Wrist Spin Bowling

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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yes gundalf i think edge of willow would concur wiyh you that it has some overspin. I do not see it like you somehow and cannot convince myself that it is not mainly sidespin
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I've got nets tomorrow night for 2 hours. I'm scheduled to bat for 20 minutes first, I'll just try and defend the wicket and not get bowled out I reckon. As for my bowling having just read a section in the book on top spinners and dip combined with the use of Flippers (Peter Philpott - The art of wrist spin bowling). I reckon I may have a go at this and see how they deal with me mixing these two up. I think that may be a good strategy as I'm still bowling the Leg Break over a shorter distance trying to get the hang of it. I just feel if I try and go long too soon I'll end up bowling wrong uns as always. If I bowl Top spinners usually they tend to go towards leg like Wrong Uns as well, so it might be helpful to try and correct this feature of my Toppie while I'm mixing them up with the Flipper. What's currently exciting me is the idea of dip, I read somewhere that if you're trying to produce dip you can put a piece of string up and get the ball over it but then land it short of the wicket to test your 'dipability'. Again this is one of those more complex aspects that I've over-looked with regards to my own bowling but recognise it in the bowling of others. So it'll be good to produce it in my own bowling and I'm quite optimistic about being able to do it.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;341805 said:
I've blown the picture up on my blog Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah that grip is definitely erring towards the unorthodox, but it's got some potential and worth a look at I reckon - could be useful to me. Looking at it - it looks as though it's going to work as you say with putting spin on it that's make it turn like a bit leg break? But if you hold the ball like this it feels as though you're going to have to have biggish hands/fingers? I found there may be some mileage in putting the ball into the hand using the normal 2 up 2 down grip and then twisting the ball round so that the finger runs along the seam as in this shot, but I was rained off and couldn't really have a good look at it.

The thumb position is odd as well, it looks as though it's tucked in. When I first had a look at the image I initially thought it was a Top spinner but it's obviously not.
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Well I just did a quick run through my leg-break action in front of a mirror, stopping at about the point in the photo and it looked similar(although the viewing angle is different in the photo so I'm still unsure whether it is an over-spun leg-break or a side-spun leg-break)to the photo. My fingers aren't spread as wide and my thumb isn't tucked in(it is slightly lower on the ball), but otherwise it looked much the same.

What exactly do you mean by twisting the ball so your fingers run along the seam? In the photo the seam looks to me like it is in a normal position for a two fingers up, two down grip.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

A good way to overcome wrongun syndrome in kids, especially kids that learn the wrongun before the legbreak, which a lot of kids do without coaching, is to simply try and get them to bowl a seamer and the first ball that comes out is often a legbreak or a topspinner.
Some coaches find this by accident when they are purposely trying to turn a wrist spinner into a seamer because the wronguns they are bowling are so wildly inaccurate and unfortunately some coaches keep coaching them seam and we lose another legspinner to the game. But some coaches use this trick on purpose to coach out the wrongun. It's along the same lines as EOW when he talks of attaining his topspinner by thinking of reaching for a wrongun.
A tip from Grimmett to disguise your wrongun is to let it go before your hand reaches it's normal delivery point. Most do this naturally but it's worth checking.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

No I think you're all probably right, this is the ball just as it's leaving his fingers, it's just that I used the image as the basis for the starting position e.g. it's in the hand as you start in this position and then you bowl - thing is it kind of works.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

That's almost how I corrected my wrong un. Just by making a concious effort to bowl straight with the wrist and the palm of the hand facing the batsman, the emphasis then of then leaving the 3rd finger on the ball till the last moment then puts just a bit of spin on it to turn it into my small leg break, it's just that there's no flick there that then makes it turn big. But it's not a wrong un and that for me was what mattered.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;341869 said:
No I think you're all probably right, this is the ball just as it's leaving his fingers, it's just that I used the image as the basis for the starting position e.g. it's in the hand as you start in this position and then you bowl - thing is it kind of works.
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Ah, I see. That makes sense.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

How do you mean bowl a seamer macca. This is backspin when so bowled compared to top or side spin, or do you mean that their mind is thinking they are bowling a seamer while their wrist is in a different position that their brain thinks. Sorry for being complicated.
When you release the ball are you still with the side on position or do you release once you have partially or completely pivoted to front on? I know eow tried to explain before but it is still a black hole for me. What i mean by experimenting in these two postions , if i release the ball when side on the seam points to first slip, if i release when i have turned further the seam points to gully/point. Can you take a ball in your hands and do this while standing up just simulating the release first when side on then when frontish on and tell me what your conclusions are please. Sorry I am hopless at explaining.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

dave, are you working on the big leg-break to try and make it your stock ball or do you see your biggest legspinner as a variation to be used rather sparingly more as a surprise ? What about everbody else? Does anybody have any tips or experiences of leg spin and indoor cricket?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;342018 said:
dave, are you working on the big leg-break to try and make it your stock ball or do you see your biggest legspinner as a variation to be used rather sparingly more as a surprise ? What about everbody else? Does anybody have any tips or experiences of leg spin and indoor cricket?
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No not neccesarily - I just want to be able to vary the amount of spin I can produce, so if I choose to get it to spin more it's intentional rather than random. I think more than the Biggun I'd like to be able to say to myself - right this next one is going to dip viciously, or this ones going to drift and then come up with the goods - generally just have a lot more control over it and be confident that I can make the ball spin more or less when I desire. Basically be a confident Leg Break bowler.

I can't help with any advice on indoor games, but I don't see why you wouldn't be played as a wrist spinner and the lighter balls spin and drift more easily I was told week at nets.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Ever since I first posted a possible way to contact Peter Philpott and perhaps upload videos for his coaching appraisal on page 71, I have noticed a certain amount of understandable reticence on all our behalves in approaching the great man. Of course it takes time to consider what to actually ask him, perhaps something in the book we can't quite understand?

I was fortunate enough to meet Mr Philpott and attend two of his coaching clinics back in the old Tooheys Country Cup days. The first thing you should know about him is that he is a thorough gentleman and probably the antithesis of what a lot of people expect of an Austalian test cricketer. I suppose you could call him almost professorial. The main thing I remember was how he was just spinning the ball hand to hand, it made us weekend legspinners look like kids with a couple of simple yo-yo tricks and he was like on of those professional Coca-Cola yo-yo experts that used to travel the world and amaze crowds. When he spins his legbreak hand to hand not only has it tons of revs, that seam spins perfectly around the ball like the rings of saturn circle that planet.
He most probably would be pleased that there is a thread discussing his book in detail, he may even be interested in Daves' excellent photography of the different deliveries and their potential as coaching aids. I just hope the site is still active, perhaps no-one much uses it and it became neglected.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The Edge Of Willow;342761 said:
Okay sadspinner, I found a video with a nice shot of Warne bowling taken from the stump cam. It is quite blury as Warne is in the middle of his action, but it should be good enough to make judgement about when the release point is.YouTube - Shane Warne 1st Ashes Test 1993

The shot in question is at 2:50 in the video.
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I love the look that Gooch gives Warne around the 54 second mark. One of utter resignation to his fate. I suppose it's also bordering on a look of disgust.

As for the dismissal at the 2.50 mark, it was partly down to Smith playing with 'soft hands' but also due to the sheer amount of revs on the ball - amazing really.

Look at the drift he gets on the next ball at around 3.00 - I wouldn't know where to begin trying to play that.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Macca - are you talking about my site being neglected?

If so - no, the situation is I'm just trying to get time to work on a graphic that I can use in photo shop that helps to explain the rotation of the ball as it moves through the air, along with some other graphics relating to drift. I'm also kind of waiting on the 'Taking Wickets' book to see if that adds anything to my knowledge on the subject.

This weekend I filmed a little clip of me demonstrating the flipper action close up in much the way you've explained Philpott throwing his ball from one hand to the other that demonstrates how extreme the back spin is. In doing it I also sussed the Grimmett method! So watch out for that soon. That blog I don't envisage being completed for another couple of months or so and even then as I learn more I'll update it.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The Edge Of Willow;342761 said:
Okay sadspinner, I found a video with a nice shot of Warne bowling taken from the stump cam. It is quite blury as Warne is in the middle of his action, but it should be good enough to make judgement about when the release point is.YouTube - Shane Warne 1st Ashes Test 1993

The shot in question is at 2:50 in the video.
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It looks clearer I reckon from behind and it looks at the point of vertical, why what's the question - I seemed to have missed out on this discussion?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I think Macca means the website he left a link to ie mycricketguru. Me thinks our problem is we feel a bit inadequate about our pedigree/prowess at leg spin and he might think we/I am a lost cause not being young and talented, even though you say he is a gentleman down to the bones. What I think we are dying for is his version of the great masterpiece of a book he wrote in the form of a video/dvd/youtube. We all know that his book is so much more detailed than the videos we have access to on the net. So in summary we have a problem not in what was written on the book, but on visualising what he says. So SEEING it done on video ie the under/round/over arm routines, the drills, the wrist positions in slow mo etc. We know that would be too much to ask for, but having said that if he ever gets down to doing this he will leave a legacy that is rightly his of nearly single handedly reviving leg spin bowling. I feel that after warne's and kumble's retirement(is that the word?),leg spin is fading again into oblivion. Only pakistan has one that plays regularly. Even ausralia only used mcgain and am sure they are toying with the idea of ommitting him for england.

That was the reason for the poor response macca. It was nothing personal. On the other hand dave is trying to do something formidable in creating a site from scratch from the scraps of information and dedication he has to create a museum for this type of bowling for the younger generation.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;342766 said:
It looks clearer I reckon from behind and it looks at the point of vertical, why what's the question - I seemed to have missed out on this discussion?
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Sadspinner can't work out at what point of the pivot to release at. That's why I picked the stump cam shot; it shows what direction the body is facing at release.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Ah I'm with you now! (Bit slow off the mark with that one). Yeah definitely agree with you on the neccessity for someone to put something back in that's a bit more youngster friendly. I kind of imagine that Warne might do one day, there's that clip on youtube where he's bowling at that kid which kind of indicates in a way that he's got a sense of fun and some empathy with kids, so who knows? One of us will have to pretend to be a kid maybe or ask on the behalf of our kids to submit a question.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Just posted this but it didn't seem to work - For Peter Philpott - Peter my son's 7 years old and is a Wrist Spinner. He's not sure how it happens but he can bowl a little leg break, but he can see when I bowl that my wrist is twisted round (Going round the loop) and is trying to copy me, should I stop him from bowling wrong uns or let him experiment? PS we're massive fans of your book on this forum - http://www.bigcricket.com/forum/t58854-76/

Dave Thompson (England)

Later.... Tried it again with the exclusion of the www. bit because I'm under the impression some websites block your contact with them if they recognise that you're trying to create a link to another website. That didn't work either, maybe Macca can give it a go using my message as the website my have a Pom filter or something!!! ;-)
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;342772 said:
Would this help him at all do you think? Turn the sound off though as I don't think the sound track is a good idea anymore!!! YouTube - Someblokecalleddave front slow motion
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That is exactly the kind of shot that I was looking for. It should give a good idea, even though your action back then looks far from ideal(it looks like you follow through goes too round to far, although it is somewhat hard to judge as I am unsure what angle the video is taken at.).
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

What do we reckon to Philpotts quote "Those that don't bleed have never spun". I've never got anywhere near that kind of finger wear, so that's kind of suggesting that I'm not using my 3rd finger enough? I knew a Kiwi girl that could bowl decent leg spin and she said that at the start of every new season she expected to get blisters on her spinning finger too.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah you're right it's one of the things I've got to work on, but never mind that we need to Hail Macca for bringing to the fore the Clarrie Grimmett Flipper normally over-looked but cos of Macca I've been looking at it and tonight out on the field I've been bowling it and it is stupendous - absolute marvellous! Why - because man it drifts like banana - it's amazing! And on top of that I can bowl it very accurately. I can't wait for nets tonight!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;342264 said:
What do we reckon to Philpotts quote "Those that don't bleed have never spun". I've never got anywhere near that kind of finger wear, so that's kind of suggesting that I'm not using my 3rd finger enough? I knew a Kiwi girl that could bowl decent leg spin and she said that at the start of every new season she expected to get blisters on her spinning finger too.
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A very accurate description in my experience; my spinning finger has been in varying degrees of blister for weeks. It has only just healed to form a hard callous at the point where the ball sits on my finger.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I can attest that it can bleed if the callous on your finger breaks and you keep spinning, you'll get blood but most of the time just a very hard callous on your spinning finger(s)
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;342943 said:
Naughty dave, it swings not drifts. Remember we want to impress Mr philpott if he is reading our site.
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Doh! I thought it was the other way around - you're going to have to explain this to me or is it just because the seam is vertical moving through the air rather than perpendicular/side ways to the forward motion? I'm going to have to consult the bible! But that aside yes it worked and I've had an excellent session in the nets tonight with Top spinners that dipped and Grimmett Flippers that bent through the air like bananas causing all sorts of problems.

Additionally they spun away from their obvious trajectory like and offspin ball - which then suggests some diagonal spin?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I got an opportunity to practice with an another club since my team was having a match on that day and no one turned up for practice.
I had a good time at practice and was getting the batsmen 1-2 times out and blocking them to play their shots.
The coach had earlier warned his batsmen of my bowling and to watch my bowling very carefully but still every batsmen struggled to bat against me.
It had the coach very delighted and thanked me for being a part of the practice.
He seemed interested in having me for his team but i choose not stress further on that and just concentrated on my practice.
One thing i noticed is that having bowling from around the wicket and from the edge of the crease with pitching the ball on leg and turning it away from the Right hand batsmen was sight to be seen.
That much of spin was troubling the batsmen as they were uncertain as to how much spin the next ball will have.I was concentrating on that factor.
Also having a wicket keeper helped me a lot as i was getting a lot of stumping as the batsmen very trying to set out and hit me in the air.
During this bowling session;i then noticed that not far away my 3-Seniors were watching all this.
I was lucky to be bowling to an ex-mumbai ranji player good batsmen against pace and spin.I did not managed to get him out but troubled him with my line and length that he could not bat against me as he was comfortable against the other bowlers.
I got a good work-out with bowling from 7:15 AM to 9:30AM almost close to 2 hours.
In between every bowler had dropped their bowling for rest but i continued in-spite of being tried for a moment.
The coach seemed impressed as he told his spinners that "U guys should not give up bowling as that is a bad sign".
It was one of the best days as i got admiration and appreciation from the other club.
I am sure that must have kept the eyes rolling of my seniors as by the end of the session they were pretty close to the net and could hear all of it.
One thing i benefited from net session is the Ex-ranji Player giving advice and tips about batsmen and it was helpful to me.
Few of the things he said were very important from a bowler and batsmen point of view.
I am hoping that next Sunday he will come and i will get to bowl to him and get to know him personally as well.A lot of cricketing knowledge can be shared from him as he is a coach also.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;342943 said:
Naughty dave, it swings not drifts. Remember we want to impress Mr philpott if he is reading our site.
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I think Dave was right the first time. Swing is when the ball moves thanks to the motion of the air over the rough side with respect to its motion over the shiny side. Drift is due to the spin of the ball. Fast bowlers swing; spin bowlers drift.

... I think... but don't listen to me, I'm American. :eek:
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The Edge Of Willow;342302 said:
A very accurate description in my experience; my spinning finger has been in varying degrees of blister for weeks. It has only just healed to form a hard callous at the point where the ball sits on my finger.
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Now I'm worried, I reckon I must be gettting something fundamentally wrong as my finger is hardly effected! Doh!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Cotton Eye Joe;342982 said:
I think Dave was right the first time. Swing is when the ball moves thanks to the motion of the air over the rough side with respect to its motion over the shiny side. Drift is due to the spin of the ball. Fast bowlers swing; spin bowlers drift.

... I think... but don't listen to me, I'm American. :eek:
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Well if the spin bowler gets the seam in a position where the ball will swing they can. The flipper is one of the balls that can do so because it is often bowled with an upright seam, and since it is a flipper, back-spin.

Whether Dave's ball was swinging or drifting we can't really tell because we don't have enough information. He did say that it had some side-spin as well as back-spin, so that opens the possibility that it was drift. But it also could have been swing. We'd need to know the condition of the ball, where the seam was facing, and which way the ball moved.

And welcome to Big Cricket and the wrist spin thread.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I do not get blisters either on my spinning finger ie the middle finger as I already have a callous from writing. When I use my ring finger though which I do not do normally use as my accuracy is much worse, it gets red and a bit sore when spinning from hand to hand especially with a new ball and prominent seam. Having said that I do not think I rip the ball as much as some of you.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;342745 said:
How do you mean bowl a seamer macca. This is backspin when so bowled compared to top or side spin, or do you mean that their mind is thinking they are bowling a seamer while their wrist is in a different position that their brain thinks.
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I am not sure how it works sadspinner, it's just a "circuit-breaker" I have seen work on young players maybe 10 years or younger to stop them being a wrongun bowler every ball, and try and get them to bowl legbreaks. But it has to be backed up by constant coaching to stop them slipping back into their old ways, it's not a miracle cure that fixes the problem. They shouldn't need a wrongun for a few years, but then comes the problem of teaching them how to bowl it again, and that can be hard, but at least you can remind them that at one stage they could bowl one.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

They reckon because of his loose grip Warne never developed a bump on his spinning finger till well into his test career, whilst most legspinners have a noticeable permanent callous on their third finger ( this gives rise to the secret handshake amongst leggies!) well before they're selected for their country.
Sorry about the confusing grammar dave, but I meant the cricketguru site being neglected.
The following is advice for kids from one of the worlds' greatest ever legspin bowlers...." A young bowler, I think, should first be taught the value of rhythm in his run, delivery and follow-through. He must cultivate a nice easy stride to the wicket, and eliminate all inclination to stutter or hesitate.
This rhthym can be aquired by a simple method. As you run up to the wicket, count out loudly and evenly, keeping in step with the count. It is important that you count out loud, as otherwise you will relax the count to the rhythm of your steps, instead of the reverse.
When you get to the wicket the first time, you may find that you are on the wrong foot. Therefore you will have to adjust your starting-place either by shortening, which is preferable, or by lengthening your run, or by altering the length of your stride. But dont stretch out too much. Take a natural stride and you will not tire so quickly. It helps to start on your left foot if you are a righthand bowler, and on the right foot if a lefthander. This helps to give correct balance at delivery.
Always run straight. It gives you direction at the start. Never run at an angle with the mistaken idea that it may deceive the batsmen. It is more likely to destroy your own control.
The run must always be the same, so that it becomes mechanical. You can than concentrate on the actual bowling of the ball...." C.V.G.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Cotton Eye Joe;342982 said:
... I think... but don't listen to me, I'm American. :eek:
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I dont know about that, there's lots for cricketers to learn from baseball. But EOW is right about swing, in fact I'm surprised by how much Grimmett talked of using swing and applying swingbowler tactics and techniques to spin bowling, and his "mystery deliveries" in particular.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

No wonder we love clarrie so much. So true . We discussed rhythm about 3 weeks ago. When i forget everything, and just listen to my rhythm my accuracy is much better. When some child is looking at me, or am thinking of where my wrist is , how much my finger must rip, where my foot will land, how i will pivot etc, it all goes downhill. I calculated my run up by starting my run up on the baseline of a tennis court and ran in and bowled with eyes closed when i felt in good rhythm. I then counted my steps, and used this as my run up. As regards the foot you start on , yesterday i seemed stuck till i started the first step on my left foot as you say.

Therefore i agree wholly that the best bowlers are usually fluid and rhythmic. I think the only spinner I know now that is not rhythmic is Paul Harris, but he seems to be improving. I think you have identified a very important point.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;343086 said:
I am not sure how it works sadspinner, it's just a "circuit-breaker" I have seen work on young players maybe 10 years or younger to stop them being a wrongun bowler every ball, and try and get them to bowl legbreaks.
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It sounds like it is to stop them bringing their wrist over in the wrong'un position. If you bowl a seamer the front of your hand is facing the batsmen, which is similar to where it is when you bowl a leg-break. I would guess that it is done with a leg-break grip though; it doesn't make any sense to have them switch to a seamer grip, as doing so would seem counter-productive(especially if they already bowled seam up as well)to me, as they would be bowling seam-up, rather than spin.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

EOW first of all thank you for the warne video. I tried to release yesterday during the pivot and the ball turned much more even though not on every ball.

As regards the drift/swing problem. Swing=turbulence with shiny and rough side deciding which way it will swing and the way the seam points,and also athmospheric condition and BACKSPIN not overspin or sidespin. It depends on different turbulence on both sides of the ball. The magnus effect. Drift depends on the magnus effect. You never see a swing/fast bowler DRIFT the ball they only swing it as they use backspin. That seems to be the theory. Having said that there is controversy over reverse swing even though i think a researcher at NASA , i think his surname is mehta formulated some theory by experimenting in a wind tunnel.

Macca as eow said the grip is different for seam up, but if this has worked over the ages experience is better than logic

And dave i thought your flippers were like leg breaks before not like offspinners(i mean the way they break after pitching). Mine as well keep low and tend to break towards leg stump. Having said that, I am tending to bowl them too full and a foot outside offstump ie worthless. And do you mean grimmett flipper with four fingers on top and thumb at the bottom like the picture i had posted of kaneria and the warne/jenner flipper with the fore finger and middle finger only on top? Oh and any answer from the mycricketguru
 
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