Wrist Spin Bowling

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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I am reading these older Philpott books here and he thinks the flipper is an overspinner. it is not the backspinning flipper! Bradman said the players of the time called Grimmetts mystery ball the flicker. Bradman mentions Iverson as well later on in the chapter but he is talking of Grimmetts reverse flipper when he calls it the flicker. Bradman calls it a flipper later on in life, in his letter to Mallett, but just after he retired he called it the " flicker" This is just before Iverson came on the scene. I am going to call it a flicker until I find what Grimmett called it other than mystery ball.

Tommorrow I will have Doolands own story from a Jack Pollard book from 1972. In the same book John Gleeson describes the flipper as an overspinner! They all say it also turns like an offbreak on occassions , just like we have found ourselves. again something Mallett and Jenner wrote to me was impossible.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Dave I tidied up the flipper story and put it in the one word doc. I sent you another email with the update. It is half finished but I keep finding more stuff. I have to find out more about backspin/underspin and its effect on flight as well as some more history stuff.
One big bit of evidence though that Grimmett did not bowl a backspinner much is that Bradman in his chapter on legspin in the art of cricket , he explains the effect of leg, off, and topspin on drift and drop but then says that " no bowler in cricket can impart enough backspin to affect the flight of the ball" ! He is talking after he retired and sounds like a man who never saw a flipper because as we know the backspin on the flipper causes crazy swing and flight. Bradman played in the same club, state and national teams as Grimmett whilst he was developing the flipper.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The photos of the flipper in Philpotts coaching manuals from 1972 and 75 show him delivering the flicker not the flipper! In one he says it is flicked out like an offspinner, which is the reverse flipper.

I have found a goldmine of old cricket books at the old teachers college which is attached to the uni, everything I need. Percy Beames is another writer who should tell us something. Moyes is another. I cant wait till tommorrow. I have made a list off all the books I need and they are all available to me, some are not for loan as they are rare
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I reckon I've got the slider at last - it just seems to be a natural progression from the leg break. I've been waking around with a ball flicking it Flipper style a la Grimmetts mystery ball so it top spins. At the same time I'm alternating with a flicking the standard grip further and further round and today I realised I was doing it out of the back of my hand and gave it a go and it seemed to work and this evening I threw a few Grimmettesque over - spinning flippers and they went well. In the short term I'll just keep flicking the wrist to get a real natural feel for it and maybe look at both of these after Sept and try and develop them for next season?

The learning curve that I've gone through in the last month has been enormous, if I bowl now I just naturally bowl Leg Breaks it is in such an exponential difference between now and say April.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;352655 said:
Here in a wisden of 1962 it is clearly stated that he learnt it from dooland Wisden - Richie Benaud
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More evidence Saddo, thanks. They are talking about a topspinning offspinning flipper and not the backspinning one Warne made famous ! I notice he does not credit Grimmett for its invention, but he at least does credit Dooland.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah this is bizarre - why is everyone in denial of all these potential variations, why does Benaud claim to have invented the Flipper when 10 years or so before Grimmett had not only invented Benauds bog standard "Club cricket" version but had moved on to look at the Flipper variations including over-spinning Flipper that the likes of us are working on as we speak and as you've informed us many of these greats see as being physically impossible and yet Clarrie did all this in the 1930's and 40's!! It's madness or maybe ignorance?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I read the bit about the Wrong Wrong Un in Malletts book and to me it sounded as though he was talking about twisting the wrist and arm round further but still keeping the 2 fingers up 2 fingers down grip and not the Flipper grip. So I'm still sticking with the name 'Gipper' as mine's the same principle with the wrist and arm but the release is the Flipper grip/release.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;352689 said:
Another good game today - Wrist Spin Bowling: Stop Press - Thompson takes 4 for 32 off 5 overs
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Man you are on fire and you haven't started wearing the cap and long sleeves yet. I cant wait to read the latest blog entry on this one. I read were Tony Lock used to wear long sleeves as it gave more protection for his arms when he went for caught and bowled and his elbows hit the ground and not to disguise his wrists or maybe bent arm.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;353108 said:
I reckon I've got the slider at last - it just seems to be a natural progression from the leg break. I've been waking around with a ball flicking it Flipper style a la Grimmetts mystery ball so it top spins. At the same time I'm alternating with a flicking the standard grip further and further round and today I realised I was doing it out of the back of my hand and gave it a go and it seemed to work and this evening I threw a few Grimmettesque over - spinning flippers and they went well. In the short term I'll just keep flicking the wrist to get a real natural feel for it and maybe look at both of these after Sept and try and develop them for next season?

The learning curve that I've gone through in the last month has been enormous, if I bowl now I just naturally bowl Leg Breaks it is in such an exponential difference between now and say April.
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By slider do you mean Philpotts backspinning topspinner and the slider that Jenner demos, sometimes called the Doug Ring slider ? It is just a progression from the legbreak and once mastered as a concept it is not that hard.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

So you have taken 8 wickets for 76 runs off 19 overs so far ?

This photo of Philpott releasing a flipper is definately the overspinning flicker. The thumb is on top of the ball at release and the fingers are on the outside, completely upside down to say Warnes backspinning flipper. No wonder he describes it as an offspinners ball.

Bradman said Grimmett disguised this flicker delivery by a quick turn of the wrist at the end to make it appear as a leg break. The backspinning flipper is easier to disguise but can still be picked out of the hand if you can watch the thumb closely.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah that's the one a la' Jenner and as you say it's a progression of the Leg Break. Mine still breaks towards off but doesn't bounce half as much.

I had a look at the file but I haven't got MS word to open the file. What I'll do is open it tomorrow at work and convert it to word pad or note pad. I'll be able to have a look at it then.

Actually I'll try again now using notepad.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;353113 said:
Yeah that's the one a la' Jenner and as you say it's a progression of the Leg Break. Mine still breaks towards off but doesn't bounce half as much.

I had a look at the file but I haven't got MS word to open the file. What I'll do is open it tomorrow at work and convert it to word pad or note pad. I'll be able to have a look at it then.

Actually I'll try again now using notepad.
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I find if I dont get that slider quite right I get a big legbreak albeit a slower turner and as such is a pretty foolproof ball. When it comes out straight it is a LBW special. Benaud was a master of that ball.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;35269 This photo of Philpott releasing a flipper is definately the overspinning flicker. The thumb is on top of the ball at release and the fingers are on the outside said:
Do you mean the picture on his manual on leg spin ie the bible. When i saw the picture the first time i could not understand why the ball was held in that way. It looked so different from the warne/jenner one. In this book though he calls it the flipper.
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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Macca your a genius!

Continuing from yesterday when I said I've been walking around flicking the ball Flipper style over the top of the hand to impart the Top Spin I've been doing it again today and have now started to bowl it and the good news is that I can easily get it up over the 22 yards and keep down the offside, it's a bit loopy as I'm bowling it slow but it turns and it rushes on and it's looking pretty sinister. I may even try it in a game this Sunday as I reckon over the next couple of days I could get it together.

The secret just seems to have been the fact that I've just spent a whole week or so flicking it over the top of my hand. What I'll have to do is film another video with the release action or do we want this kept a secret?

Again this just reinforces the fact that these deliveries have been lost in the mists of time and or they're just seen as being impossible (Jenner & Mallett)? If you think about it just the basic deliveries are shrouded in mystery, how often is it that you come across a Leggie that bowls the whole bag of basic options?

I'm really surprised at how quickly it's come together.

Lastly what is this delivery called other than 'The secret ball'? I reckon we called call it 'The McFlipper' after you Macca!!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;352694 said:
Do you mean the picture on his manual on leg spin ie the bible. When i saw the picture the first time i could not understand why the ball was held in that way. It looked so different from the warne/jenner one. In this book though he calls it the flipper.
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Yes there is something strange going on. Does Philpott describe the flipper as a backspinner anywhere? Pre warne I dont think so. If you follow his instructions and photos in his 1973 and 75 you wont get a backspinner but an overspinner. Any way I hope to have Doolands story of the flipper in his own words in a few hours.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Well that topspinner was called a " flicker" by Bradman and the other players. Flipper does not become widely used until after Benaud and then only referring to the backspinner.
Mallett and Jenner are not aware of its existence. Philpott is aware and so were lots of former players like Keith Miller. Just thinking about it Miller was Philpotts first captain in club cricket and miller was great mates with Pepper. Pepper lived the rest of his life in England and showed his flipper to quite a few English guys after he retired and some of them are still alive so they would know. Pepper had several flipper balls. backspinner, topspinner and it sounds like he could bowl it as a offbreak as well.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Dave , I cant find my other of copy " spinners yarn" in the chapter on backspinners and flippers does he nominate the flipper as a backspinner at any stage? I cant remember.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;352695 said:
Yes there is something strange going on. Does Philpott describe the flipper as a backspinner anywhere? Pre warne I dont think so. If you follow his instructions and photos in his 1973 and 75 you wont get a backspinner but an overspinner. Any way I hope to have Doolands story of the flipper in his own words in a few hours.
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I do not have the book with me, but he differentiates the flipper from other backspinners. He says Benaud called the other backspinner besides the flipper as the overspinning backspinner. But as discussed he also says that all top leggies had other variations of the backspinner that they guarded religously. He states that he started experimenting with backspinners towards the twilight of his carreer and laments that he would have been much more successful had he discovered this before. This though is all from memory.

It is interesting though that he talks about the flipper in different ways before and after warne. Who thought warne the flipper and slider? Was it jenner, or philpott, that is interesting as well. Maybe Benaud chipped in as well as I think jenner did not know how to bowl it.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;353110 said:
I read the bit about the Wrong Wrong Un in Malletts book and to me it sounded as though he was talking about twisting the wrist and arm round further but still keeping the 2 fingers up 2 fingers down grip and not the Flipper grip. So I'm still sticking with the name 'Gipper' as mine's the same principle with the wrist and arm but the release is the Flipper grip/release.
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Mallett gets that wrong too, he has not read Grimmetts 1948 book closely. Grimmett started with an iverson style flick with a googly action and got a legbreak instead of the offbreak. But he abandons that method and he says he applied the finger clicking spin that produces the flipper to a wrongun delivery style and found it produced a legbreak. He called it his wrong wrongun. At first he thought this might be the best way to deliver the flipper style finger clicking method. But it was a bit of an evolutionary dead end ,which is one of the reasons it took him 12 years, he was not sure how to use his discovery . He did not see great potential in the backspinning flipper and it was Dooland that really worked it up to what we call a flipper these days.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Do most of the descriptions of the backspinning flipper say it will turn like a little legbreak if it is not delivered with the seam perfectly aligned? All the descriptions of the flicker ( overspinner) say it turns as an offbreak if it does not set out from the hand with perfect overspin. Dave as our resident flipper bowler should know.

flicker may not be a good name for the overspinner it may lead to confusion with Iverson or Mendis, but it is what Bradman and his contemporaries called Grimmetts mystery ball. I still cant find who started calling the backspinning delivery a flipper.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I've just had another 1/2 an hour bowling 'The Flicker' but also bowling the other variations of the Flipper. I reckon I've got it down to 5 distinctly different variations all of which I reckon have got applications in the game and most of which I could actually use in a game. So here they are going round the loop

(1). Your "bog standard" Flipper as demo'd by Messr's Warne and Jenner on the internet, using index and middle finger and Thumb to put backspin on the ball.
(2). Your Clarrie Grimmett Flipper which is much the same ball but you use 4 fingers and the thumb. This ball because I think you have much firmer grip on the ball you can bowl faster with more spin and you get a lot of swing with it (In Swing to RH bat).
(3). Now twist the wrist 90 degrees so that the palm of the hand is facing the bat. This then spins out of the hand spinning clockwise and is an off-break ball.
(4) . Turn the wrist another 90 degrees so that your little finger is closer to the bat and your thumb is pointing to your face. This is the 'Over-spinning' Grimmett secret ball that everyone is in denial of - This is 'The Flicker' and it looks like a killer of a delivery!
(5) Now rotate the hand 270 degrees anti-clockwise (You have to twist your arm) and you have 'The Gipper'. Which is like a Leg Break.

Again I have to credit so much to the fact that I've been clicking the ball in my hand over the top all week and this has just given me a real feel for the delivery and made it so that my wrist it seems is far more supple, the version (3) delivery which I've never been able to do well tonight was working exceptionally well, just because of the each at which it came out of the hand with the flick. I'm staggered at how good all these deliveries are and especially 'The Flicker'. I reckon with a few more weeks working on The Flicker it is going to be a killer ball used in conjunction with my Leg Break!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;352698 said:
Do most of the descriptions of the backspinning flipper say it will turn like a little legbreak if it is not delivered with the seam perfectly aligned? All the descriptions of the flicker ( overspinner) say it turns as an offbreak if it does not set out from the hand with perfect overspin. Dave as our resident flipper bowler should know.

flicker may not be a good name for the overspinner it may lead to confusion with Iverson or Mendis, but it is what Bradman and his contemporaries called Grimmetts mystery ball. I still cant find who started calling the backspinning delivery a flipper.
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Dave's apparently mainly goes straight on or has some legspin. Mine when i get it right has offspin. So it all depends on the wrist
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;353254 said:
Mallett gets that wrong too, he has not read Grimmetts 1948 book closely. Grimmett started with an iverson style flick with a googly action and got a legbreak instead of the offbreak. But he abandons that method and he says he applied the finger clicking spin that produces the flipper to a wrongun delivery style and found it produced a legbreak. He called it his wrong wrongun. At first he thought this might be the best way to deliver the flipper style finger clicking method. But it was a bit of an evolutionary dead end ,which is one of the reasons it took him 12 years, he was not sure how to use his discovery . He did not see great potential in the backspinning flipper and it was Dooland that really worked it up to what we call a flipper these days.
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I'm glad you put us right on that - is that in Taking Wickets? I like the sound of Wrong Wrong Un.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;352697 said:
I do not have the book with me, but he differentiates the flipper from other backspinners. He says Benaud called the other backspinner besides the flipper as the overspinning backspinner. But as discussed he also says that all top leggies had other variations of the backspinner that they guarded religously. He states that he started experimenting with backspinners towards the twilight of his carreer and laments that he would have been much more successful had he discovered this before. This though is all from memory.

It is interesting though that he talks about the flipper in different ways before and after warne. Who thought warne the flipper and slider? Was it jenner, or philpott, that is interesting as well. Maybe Benaud chipped in as well as I think jenner did not know how to bowl it.
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Bob Simpson said he showed the slider " backspinning topspinner" to Warne. Simpson was surprised no-one had shown Warne untill then, this is before his test debut and after Warne had learnt the flipper.

Jack Potter taught Warne the flipper properly, but Jim Higgs had shown Warne how to bowl it a couple of years before that but Warne could not get it right. Potter says warne picked it up in a week but not from scratch as he had mucked around with it a bit before that after Graf got Higgs to try and teach Warne the flipper.

Potter said Warne was wildly innaccurate at first and the ball would hit the sides and the top of the net until he could control the flipper. but he worked on it with a tennis ball ( as did Grimmett and Bosanquet in their experiments) and cracked how to do it. The ball he aquired turned deadly once he mastered it.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The flicker , like Philpott says, seems more of an offspinners ball, but Bradman says Grimmett disguised it with a turning of the wrist after delivery.

So as soon as you flick it you have to make your wrist assume a more leg break looking finish to the delivery.

The thumb points up in delivering the ball and then quickly you must turn the wrist and make the thumb point down. That is how I read Bradmans description.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Blogs updated with the details for the bowling - the highlights are that this puts me in the top 7 bowlers in the club, but if you read through it there's some details for one of the kids in the team and his stats for the last week are staggering! I also had a bat today and ended up not out and with my highest batting score for G&CCC - but don't get too excited my previous high was only 7!

Wrist Spin Bowling: Grays & Chadwell v Eastside

It's 1.30 am and I gotta go to bed!

No LBW's . This means I've bowled 19 overs, conceded 76 runs and taken 8 wickets, so it looks like I need to tighten up on my runs conceded?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;353258 said:
I'm glad you put us right on that - is that in Taking Wickets? I like the sound of Wrong Wrong Un.
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He does mention it in his 1930 book but at that stage he is only 2 years into his experimenting and he has discovered the finger clicking spin but has not worked out how to apply it to overarm bowling and he seems to think that bowling it like the gipper might be the best use to put it too.
He was still working it up to 22 yards at this stage. He does not bowl it untill 1940 in a big game and by then his career was nearly over. He had been bowling in first class cricket for 30 years by then! That would be like someone starting in 1979 and be still going now! And he never bowled a no-ball in all that time.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Well done Dave. Can we expect to see you in the Ashes this year? :D

It has been very quite on the bowling front for me. Later in the week, I'm going to have my first serious bowl in about 4 weeks. My sprained finger has finally returned to normal. It has been rather annoying. I'm looking forward to immensely.

I'm expecting to spray them all over the place though.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;353261 said:
Was it Philpott that said that he'd shown it to kids in training sessions but wasn't able to get it down the track for the full 22 yards?
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Jenner wrote that in the email he sent me. I dont think Philpott bowled the flipper, at least at test level. Benaud says in his autobiography that Philpott could spin the ball more than Warne. He says the same about Sincock. Wether they spun it as fast he does not say, but that is the big difference , Warne was a big and fast spinner of the ball.
But Philpott could get the ball to audibly hum or buzz and that is the best anecdotal evidence of a big spinner. If you start to hear the ball buzz like a bee then you are getting close to first class selection.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Bruce Dooland wrote a short coaching chapter in 1958, where he sets out his method of legspin. He is a disciple of Grimmett and one who recommends long hours of practise. He says a leggie should feel more tired after his net session than he would after a big match. His description of his flipper is convoluted and slightly confusing but he does say enough to make it clear his was a backspinner.
Bradman wrote a legspin coaching chapter in his " Art of Cricket" which is very interesting ,especially as Bradman was a legspinner and played in the same club, state and national team as Grimmett. There is a lot of stuff about Grimmetts bowling, including field settings that Grimmett used.
Bradman talks about drift and flight from spin bowlers he calls drift " spin swerve" he describes the effect offspin legspin and topspin have on the spun ball but then tells us not to worry about backspins effect as no bowler in cricket can impart enough backspin on a cricket ball to effect it unlike a golf ball or tennis ball!
Well Warne could but I also take that as evidence that Grimmett hardly ever bowled the backspinning flipper except as a rare variation which is what Grimmett himself said,because Bradman would have reached a different conclusion on the effects of backspin if he had seen the flipper.
The only reference Bradman makes to a flipper is that he calls a "flipper" a legbreak bowler that uses mainly his fingers and not his wrists. These "flippers" as Bradman calls them dont flick their wrists but merely roll or flip them. He says these legspinners are more accurate but less dangerous than the big wrist flickers, He cites Englands Eric Hollies as a "flipper". Bradman elsewhere says Grimmetts mystery ball was called the " flicker" and it sounds like the overspinning reverse flipper. Bradman only calls it a flipper in later life, after Benaud and perhaps even Warne , I have to check the latter. Very interesting.

I am going to get Colin Mc Cools autobiography today and see if he has any answers as well
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Hey Dave, I would have verbally reminded Taj that s**t bowling beats s**t batting every time. That would have to have been your sweetest wicket so far, having the last laugh and all ?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Macca I've just done a big entry on my blog about the Flicker, hopefully it doesn't use too much of your work. Have a look at it and if you think it's a bit too much of your work let me know and I'll remove it. I still haven't looked at the stuff you sent yesterday as I had a bit of a funny turn here last night on the computer - I though I'd had a stroke and was on the verge of dying, so had to go to the Doc's today to check it out as I felt rough all day at work. Turns out that it was stress related and the fact that I'd had a massive caffeine over-dose and as a consequence suffered a massive bout of heart palpatations. It scared the s**t out of me that's for sure! But consequently I was somewhat pre-occupied at work and didn't think to look at the email.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah definitely Macca, but I'm a bit Grimmettesque on that front, I don't respond to that kind of stuff verbally but then would look to prove otherwise as I did! That was very satisfying I have to say. I think after all my hard work trying to correct my Googly syndrome and all the hours of practice I put in I do seem to be at the minute finally reaping the rewards. How long it'll last I don't know because I'm still kind of half in mind that this is a fluke phase. But then again I now seem to be bowling with what seems to be a proportionally larger knowledge of strategies and options that are available to me and a lot of this is down to reading about Grimmett. One of the key things that I've got from the book that I've just finished tonight is his basic strategy. Be accurate and be able to put the ball where you want it, but vary the speed, flight and length, if you can do that you haven't got to get it to spin a great deal, just as long as it does spin. My experience to date is those attributes alone cause major concerns and as long as you're attacking the Off-stump it forces the bats to play the ball. If they're playing the ball and you're varying your basics it causes problems and as I'm seeing from my current form forces them into making mistakes.

But more interesting is that with each game I'm now seeing other options, I've noticed that with an Off-side field they (batsmen) try and get any ball that goes anywhere near the middle or leg stump off down the Legside. It struck me yesterday before I bowled Taj that this was an option he was looking to use and if he'd continued to persevere I thought I'd put a ball down Middle and Leg with Top Spin on it to try and force an edged ball out to Square Leg or maybe high one for the keeper. So I reckon I'm learning now at a fairly quick rate?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

My post about consistency seems to have gotten lost among this big thread.

I'm having consistency problems when i bowl in nets, its either wide or short.

Any tips guys??
 
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