Wrist Spin Bowling

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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah I'm wondering now whether I should bowl at all this Sunday. Having read about this injury it sounds as though it's similar in some ways to an achilles injury and I've been through that 5 or 6 years ago. I initially damaged my achilles (a tear) and then rested it for a week and it felt a lot better, so I went out and did the exact same sport and re-tore it seemingly 1/4 of the way through it's repair phase when the achilles is ultra vulnerable and in doing so made the tear so bad that I had to wear one of those big Storm trooper boots for 8 months only able to take it off at night when I was asleep.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I.V.A.R;352483 said:
Hello to everyone

I bought Peter Philpott's book and have started the under arm activity. I want to move on to the round arm but how round arm should it be? below or above the perpendicular?

I just keep bowling top spin when I try it round arm or over arm and am keen to get it right from the start as I've changed to Leg Break at the start of this year.
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Welcome. I would say start below the perpendicular ( horizontal?)and then raise it to above. Slightly above perpendicular is probably close to the roundarm Philpott means. The difference between underarm and roundarm is the roundarm has the back of the hand facing up and the legbreak spins from under the hand.

The underarm, roundarm then overarm routine is great for learning the wrongun as well. For a roundarm wrongun, the back of the hand faces the ground and the ball is spun above the hand, the elbow will point upwards. Start off over short distances of a few yards at first before increasing the length. Bowling to someone or against a wall over 4 or 5 yards to begin with.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Regarding going to the doctors I'm one of those blokes that saves up 2 or 3 injuries or conditions before I feel it's justified or I'm in agony or bleeding all over the place. But you're probably right I should go as he may say 'You must stop bowling NOW or you'll never be able to do it again'.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;352453 said:
This is another beauty of a video of clarrie bowling, with comments from bradman. Maybe another for the leg spin website dave?
Bowling - Bradman on Grimmett: A Champion Leg Spinner - CricketCrowd – Rich Cricket ...
As Macca said he bowled very full.
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Here he is a view of Grimmett side on. in full flight from the same site. Good one saddo. Classic Tests (Black and White) - Victor Richardson leads Aus to 4-0 series win (1936) - ...
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I've just finished off my main blog tonight (Sundays match) and remembered that I may had two wickets with my Flippers LBW. One of them was plumb and the other was 95% certain. The plumb one I kind of murmured 'Isn't that LBW and my mate the Wizard at Mid On half heartedly shouted Owzat on my behalf. The 95% one as well I turned to the umpire and said 'LBW'? Obviously this is something I need to work on, so I've got to be a lot more confident in asking and put some effort into it. Retrospectively I reckon if I'd done the whole Shane Warne/Stuart McGill type thing the bats may have been given LBW?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

At last back on-line after an absence of about a week, I'll be on later for more comments but good to see the Grimmett footage still coming in I liked the end to end shots a few post back and I've just read an account in the Ashley Malletts book written by someone back in the 30's that agreed with our comments about how unorthodox his bowling style looks. The bloke said something along the lines that initially you'd s****** at his technique but then soon change your mind as you saw the spell unfold.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Here is one of clarrie again at about 1 minute 10. his arm when he releases the ball is level or lower than his shoulder. Definitely not vertical. What do you think Macca, as you said it is vertical. I find it difficult to understand if this shows him bowling/releasing the ball when vertical. Seeing his action do you still rate him highly? After all it is results and not style that counts isn't it. Macca have you ever seen anyone at top level bowl with such a low arm . It is nearly underarm.Interesting to hear any one elses analysis of his bowling eg lack of verticality of the front hand, no excessive burst of energy while bowling, little pivot, no very obvious wrist flick. I am looking forward to what everyone thinks of the different parts of his bowling action.

Has anyone tried this extreme round arm action, and what were your observations. Thank you.http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=74609
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;352503 said:
Here he is a view of Grimmett side on. in full flight from the same site. Good one saddo. Classic Tests (Black and White) - Victor Richardson leads Aus to 4-0 series win (1936) - ...
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The Grimmett side on stuff comes at about 1:32 in this clip after a little interview with Bill Brown. It is the best clip of them all so far I reckon. You can see how the old backfoot no-ball law affected the bowlers style slightly. I cant thank Saddo enough for finding all these sources.

Today I am going to get a load of books by the guys who knew the most about Grimmetts and Peppers bowling. Whitington, Miller, Beames, Hasset and Bradman.

My problem is my memory because I know I have read lots of stories of Grimmett and Peppers flipper. Grimmett must have shown Pepper how to finger click spin before Pepper went to the war and Pepper must have practised it in between fighting japs and krauts ,a bit like Iverson. Pepper must have been some big hitter he broke the clock at Lords with a 6 and put another one over the roof and into Trafalgar Sqare! I dont know the layout of London, is that possible?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;351575 said:
Here is one of clarrie again at about 1 minute 10. his arm when he releases the ball is level or lower than his shoulder. Definitely not vertical. What do you think Macca, as you said it is vertical. I find it difficult to understand if this shows him bowling/releasing the ball when vertical. Seeing his action do you still rate him highly? After all it is results and not style that counts isn't it. Macca have you ever seen anyone at top level bowl with such a low arm . It is nearly underarm.Interesting to hear any one elses analysis of his bowling eg lack of verticality of the front hand, no excessive burst of energy while bowling, little pivot, no very obvious wrist flick. I am looking forward to what everyone thinks of the different parts of his bowling action.

Has anyone tried this extreme round arm action, and what were your observations. Thank you.British Pathe - THEY'RE WELL AFTER THOSE "ASHES"
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In that clip Grimmett is just rolling his arm over , or rather, round. He was aware, as an amateur film maker himself, of the ability of others to analyse his bowling from motion pictures, especially from nearer than the boundary. Much the same when he was bowling in the nets.

The clips of his test bowling show him mostly not much more than roundarm but sometimes relatively vertical at release and he used this to his advantage, he said he didn't mind the batsman thinking he was too roundarm, and maybe could not flight the ball. Grimmett did maintain he was not as roundarm as people thought, but it is hard to imagine being any more roundarm than what he was.

Lots of people say he walked a bit like like Groucho Marx. At delivery his knee bends his front leg collapses, making it hard for him to drive up and over his left leg. He does not use his left arm like the other great spinners. It was a completely unique method in lots of ways. McCool was roundarm, more than McGill, who was considered fairly roundarm.

The most important thing was how he got his arm, wrist and fingers working in that order. He got the ball to absolutely fizz with spin. Umpires and nonstrikers could hear the ball buzz like a bee when he released it. A similar noise was made by both O' Rielly and Warne.

That is what amazes me about Grimmett, he looks like a pie chucker from the lower grades yet he is still the fastest bowler to reach 200 hundred test wickets and will always be the first to have got there.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I'm about a 3rd of the way through Malletts book on Grimmett and have read the description of the ball humming as it flew through the air which I find incredible. I was going to ask has anyone else experienced this at all - I certainly haven't.

With regards his action and in a way I'm loathed to say this but the girl that was in the team we played last Sunday bowled almost in the exact way as depicted in this footage and she apparently took 3 wickets the week before in her 3 overs! It is a very odd bowling action which as Macca has said wouldn't look amiss at club match and have everyone s******ing in the pavillion at 'their pie chucker'.

Saddo I think you should stop digging out film of Grimmett and just leave the images of him to our imagination as we read about him and view his stats!!!!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;352583 said:
The Grimmett side on stuff comes at about 1:32 in this clip after a little interview with Bill Brown. It is the best clip of them all so far I reckon. You can see how the old backfoot no-ball law affected the bowlers style slightly
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Thank you nice clip as usual. Personally I really liked the one with the wicket keeper, I could see the difference in flight. I was also amazed at how full he was bowling, about a yard from the batting crease at most.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

How weird is that! The forum wont let me use a word that's used to describe underhand laughing at people behind their backs that rhymes with a derogatory word used by rascists!

On the subject of my arm it looks like I should stop bowling for at least a couple of months and allow it to repair itself. I'm going to take Macca's advice and get to a Dr and get it looked at properly and see what he says, but reading about it tonight it does sound like I should stop bowling and even avoid things like turning keys in locks and turning door knobs etc.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;352583 said:
Today I am going to get a load of books by the guys who knew the most about Grimmetts and Peppers bowling. Whitington, Miller, Beames, Hasset and Bradman.
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Miller and Hassett were batsmen in his era I recall. Grimmett seemed th have a very high opinion of hassett. I am not so sure about the others . Did they play in his side?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;351618 said:
Saddo I think you should stop digging out film of Grimmett and just leave the images of him to our imagination as we read about him and view his stats!!!!
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I was fascinated with the action as when I had tried to bowl the big leg break with a bit of backspin (the bowl towards yourself) , the only way I could do it was with an action like his without ever having seen him before. I find that bowling in this way I get more side spin than more overarm, but never having seen anyone bowl like that I thought it was all wrong. MacGill is round arm but he is closer to warne as regards his arm than grimmett.


Yetsrday I had half an hour of practise, it turned MUCH more even though it was on concrete which i gather is more responsive to turn than grass wickets, and also it travelled much faster than my stock delivery which is mainly topspin with some sidespin, it was also fuller than my topspinner which Macca swears is better. I can vouch for the last statement as yesterday seeing rashid bowl, when ever he was fractionally short the dutchmen rocked on the back foot and cut him with ease.

Back to grimmett, I was let down initially on seeing his action, but eventually noted how rhythmic his delivery was.

Funnily enough on the same site there were no videos of Philpott or Jenner, possibly as these were more recent and possibly they never toured the UK. I am sure Macca can fill our knowledge gap here.

As regards O'Reilly he seems to be a medium or possibly medium fast bowler from what I could see.

There was also a small clip of Iverson, which after having read the biography of, I am very sympathetic to.

So do not worry guys no more videos from me unless it is something earth shattering, but I thought we had been discussing grimmett for so long and had no real idea what his action was like. I had thought that no clips were on the net, and was happy to have found them and shared them. If a website on leg spin is being constructed, having access/reference to these clips should be a precious addition that enhance the quality of the site in my opinion.On the other hand they may deflate the mystery/aura around the past greats as we may imagine that they did something out of the ordinary compared to modern day bowlers. I understand daves point that we like to have heroes the way we imagine them, and sometimes reality jarrs with what our fantasy suggests.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;352583 said:
cl

My problem is my memory because I know I have read lots of stories of Grimmett and Peppers flipper. Grimmett must have shown Pepper how to finger click spin before Pepper went to the war and Pepper must have practised it in between fighting japs and krauts ,a bit like Iverson.
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These anecdotes you are unearthing must be included in the leg spin website as they add spice to the theory. They are really beautiful and get me day dreaming imagining what it was like to see these legends face each other.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;351617 said:
Lots of people say he walked a bit like like Groucho Marx. At delivery his knee bends his front leg collapses, making it hard for him to drive up and over his left leg. He does not use his left arm like the other great spinners. It was a completely unique method in lots of ways. McCool was roundarm, more than McGill, who was considered fairly roundarm.

That is what amazes me about Grimmett, he looks like a pie chucker from the lower grades yet he is still the fastest bowler to reach 200 hundred test wickets and will always be the first to have got there.
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I doubt the batsmen were in the mood to laugh though. Quite funny the way you describe his action. You are right though his results are unparallelled, and we like the fact that a nerdish looking person, with a small frame could terrorise the giants of his time by the artistry of his bowling.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

There's so many anecdotes that could be included, just in the book by Ashley Mallett there's loads of little interesting things I keep making notes of and I'm only about half way through it. It's going to be interesting to see what Macca's research comes up with.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Good work to find those clips Saddo. I had not seen those on the net till you found them.

As a roundarm bowler you should get inspiration from his action. Considering his results it is a wonder more people have not tried to copy it, though I do remember lots of old guys bowling similar to that including my dad when I was a kid.

It is like the Jeff Thompson slinging action, I always wonder why more people did not copy that action as well. Too much coaching perhaps?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

What is the reason we do not warm so much to O'Reilly, but really go weak in the legs when we talk about grimmett? The tiger would be roaring if he had a look in here.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Here in the UK there's a cricket history documentary series being shown over a series of weeks leading up to the Ashes, I'm hoping that there'll be some Grimmett stuff on there. If there is I'll let you know. 1 down so far next installment tomorrow night.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I think because I'm fairly ignorant of his skills although I am learning, but more because he was a faster bowler - more like medium pace speed and therefore less like what I do personally. I haven't quite got the sense that he was as anywhere as enigmatic as Grimmett.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;352587 said:
Thank you nice clip as usual. Personally I really liked the one with the wicket keeper, I could see the difference in flight. I was also amazed at how full he was bowling, about a yard from the batting crease at most.
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Perhaps the clip is out of context. He may be demonstrating something or the film editor picked a full one.
Neville Cardus wrote he never saw Grimmett bowl one full toss in all the overs he watched of Grimmetts bowling. Grimmett read the Cardus article and in the next match, with Cardus present ,Grimmett set up an English batsman with a series of short balls and then bowled him with a full toss. After play Grimmett sought out Cardus and told him " See, I can bowl a full toss!"
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;352490 said:
Welcome. I would say start below the perpendicular ( horizontal?)and then raise it to above. Slightly above perpendicular is probably close to the roundarm Philpott means. The difference between underarm and roundarm is the roundarm has the back of the hand facing up and the legbreak spins from under the hand.

The underarm, roundarm then overarm routine is great for learning the wrongun as well. For a roundarm wrongun, the back of the hand faces the ground and the ball is spun above the hand, the elbow will point upwards. Start off over short distances of a few yards at first before increasing the length. Bowling to someone or against a wall over 4 or 5 yards to begin with.
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I.V.A.R , are you using the philpott method to get away from topspin and get some legspin? there is plenty of stuff back in this thread to help out. Maybe you should get an avatar of Sir Viv's bowling grip and join in and tell us of your progress from time to time?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Well at last I have found a name for the Grimmett "mystery ball" Bradman says in " Farewell to Cricket" it was called , by the players of the time, Grimmetts " flicker ". This was the overspinning reverse flipper that Jenner and Mallett have told me is impossible to bowl!

I am on the verge of cracking this and so far the villian of the tale is Richie Benaud. In 1976 Grimmett told Fingleton that Benaud was taking all the credit for the invention of the flipper. Fingleton did not seem to believe Grimmett!

Benaud claims in several books that the great innovators in spin were Bosqanet,Iverson, Gleeson, and Warne. Amazingly he leaves out Grimmett, who worked out the Iverson method before Iverson and then invented several balls including " the flipper" without which Benaud and Warne in particular would not have had. Warne did not make any innovations , he was just the supreme practitioner.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Hello people not much from me at the minute as my internet at home is screwed but I played Sunday with the bad arm which held out and I took 4 for 27 off 7 overs including 2 wicket maidens! Best ever performance to date. See the blog (which still needs editing) Wrist Spin Bowling
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I wonder why Benaud doesn't include Grimmett? That's kind of odd and who is Fingleton? Also isn't one of Benuads claims - that it took him 4 years to develop the Flipper and in making that claim it kind of suggests that he was a key figure in it's development, so if you're not aware of Grimmett you'd assume that it was Benaud that came up with the Flipper in the first instance?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;351972 said:
Hello people not much from me at the minute as my internet at home is screwed but I played Sunday with the bad arm which held out and I took 4 for 27 off 7 overs including 2 wicket maidens! Best ever performance to date. See the blog (which still needs editing) Wrist Spin Bowling
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You must have swallowed that Grimmett book. Your cumulative figures for the season are looking great so far. It sounds like you need to appeal a bit more convincingly for those lbw's mate.

In club cricket ,after he retired from first class cricket, Grimmett had the umpires on side so much he would sometimes nominate to the umpire what ball he was about to bowl and the method of dismissal it would produce and on at least one occassion the umpire himself went up and roared an appeal and Grimmett put his finger up and turned to the umpire said " That, mr umpire is out, plumb lbw!". I would not advise any one else to try that though.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;352642 said:
Well at last I have found a name for the Grimmett "mystery ball" Bradman says in " Farewell to Cricket" it was called , by the players of the time, Grimmetts " flicker ". This was the overspinning reverse flipper that Jenner and Mallett have told me is impossible to bowl!



QUOTE]


Instinctively from the word flicker, I would understand this to be closer to the ball Iverson flicked out of his hand via the middle finger. Just a suggestion. Macca are you buying these things or do you get them from a library?

By the way was seeing one of the grimmett videos with the wicket keeper, his bowling hand goes close to his left kidney region and the wrist 'flops'. I think this helped him load so that he could 'throw' the ball as dave was once told, thus getting much more sidespin. I tried it and the seam pointed more towards gully than my normal leg break that points to first slip ie I got more sidespin,. Further proof was it travelled further and faster so indicating it had more sidespin than the stock delivery that is mainly topspin with some sidespin
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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;351972 said:
Hello people not much from me at the minute as my internet at home is screwed but I played Sunday with the bad arm which held out and I took 4 for 27 off 7 overs including 2 wicket maidens! Best ever performance to date. See the blog (which still needs editing) Wrist Spin Bowling
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Very impressive, well done. Well you are still at the prime of your life, Grimmett had missed the ashes at 48 years despite having had a good year in his domestic season, the ashes are round the corner and england needs a surprise weapon... beware australia.

Joking apart, you deserve it as you practice so hard. Interesting if you could tell us where you pitched the ball, and which length especially for the wickets. I know you have it in your blog but I have a short attention span.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Here in a wisden of 1962 it is clearly stated that he learnt it from dooland ie he did not invent it himself. Philpott seems to hint that what he might have invented is a variant of the backspinner/slider as far as I know. I do not think I ever read that he claimed that he invented the flipper but I may be wrong.http://www.cricinfo.com/wisdenalmanack/content/story/154567.html

What warne 'invented' was the big legbreak with the seam spinning at right angles to the flight. I have never seen any contemporary leggie bowl with the seam that way. Funnily enough Harbhajan Singh gets the seam that way for the big offbreak(obviously with revs the opposite way). Funnily enough gavascar when commenting said it was the perfect seam for a topspinner.... could not believe my ears.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I am reading these older Philpott books here and he thinks the flipper is an overspinner. it is not the backspinning flipper! Bradman said the players of the time called Grimmetts mystery ball the flicker. Bradman mentions Iverson as well later on in the chapter but he is talking of Grimmetts reverse flipper when he calls it the flicker. Bradman calls it a flipper later on in life, in his letter to Mallett, but just after he retired he called it the " flicker" This is just before Iverson came on the scene. I am going to call it a flicker until I find what Grimmett called it other than mystery ball.

Tommorrow I will have Doolands own story from a Jack Pollard book from 1972. In the same book John Gleeson describes the flipper as an overspinner! They all say it also turns like an offbreak on occassions , just like we have found ourselves. again something Mallett and Jenner wrote to me was impossible.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;352238 said:
Never heard of this, I had thought it was a misprint for the flipper.
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I thought that too. I also thought it may be a name someone had given to the " reverse flipper" for want of another term to describe Grimmetts actual mystery ball, which is the overspinner. I thought it might also be a term used in India for a certain delivery?

I am getting somewhere in my tracking down the true history of the flipper and Cec "the ox" Pepper is turning out to be a key link in the story. Grimmett showed him how to bowl the finger clicking deliveries and Pepper delivered his flipper as an overspinner as well, just like Grimmett describes his mystery ball and not the Dooland /Benaud/Warne backspinner that Grimmett also invented but hardly used.

Cec Pepper was another one who stood up to Bradman and payed the price and the incident that caused his falling out with Bradman was started by Pepper bowling a series of " mystery balls " at Bradman and having his lbw appeals turned down in a famous ex servicemans game after the war. Whittington in the slips described them as topspinners and Keith Miller in the grandstand thought they were flippers, but they were probably both right as they were topspinning flippers.

Bradman also credited Pepper with having a well disguised off-break, which I reckon is Peppers' overspinning flipper gone slightly wrong, which as we have seen ourselves, does produce an off break.

There is still a lot I have to research to fill in the gaps of the story of the flipper, but I have found lots of incredible stuff and ,when I have finished, it is going to make for an amazing tale and a lot more complicated then the accepted history. Also the fact the story involves Bradman and Warne should make it of interest to a wider audience than just legspinners. Lots more to come.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The photos of the flipper in Philpotts coaching manuals from 1972 and 75 show him delivering the flicker not the flipper! In one he says it is flicked out like an offspinner, which is the reverse flipper.

I have found a goldmine of old cricket books at the old teachers college which is attached to the uni, everything I need. Percy Beames is another writer who should tell us something. Moyes is another. I cant wait till tommorrow. I have made a list off all the books I need and they are all available to me, some are not for loan as they are rare
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;352655 said:
Here in a wisden of 1962 it is clearly stated that he learnt it from dooland Wisden - Richie Benaud
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More evidence Saddo, thanks. They are talking about a topspinning offspinning flipper and not the backspinning one Warne made famous ! I notice he does not credit Grimmett for its invention, but he at least does credit Dooland.
 
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