes moves your bowling forwards. I mentioned either here or elswhere that I never watch the ball as it flies through the air, I'm totally focused on where it's going to land and whether it's going to turn off the wicket, but I've been involved in a lot of forum dicsussions on how much does the ball need to spin in order that it turns off the wicket. As a consequence the day or so before I did my finger I'd taken to watching the ball as it flew through the air away from me and observed how much it was rotating and this was with this new relaxed grip technique that I've developed. The things is it truns what looks to me as being relatively slowly, but despite the speed of the rotation it breaks off the wicket quite well! But today with my absence from bowling and looking at my bowling with fresh eyes and now watching the ball go away from me in flight I noticed that one of my first balls left the hand heading for the off-stump rotating almost 90 degrees to the the wicket and then it drifted in towards the leg-side landing outside the leg-stump and then breaking back in and hitting Middle and Off! Not a big break maybe 6" outside of leg, but nonetheless a good delivery! So perhaps I do get the ball to drift or maybe this is new with this new delivery technique, or is it that I just have never watched the ball flying through the sky before? But it's a good start after my finger incident.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Does anyone know how much training Warne used to do at the height of his career, is it hours and hours per day or was it hours per week? Someone a while back suggested that he put a lot of time in training, I'd like to know the details.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

By the way how did many of you start leg spin. I remember when I was about 12, finding a book in our library by learie constantine. It was a sort of small cricket manual. I read it but what fascinated me was the word googly. I read the explanation and remember trying it for hours with a tennis ball. Then completely forgot about cricket for 10 years, and went to london for a holiday and saw ian botham on his return after smoking pot i believe, and saw him smash the new zealanders. In our country, cricket is only played by 3/4 clubs. So whenever I try to practice, I get quizzical looks.

Apart from that I always seemed to have a fascination in spinning table tennis and tennis balls. Even when playing tennis I preferred playing bachand chops as we used to call them, and be fascinated with how low they kept and how they skidded off the surface.

Then there was shane warne. I think does were my encounters that got me close to leg spin. For you poms and aussies obviously, I presume many of you had a bat in your cot, a backyard the size of a wicket and a dog to retrieve the balls you bowled. By the way if you find thet dog it is clarries, he seems to have lost it about 70 years ago!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Shaun Graf was Warnes club captain and he reckons it might have been the narrowness of the St Kilda nets that helped hone Warnes accurracy!

Hey dave I will send some grimmett stuff in the post.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;360748 said:
By the way paulinho are you of portugese descent just out of curiosity.
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It's a nickname I picked up from being pretty good at footy (soccer) so no portugese or brazilian I'm afraid, just the footy skills (i wish).

As for why wrist spin, well the first year my school had a cricket team I was asked what part I wanted to play in it, it was 1993 and I'd just seen a certain S K Warne bowl for the first time. told my teacher I wanted to bowl wrist spin and was told it was really hard, but I found that I could spin the ball. played for three seasons and got pretty good. After that didn't play again until 2007 so wish I'd stuck at it but it's coming back to me slowly.

And yes you are right I bowl my best when all I think about is what shot I want the batsman to play and nothing else.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;360369 said:
Does anyone know how much training Warne used to do at the height of his career, is it hours and hours per day or was it hours per week? Someone a while back suggested that he put a lot of time in training, I'd like to know the details.
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I know that he spent a good hour with Jenner before most days of a test match working on the alignment of his body in the delivery.

When he was at the academy I think the training was six hours a day.

does anyone know were you can get a copy of the ECB wings to fly DVD it is apparently the closest thing to the art of wrist bowling in DVD form.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;360750 said:
By the way how did many of you start leg spin. I remember when I was about 12, finding a book in our library by learie constantine. It was a sort of small cricket manual. I read it but what fascinated me was the word googly. I read the explanation and remember trying it for hours with a tennis ball. Then completely forgot about cricket for 10 years, and went to london for a holiday and saw ian botham on his return after smoking pot i believe, and saw him smash the new zealanders. In our country, cricket is only played by 3/4 clubs. So whenever I try to practice, I get quizzical looks.

Apart from that I always seemed to have a fascination in spinning table tennis and tennis balls. Even when playing tennis I preferred playing bachand chops as we used to call them, and be fascinated with how low they kept and how they skidded off the surface.

Then there was shane warne. I think does were my encounters that got me close to leg spin. For you poms and aussies obviously, I presume many of you had a bat in your cot, a backyard the size of a wicket and a dog to retrieve the balls you bowled. By the way if you find thet dog it is clarries, he seems to have lost it about 70 years ago!
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Years ago we lived in a council house that had a yard that was long and thin with a lawn big enough for cricket, the house was a 1920's house when they used to have big back yards. These days my house is a 1970's job barely big enough to swing the cats that come in and crap everywhere. Never played cricket, but like you I read a story years ago in a Boys book, may have been The Eagle back in the 1960's and that had an account of someone bowling wrong uns and I found that fascinating. I'm a Warne product first spotted him in the days when Nasser Hussein was the England captain and was mesmerised by what he was doing, so different to all the crap that used to turn me off of cricket back in the 70's and 80's waiting 10 minutes for someone to walk the length of the cricket pitch and then run in and have the ball hit for 4 or what have you - so boring. An account of why I started is here - Wrist Spin Bowling: Introduction
I certainly didn't have a bat in the cot, where I lived it was very much football, football and more football and very working class, so cricket looked like a posh gents game and that was very much reflected by what you saw on the tele (1960's).

Saddo what's a 3/4 club?
 
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the problem ive seen with all the county leg spinners is that none of them turn the ball though! they barely bowl leg breaks, they have no more turn than an average county off spinner. they are definitely being brought up to play one day cricket, where youre not necessarily trying to take a wicket, just to confuse the batsman enough that he cant play a shot for runs. if Rashid is the best leg spinner in the UK, which has to be assumed since he is the only one even close to the England setup at present, then that doesnt bode too well for those below him, since he has minimal turn, minimal revs on the ball, but bowls a pretty good line and length. again, this is a one day thing, you need line and length to restrict runs (not to mention extras, if you turn the ball too much youll get wides lol). maybe they are capable of turning the ball more but arent allowed to do so by their captains? youd think English cricket would understand the importance of big spin better than anyone, im not sure if it is definitely the case, but id imagine Shane Warne took more wickets per match against England than against any other side. i stand to be corrected if that isnt the case. but either way, plenty of Englishmen found him unplayable.

i dont think there is a single test match leg spinner left now who really rips the ball, aside from possibly Danish Kaneria on a good day. Ajantha Mendis doesnt really count because so far as i can tell hes more of an off spinner with a ton of random variations, kinda like Murali, they are both wrist spinners though at least.

also, with regards drift and humidity. technically swing bowling shouldnt be affected by humidity, NASA scientists say that overcast conditions promoting swing is absolute nonsense and that its all in the bowlers head. ive watched enough cricket to see that the ball does appear to swing more in certain types of weather conditions, so i think that must come down to physics that is not yet understood. ive also seen the ball swing in very unlikely conditions in near-equator sunshine with no clouds in the sky, so maybe NASA are right and bowlers just get it stuck in their head that if its overcast theyll get swing, and this results in them trying harder (or maybe trying less hard and relaxing?). at the same time, if it does actually affect swing bowling then it should also affect spin bowling to some extent, the jury is out on that one.

with regards drift and dip, ive been thinking about it lately as i know bits and pieces about aerodynamics and consider myself reasonably well informed on the basics. the top spinning ball with a perfectly straight seam and 2 equally worn sides should in theory not drift, however if one side is shined for the seam bowlers then "contrast swing" (dead straight seam, one side shiny one side rough) could come into play on a small level with a spin bowler, the faster the ball is delivered the more it will move sideways, away from the smooth side. this type of swing also requires the least speed to work at its optimum, so that also helps the spin bowler! the magnus effect on the spinning ball then also comes into play and is partly why the ball dips (the ball always moves WITH the rotation). the other reason, which ive never actually read with regards spinning cricket balls but figured must be the case (it is with many other types of spinning ball, such as bowling balls), is gyroscopic effects. youve got a top spinning mass, it should want to drop out of the sky faster than gravity alone would dictate. so the more you spin the ball, the more you accentuate both of these effects!! the drift aspect is more dependant on speed than spin, although spin also stabilises the seam.

with the small leg break with plenty of overspin youve got the magnus effect giving you both dip AND drift, gyroscopic effects giving both drift and dip now as well, but then youve got conventional swing bowling which would suggest the ball should actually move WITH the seam, which would oppose the drift. i can only think that because the forward velocity of the ball is low, but the rotational velocity is high if youve ripped it, that the magnus effect outweighs everything else (and gyroscopic effects too), so the ball drifts in, and not away. it would also help to a small extent id think to have the shiny side out. this is the opposite of what youd want for conventional swing, and might negate the effects a little giving slightly more drift. im sure its negligible.

big leg break with a 90 degree seam should exhibit drift only, there are no swing effects, only magnus and gyro effects. it should in theory drift more than any other type of delivery, and as said, it shouldnt dip. HOWEVER.... on the earlier deliveries the seam is still angled forwards, meaning one side of the ball is nicely presented to the airstream and thus the air can flow around it in a more laminar fashion before seperating towards the trailing edge, whilst the seam disrupts airflow on the other side and makes it turbulent, the ensuing boundary layer keeps the airflow attached for longer so it seperates later, the resultant wake and its directiong is what causes swing. if the seam is 90 degrees then my view is that there would be equal resultant flow on either side (and a straight wake), but with lots of turbulence and early seperation, which should in theory increase the drag on the ball. increased drag means it will lose its forward velocity at a more rapid rate, so this ball should actually dip a little as well, probably not as much as the overspun deliveries. anyone else got any thoughts on this? on the other hand, youve got the bullet effect - a bullet spins to keep it airborne and straight for longer, some baseball pitchers also use the same technique (they call it a "gyroball") and it arrives at the batter much more quickly than they are expecting it to. who knows.

with backspun deliveries it should be the opposite of the top spinner, the ball should hang in the air longer as a result of both magnus and gyro effects, there may be some small contrast swing, id think most people deliver the backspinner a little flatter and faster than their other deliveries, so possibly there would be more swing on this delivery. the flatter trajectory as a function of both delivery and flight effects should make it bounce less and lose pace off the pitch (as opposed to the top spinner that bounces more and gains pace). however ive found that if you spin it hard enough you can get it to bounce higher than it should, especially if you flight it well. this only works with my slider which i believe spins far more than any of my other deliveries simply due to the nature in which it is delivered (the physical arm motion is always going to impart backspin, plus my hand and wrist are delivering as much spin as my leg break, which results in more spin overall). so when it hits the pitch it almost stops dead, stands up and its forward momentum gets transferred into upwards momentum instead, it then drops back down violently due to its steep incline. my flipper just skids through really low like it should.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Totally agree with the amount of turn I've seen from county leg spinners, but I've only ever seen them bowl in limited overs so wides are a consideration they may be doing this on purpose. I saw Rashid bowl a massive leg break that was given a wide and he didn't bowl one again.

Also I did post earlier about the vertical seam producing all the lovely effects on the ball you want like drift and dip and ultimately turn of the wicket but I should have mentioned that I’ve noted that there has to be an element of over spin to produce dip on the ball. I also mentioned earlier that there is an optimum Pace to produce all these nice things which seems a very individual thing. I said in that post that pace appears to directly correspond with the amount of revs I can produce and too many can nullify dip drift and turn. Since then I have been able to product hi revs bowling slow and vise versa but there is still for me an optimum pace. The importance of refining you action to the point where it something you don’t even think about is becoming more and more apparent to me as I think once you have gotten to this level accuracy and variation of spin become so much easier.

One last thing. I was always a little dubious about the peter philpott statement that flicking a ball from hand to hand is a leg break and bowling back to your body is a big leg break. I just always thought that the hand when bowling over arm must be doing something different and more complex. But studying slow motion images of my self and seeing how the hand ends up and them comparing those with how my hand behaves when doing the simple act of flicking from hand to hand I see they are exactly the same. A common thread in my posts seems to be stating the obvious but there I go again. Perhaps over complicating the whole thing is as dangerous as the googly syndrome to a bowlers development and should be avoided at all costs.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Paulinho;360843 said:
An Aussie side with no spinner at the Oval. what is the world coming to?
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Yeah it's looking like a mistake, the part timer North was turning the ball well, let's hope Swanney can do something, shame he's not a wrist spinner though.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Jim2109;360380 said:
If you turn the ball too much youll get wides lol). maybe they are capable of turning the ball more but arent allowed to do so by their captains?
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Man there's so much in those 2 posts to comment on I don't think I can cope!!! Anyway, the quote above referring to County level Leg Spinners. Surely that's not the case? Your explanation suggest that if you were to pitch the ball down the middle on one of the stumps and then it was to turn that'd be a wide? That can't be surely?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

No I think there's credibility in Philpotts instructions to try and spin the ball back into the body, I think that in doing so you're likely to get your wrist angle to the point that you're going to produce the 90 spinning ball with the potential to turn the most off of the wicket. It may be that you'll never spin the ball inwards, but in trying to do so what'll happen is you'll angle your wrist so much that you'll end up developing a your own variation of the Big Leg Break. Everyone acknowledges that it takes years and total focus to bowl Leg Breaks well and I reckon all that Philpott is doing is giving you ideas to work with and if you're committed some how you'll find your own way of bowling a Leg Break that satisfies you? He says in his book that details such as grip and action are not set in granite, it's a case of finding your own way and one that you're happy with -what do you reckon?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

its a huge step it seems though from county to international at the moment. Harmison, Onions, and Bell have all been top of their respective bowling/batting tables this season, miles ahead of anyone else. none of them have set the world alight for England. Bopara came into the England line-up last year off the back of an excellent county campaign. Rashid is potentially an awesome prospect, his one day bowling looks ok, thats all ive physically seen of him. he wasnt turning the ball that much, but that appears to be more because the one day game doesnt permit it. Shane Warne had some very positive comments about him during the coverage today, those dont come cheaply. so he must be pretty good, ive heard he can actually turn the ball pretty big as well when the situation allows. i know nothing of his batting at all, when they were talking on Sky Sports today about him hitting centuries regularly that was the first time id heard him referred to as an all rounder! although i was playing on "The Ashes" playstation game the other day and noticed that his batting rating on there is pretty good, which had me wondering.

im not sure anyone is going to replace Freddie though. i hate it when the media latches onto stuff like this. as the Barmy Army sings every match, "theres only one Freddie Flintoff". the same as there was only one Ian Botham. whoever becomes the next great all-rounder (assuming anyone else does!) will be the only one of themselves. i dont really agree with the hype surrounding immediate replacement of certain players with a player of identical stature and style. i think its been a huge problem for Australia in recent years, when all their legends retired, and everyone gets marked by the world class standards that preceeded them. Nathan Hauritz isnt playing this test match, even though the wicket suggests that he should have been the first name on the team sheet, because every spinner in Australia is judged by the wicket taking standards of Shane Warne. it just isnt realistic, he was a "freak of nature" as Paulinho so kindly put it lol, there may never be another leggie as good as Warne in the rest of history. if took decades to get from Grimmett to Benaud, and Benaud to Warne. the same as it took decades to get from Botham to Flintoff.

personally i reckon Stuart Broad is most likely as the next good (maybe great) all rounder. hes been in the England lineup since such a young age (for average international players anyway) that we forget that hes still younger than most players who would be making their debut. and hes got an impressive haul of wickets, and every now and again puts on awesome batting displays. under pressure he struggles, but thats got to be something that will change with age and experience. his dad was an opener for England and averaged almost 40. Stuart averages over 30 and has 58 wickets in 21 matches at just 23 years of age! his batting average is only 3 shy of Ravi Bopara (supposedly a number 3!!), and his bowling average is only 3 behind Jimmy Anderson who is probably Englands best bowler in the last 18 months.
 
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