Wrist Spin Bowling

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I thought that too. I also thought it may be a name someone had given to the " reverse flipper" for want of another term to describe Grimmetts actual mystery ball, which is the overspinner. I thought it might also be a term used in India for a certain delivery?

I am getting somewhere in my tracking down the true history of the flipper and Cec "the ox" Pepper is turning out to be a key link in the story. Grimmett showed him how to bowl the finger clicking deliveries and Pepper delivered his flipper as an overspinner as well, just like Grimmett describes his mystery ball and not the Dooland /Benaud/Warne backspinner that Grimmett also invented but hardly used.

Cec Pepper was another one who stood up to Bradman and payed the price and the incident that caused his falling out with Bradman was started by Pepper bowling a series of " mystery balls " at Bradman and having his lbw appeals turned down in a famous ex servicemans game after the war. Whittington in the slips described them as topspinners and Keith Miller in the grandstand thought they were flippers, but they were probably both right as they were topspinning flippers.

Bradman also credited Pepper with having a well disguised off-break, which I reckon is Peppers' overspinning flipper gone slightly wrong, which as we have seen ourselves, does produce an off break.

There is still a lot I have to research to fill in the gaps of the story of the flipper, but I have found lots of incredible stuff and ,when I have finished, it is going to make for an amazing tale and a lot more complicated then the accepted history. Also the fact the story involves Bradman and Warne should make it of interest to a wider audience than just legspinners. Lots more to come.

This is getting more interesting and intriguing. Give us more Macca

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Another good game today - Wrist Spin Bowling: Stop Press - Thompson takes 4 for 32 off 5 overs

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

With regards Saddo's query about the line and length. I aim to get the ball on the Off-stump if I'm bowling these new leg breaks and the same with the Top-spinners. The Flipper kind of middle stump and the only Googly went wide but then turned in very nicely. I was surprised myself as to how accurate I was! With regards length I'm crap at judging length I'd guess I was aiming to get the ball into a muddy patch that was about a yard in front of the popping crease. Anything shorter and they were going on to the back foot and hitting it for fours. All the leg side balls were dispatched with ease, so I gave up that option fairly quickly.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Another good game today - Wrist Spin Bowling: Stop Press - Thompson takes 4 for 32 off 5 overs

Man you are on fire and you haven't started wearing the cap and long sleeves yet. I cant wait to read the latest blog entry on this one. I read were Tony Lock used to wear long sleeves as it gave more protection for his arms when he went for caught and bowled and his elbows hit the ground and not to disguise his wrists or maybe bent arm.

 

[I.V.A.R]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Hello to everyone

I bought Peter Philpott's book and have started the under arm activity. I want to move on to the round arm but how round arm should it be? below or above the perpendicular?

I just keep bowling top spin when I try it round arm or over arm and am keen to get it right from the start as I've changed to Leg Break at the start of this year.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

So you have taken 8 wickets for 76 runs off 19 overs so far ?

This photo of Philpott releasing a flipper is definately the overspinning flicker. The thumb is on top of the ball at release and the fingers are on the outside, completely upside down to say Warnes backspinning flipper. No wonder he describes it as an offspinners ball.

Bradman said Grimmett disguised this flicker delivery by a quick turn of the wrist at the end to make it appear as a leg break. The backspinning flipper is easier to disguise but can still be picked out of the hand if you can watch the thumb closely.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Hello to everyone

I bought Peter Philpott's book and have started the under arm activity. I want to move on to the round arm but how round arm should it be? below or above the perpendicular?

I just keep bowling top spin when I try it round arm or over arm and am keen to get it right from the start as I've changed to Leg Break at the start of this year.

Welcome. I would say start below the perpendicular ( horizontal?)and then raise it to above. Slightly above perpendicular is probably close to the roundarm Philpott means. The difference between underarm and roundarm is the roundarm has the back of the hand facing up and the legbreak spins from under the hand.

The underarm, roundarm then overarm routine is great for learning the wrongun as well. For a roundarm wrongun, the back of the hand faces the ground and the ball is spun above the hand, the elbow will point upwards. Start off over short distances of a few yards at first before increasing the length. Bowling to someone or against a wall over 4 or 5 yards to begin with.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

God I am gobsmacked, davey boy. First team ahoy. Any LBW today?

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

This is another beauty of a video of clarrie bowling, with comments from bradman. Maybe another for the leg spin website dave?
Bowling - Bradman on Grimmett: A Champion Leg Spinner - CricketCrowd – Rich Cricket ...
As Macca said he bowled very full.

Here he is a view of Grimmett side on. in full flight from the same site. Good one saddo. Classic Tests (Black and White) - Victor Richardson leads Aus to 4-0 series win (1936) - ...

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Do you mean the picture on his manual on leg spin ie the bible. When i saw the picture the first time i could not understand why the ball was held in that way. It looked so different from the warne/jenner one. In this book though he calls it the flipper.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

At last back on-line after an absence of about a week, I'll be on later for more comments but good to see the Grimmett footage still coming in I liked the end to end shots a few post back and I've just read an account in the Ashley Malletts book written by someone back in the 30's that agreed with our comments about how unorthodox his bowling style looks. The bloke said something along the lines that initially you'd s****** at his technique but then soon change your mind as you saw the spell unfold.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Do you mean the picture on his manual on leg spin ie the bible. When i saw the picture the first time i could not understand why the ball was held in that way. It looked so different from the warne/jenner one. In this book though he calls it the flipper.

Yes there is something strange going on. Does Philpott describe the flipper as a backspinner anywhere? Pre warne I dont think so. If you follow his instructions and photos in his 1973 and 75 you wont get a backspinner but an overspinner. Any way I hope to have Doolands story of the flipper in his own words in a few hours.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Here he is a view of Grimmett side on. in full flight from the same site. Good one saddo. Classic Tests (Black and White) - Victor Richardson leads Aus to 4-0 series win (1936) - ...

The Grimmett side on stuff comes at about 1:32 in this clip after a little interview with Bill Brown. It is the best clip of them all so far I reckon. You can see how the old backfoot no-ball law affected the bowlers style slightly. I cant thank Saddo enough for finding all these sources.

Today I am going to get a load of books by the guys who knew the most about Grimmetts and Peppers bowling. Whitington, Miller, Beames, Hasset and Bradman.

My problem is my memory because I know I have read lots of stories of Grimmett and Peppers flipper. Grimmett must have shown Pepper how to finger click spin before Pepper went to the war and Pepper must have practised it in between fighting japs and krauts ,a bit like Iverson. Pepper must have been some big hitter he broke the clock at Lords with a 6 and put another one over the roof and into Trafalgar Sqare! I dont know the layout of London, is that possible?

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Dave , I cant find my other of copy " spinners yarn" in the chapter on backspinners and flippers does he nominate the flipper as a backspinner at any stage? I cant remember.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

No he'd have had to hit it a mile I reckon, I'll have a look at the map - no I'm thinking The Oval - Lords is further away
Update my blog for last Sunday at last along with pic's Wrist Spin Bowling: Grays & Chadwell V's Belvedere I just hope I can maintain the current form tomorrow.

Just looked it's a good Mile or more away from Lords!

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yes there is something strange going on. Does Philpott describe the flipper as a backspinner anywhere? Pre warne I dont think so. If you follow his instructions and photos in his 1973 and 75 you wont get a backspinner but an overspinner. Any way I hope to have Doolands story of the flipper in his own words in a few hours.

I do not have the book with me, but he differentiates the flipper from other backspinners. He says Benaud called the other backspinner besides the flipper as the overspinning backspinner. But as discussed he also says that all top leggies had other variations of the backspinner that they guarded religously. He states that he started experimenting with backspinners towards the twilight of his carreer and laments that he would have been much more successful had he discovered this before. This though is all from memory.

It is interesting though that he talks about the flipper in different ways before and after warne. Who thought warne the flipper and slider? Was it jenner, or philpott, that is interesting as well. Maybe Benaud chipped in as well as I think jenner did not know how to bowl it.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The Grimmett side on stuff comes at about 1:32 in this clip after a little interview with Bill Brown. It is the best clip of them all so far I reckon. You can see how the old backfoot no-ball law affected the bowlers style slightly

Thank you nice clip as usual. Personally I really liked the one with the wicket keeper, I could see the difference in flight. I was also amazed at how full he was bowling, about a yard from the batting crease at most.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Do most of the descriptions of the backspinning flipper say it will turn like a little legbreak if it is not delivered with the seam perfectly aligned? All the descriptions of the flicker ( overspinner) say it turns as an offbreak if it does not set out from the hand with perfect overspin. Dave as our resident flipper bowler should know.

flicker may not be a good name for the overspinner it may lead to confusion with Iverson or Mendis, but it is what Bradman and his contemporaries called Grimmetts mystery ball. I still cant find who started calling the backspinning delivery a flipper.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Today I am going to get a load of books by the guys who knew the most about Grimmetts and Peppers bowling. Whitington, Miller, Beames, Hasset and Bradman.

Miller and Hassett were batsmen in his era I recall. Grimmett seemed th have a very high opinion of hassett. I am not so sure about the others . Did they play in his side?

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Do most of the descriptions of the backspinning flipper say it will turn like a little legbreak if it is not delivered with the seam perfectly aligned? All the descriptions of the flicker ( overspinner) say it turns as an offbreak if it does not set out from the hand with perfect overspin. Dave as our resident flipper bowler should know.

flicker may not be a good name for the overspinner it may lead to confusion with Iverson or Mendis, but it is what Bradman and his contemporaries called Grimmetts mystery ball. I still cant find who started calling the backspinning delivery a flipper.

Dave's apparently mainly goes straight on or has some legspin. Mine when i get it right has offspin. So it all depends on the wrist

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

cl

My problem is my memory because I know I have read lots of stories of Grimmett and Peppers flipper. Grimmett must have shown Pepper how to finger click spin before Pepper went to the war and Pepper must have practised it in between fighting japs and krauts ,a bit like Iverson.

These anecdotes you are unearthing must be included in the leg spin website as they add spice to the theory. They are really beautiful and get me day dreaming imagining what it was like to see these legends face each other.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I do not have the book with me, but he differentiates the flipper from other backspinners. He says Benaud called the other backspinner besides the flipper as the overspinning backspinner. But as discussed he also says that all top leggies had other variations of the backspinner that they guarded religously. He states that he started experimenting with backspinners towards the twilight of his carreer and laments that he would have been much more successful had he discovered this before. This though is all from memory.

It is interesting though that he talks about the flipper in different ways before and after warne. Who thought warne the flipper and slider? Was it jenner, or philpott, that is interesting as well. Maybe Benaud chipped in as well as I think jenner did not know how to bowl it.

Bob Simpson said he showed the slider " backspinning topspinner" to Warne. Simpson was surprised no-one had shown Warne untill then, this is before his test debut and after Warne had learnt the flipper.

Jack Potter taught Warne the flipper properly, but Jim Higgs had shown Warne how to bowl it a couple of years before that but Warne could not get it right. Potter says warne picked it up in a week but not from scratch as he had mucked around with it a bit before that after Graf got Higgs to try and teach Warne the flipper.

Potter said Warne was wildly innaccurate at first and the ball would hit the sides and the top of the net until he could control the flipper. but he worked on it with a tennis ball ( as did Grimmett and Bosanquet in their experiments) and cracked how to do it. The ball he aquired turned deadly once he mastered it.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

There's so many anecdotes that could be included, just in the book by Ashley Mallett there's loads of little interesting things I keep making notes of and I'm only about half way through it. It's going to be interesting to see what Macca's research comes up with.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Here your man potter is mentioned by gideon haigh who wrote the book about iverson. He seemed to be the first to have bowled the doosra according to this article http://www.cricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/347392.html

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

What is the reason we do not warm so much to O'Reilly, but really go weak in the legs when we talk about grimmett? The tiger would be roaring if he had a look in here.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Blogs updated with the details for the bowling - the highlights are that this puts me in the top 7 bowlers in the club, but if you read through it there's some details for one of the kids in the team and his stats for the last week are staggering! I also had a bat today and ended up not out and with my highest batting score for G&CCC - but don't get too excited my previous high was only 7!

Wrist Spin Bowling: Grays & Chadwell v Eastside

It's 1.30 am and I gotta go to bed!

No LBW's . This means I've bowled 19 overs, conceded 76 runs and taken 8 wickets, so it looks like I need to tighten up on my runs conceded?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I think because I'm fairly ignorant of his skills although I am learning, but more because he was a faster bowler - more like medium pace speed and therefore less like what I do personally. I haven't quite got the sense that he was as anywhere as enigmatic as Grimmett.

 

[The Edge Of Willow]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Well done Dave. Can we expect to see you in the Ashes this year?

It has been very quite on the bowling front for me. Later in the week, I'm going to have my first serious bowl in about 4 weeks. My sprained finger has finally returned to normal. It has been rather annoying. I'm looking forward to immensely.

I'm expecting to spray them all over the place though.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Thank you nice clip as usual. Personally I really liked the one with the wicket keeper, I could see the difference in flight. I was also amazed at how full he was bowling, about a yard from the batting crease at most.

Perhaps the clip is out of context. He may be demonstrating something or the film editor picked a full one.
Neville Cardus wrote he never saw Grimmett bowl one full toss in all the overs he watched of Grimmetts bowling. Grimmett read the Cardus article and in the next match, with Cardus present ,Grimmett set up an English batsman with a series of short balls and then bowled him with a full toss. After play Grimmett sought out Cardus and told him " See, I can bowl a full toss!"

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Bruce Dooland wrote a short coaching chapter in 1958, where he sets out his method of legspin. He is a disciple of Grimmett and one who recommends long hours of practise. He says a leggie should feel more tired after his net session than he would after a big match. His description of his flipper is convoluted and slightly confusing but he does say enough to make it clear his was a backspinner.
Bradman wrote a legspin coaching chapter in his " Art of Cricket" which is very interesting ,especially as Bradman was a legspinner and played in the same club, state and national team as Grimmett. There is a lot of stuff about Grimmetts bowling, including field settings that Grimmett used.
Bradman talks about drift and flight from spin bowlers he calls drift " spin swerve" he describes the effect offspin legspin and topspin have on the spun ball but then tells us not to worry about backspins effect as no bowler in cricket can impart enough backspin on a cricket ball to effect it unlike a golf ball or tennis ball!
Well Warne could but I also take that as evidence that Grimmett hardly ever bowled the backspinning flipper except as a rare variation which is what Grimmett himself said,because Bradman would have reached a different conclusion on the effects of backspin if he had seen the flipper.
The only reference Bradman makes to a flipper is that he calls a "flipper" a legbreak bowler that uses mainly his fingers and not his wrists. These "flippers" as Bradman calls them dont flick their wrists but merely roll or flip them. He says these legspinners are more accurate but less dangerous than the big wrist flickers, He cites Englands Eric Hollies as a "flipper". Bradman elsewhere says Grimmetts mystery ball was called the " flicker" and it sounds like the overspinning reverse flipper. Bradman only calls it a flipper in later life, after Benaud and perhaps even Warne , I have to check the latter. Very interesting.

I am going to get Colin Mc Cools autobiography today and see if he has any answers as well

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Welcome. I would say start below the perpendicular ( horizontal?)and then raise it to above. Slightly above perpendicular is probably close to the roundarm Philpott means. The difference between underarm and roundarm is the roundarm has the back of the hand facing up and the legbreak spins from under the hand.

The underarm, roundarm then overarm routine is great for learning the wrongun as well. For a roundarm wrongun, the back of the hand faces the ground and the ball is spun above the hand, the elbow will point upwards. Start off over short distances of a few yards at first before increasing the length. Bowling to someone or against a wall over 4 or 5 yards to begin with.

I.V.A.R , are you using the philpott method to get away from topspin and get some legspin? there is plenty of stuff back in this thread to help out. Maybe you should get an avatar of Sir Viv's bowling grip and join in and tell us of your progress from time to time?

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Hey Dave, I would have verbally reminded Taj that s**t bowling beats s**t batting every time. That would have to have been your sweetest wicket so far, having the last laugh and all ?

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Well at last I have found a name for the Grimmett "mystery ball" Bradman says in " Farewell to Cricket" it was called , by the players of the time, Grimmetts " flicker ". This was the overspinning reverse flipper that Jenner and Mallett have told me is impossible to bowl!

I am on the verge of cracking this and so far the villian of the tale is Richie Benaud. In 1976 Grimmett told Fingleton that Benaud was taking all the credit for the invention of the flipper. Fingleton did not seem to believe Grimmett!

Benaud claims in several books that the great innovators in spin were Bosqanet,Iverson, Gleeson, and Warne. Amazingly he leaves out Grimmett, who worked out the Iverson method before Iverson and then invented several balls including " the flipper" without which Benaud and Warne in particular would not have had. Warne did not make any innovations , he was just the supreme practitioner.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah definitely Macca, but I'm a bit Grimmettesque on that front, I don't respond to that kind of stuff verbally but then would look to prove otherwise as I did! That was very satisfying I have to say. I think after all my hard work trying to correct my Googly syndrome and all the hours of practice I put in I do seem to be at the minute finally reaping the rewards. How long it'll last I don't know because I'm still kind of half in mind that this is a fluke phase. But then again I now seem to be bowling with what seems to be a proportionally larger knowledge of strategies and options that are available to me and a lot of this is down to reading about Grimmett. One of the key things that I've got from the book that I've just finished tonight is his basic strategy. Be accurate and be able to put the ball where you want it, but vary the speed, flight and length, if you can do that you haven't got to get it to spin a great deal, just as long as it does spin. My experience to date is those attributes alone cause major concerns and as long as you're attacking the Off-stump it forces the bats to play the ball. If they're playing the ball and you're varying your basics it causes problems and as I'm seeing from my current form forces them into making mistakes.

But more interesting is that with each game I'm now seeing other options, I've noticed that with an Off-side field they (batsmen) try and get any ball that goes anywhere near the middle or leg stump off down the Legside. It struck me yesterday before I bowled Taj that this was an option he was looking to use and if he'd continued to persevere I thought I'd put a ball down Middle and Leg with Top Spin on it to try and force an edged ball out to Square Leg or maybe high one for the keeper. So I reckon I'm learning now at a fairly quick rate?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I wonder why Benaud doesn't include Grimmett? That's kind of odd and who is Fingleton? Also isn't one of Benuads claims - that it took him 4 years to develop the Flipper and in making that claim it kind of suggests that he was a key figure in it's development, so if you're not aware of Grimmett you'd assume that it was Benaud that came up with the Flipper in the first instance?

 

[Basit770]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Hi there,,, I am having consistency problems.

I bowl leg spin, and yesterday i had a net session with my team, but i wasnt very consistent.

Either wide down the leg side, or short. I have been trying to rotate my shoulders in the follow through just like the overseas pro at my club told me to.

Any ideas??

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Well at last I have found a name for the Grimmett "mystery ball" Bradman says in " Farewell to Cricket" it was called , by the players of the time, Grimmetts " flicker ". This was the overspinning reverse flipper that Jenner and Mallett have told me is impossible to bowl!



QUOTE]


Instinctively from the word flicker, I would understand this to be closer to the ball Iverson flicked out of his hand via the middle finger. Just a suggestion. Macca are you buying these things or do you get them from a library?

By the way was seeing one of the grimmett videos with the wicket keeper, his bowling hand goes close to his left kidney region and the wrist 'flops'. I think this helped him load so that he could 'throw' the ball as dave was once told, thus getting much more sidespin. I tried it and the seam pointed more towards gully than my normal leg break that points to first slip ie I got more sidespin,. Further proof was it travelled further and faster so indicating it had more sidespin than the stock delivery that is mainly topspin with some sidespin

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Hi there,,, I am having consistency problems.

I bowl leg spin, and yesterday i had a net session with my team, but i wasnt very consistent.

Either wide down the leg side, or short. I have been trying to rotate my shoulders in the follow through just like the overseas pro at my club told me to.

Any ideas??

The two worst co-ordinates for the legspinner short and wide of leg. Short is never good unless on purpose for some very rare purpose and wide of leg is only good if you can spin it a long way. There is no point bowling a topspinner down legside. Most legspinners keep that line for their big spinner.
I dont know if you have gone beyond bowling at targets but all bowlers should from time to time. I suppose some people would say just pitch it up and get it on the stumps. I find if you think spin up and in fact do spin up you wont pitch short, that is important and also if you try too hard to spin the ball without getting the sequence right you will underpitch. Trying to bowl too fast can cause direction problems.
Just remember it is preferably for the legspinner to bowl too full rather than too short and wide of off stump rather than leg. As a rough guide a good length for a legspinner around here is about three yards in front of the batsman and on the stumps this varies a lot though.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Here in a wisden of 1962 it is clearly stated that he learnt it from dooland ie he did not invent it himself. Philpott seems to hint that what he might have invented is a variant of the backspinner/slider as far as I know. I do not think I ever read that he claimed that he invented the flipper but I may be wrong.http://www.cricinfo.com/wisdenalmanack/content/story/154567.html

What warne 'invented' was the big legbreak with the seam spinning at right angles to the flight. I have never seen any contemporary leggie bowl with the seam that way. Funnily enough Harbhajan Singh gets the seam that way for the big offbreak(obviously with revs the opposite way). Funnily enough gavascar when commenting said it was the perfect seam for a topspinner.... could not believe my ears.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Basit, how much do you practice and are you messing around with the variations? If so give up on the variations and work on your leg break with 100% committment. Analyse what you do, try and film yourself with a camera phone and see what it is you're doing wrong. There's so many small things that you might not be getting right that have a massive affect on final outcome.

Now here's a radical departure from me and the others may disagree with what I'm now going to suggest. Maybe bowl seam up for a while and not try and spin it. Just bowl nice and easy and slow just so that you get a good action and a smooth run in. As Macca says get yourself a target (I use another ball) and try and get your accuracy improved so that it lands on or near the target ball and have it placed on the off-stump line. Then vary the speed of your deliveries, the length and the flight. Maybe do this for a few weeks until you reckon there's an improvement and you can almost hit the stumps or go over the top of them 6 or 7 times out of 10.

While you're doing that still keep flicking and spinning the ball and any thing else from hand to hand and from an outstretched arm inwards to your chest so that you keep your wrist supple and develop a good flick.

What do you reckon Macca and Saddo a good plan or is this flawed do your think?